c4countdown

Is this just what happens in an economic downturn?

It's what happens when the Tories are in.

I'm quite proud to say I'm from Hull now. Lots of black people I see in these news images. Coincidence? I think not.

I'm genuinely a bit confused by all this. The Tottenham stuff I understand (by which I mean I can see a cause, not that I think it's ok or whatever) because of that shooting, but what's sparked the rest of it? Is it just people thinking "huh, rioting looks kinda fun, let's give it a go"? Or is there more shit I've missed? (I've been busy.)

Just came on to see if there was a topic on this. In the meantime I've spoken to a friend whose boyfriend got a chase and a few digs and his iphone nicked about half an hour ago. He was filming some lads looting a jewelers.

I'm quite confused as well. I guess the only real uniting factor is that the people doing the rioting all share a massive hatred of the police, right? I guess it boils down to scumbags spotting a free for all and having fck all else to do?

Andy Wilson wrote: I guess it boils down to scumbags spotting a free for all and having fck all else to do?

Seems like a fair description of the police, yep.

Yeah it seems to be just people with nothing better to do and nothing to lose going out and fucking shit up. Maybe all this tension has been bubbling under and it's taken the shooting to act as the spark.

In fairness to the anti-police sentiment, every po-lease I've ever met has been racist.

Ryan Taylor wrote:I'm quite proud to say I'm from Hull now. Lots of black people I see in these news images. Coincidence? I think not.

Troll.

Comic relief: http://www.thisblogrules.com/2010/03/do ... years.html

Jon O'Neill wrote:In fairness to the anti-police sentiment, every po-lease I've ever met has been racist.

Not quite. I've got a sister in the Met (she now runs research projects for Scotland Yard) and she is absolutely definitely positively not. No comment on the other sister in West Mercia Plus many forces have had quite a big drive towards positive discrimination, although I'm not claiming for a minute that numbers are anywhere near right yet.

Just as an observation, (if I've got this right) youths from ethnic minorities are disaffected and feel vicitimised and discriminated against by the police, subjected to random stop and searches for weapons etc., so they respond with rioting, violence, and looting. It's not exactly Ghandi, is it?

Lesley Hines wrote:Plus many forces have had quite a big drive towards positive discrimination, although I'm not claiming for a minute that numbers are anywhere near right yet.

Do you consider this a good thing? I didn't think it was legal in employment. Also, I'm not sure the term should ever be used without scare quotes or preceded by "so-called".

Edit - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action#Europe

In the UK, any discrimination, quotas or favouritism on the grounds of sex, race and ethnicity is generally illegal in both education and employment.[22][34] Specific exceptions include: The 1998 Good Friday Agreement required that the Police Service of Northern Ireland recruit equal numbers of Catholics and Protestants in order to eliminate the service's perceived bias towards Protestants.
The Labour Party passed the Sex Discrimination (Election Candidates) Act 2002, allowing them to use all-women shortlists to select more women as election candidates.

Apparently the one shop in Clapham that has escaped looting is the branch of Waterstones there. Hmm, wonder what that says about the looters...

Andy Wilson wrote:Just came on to see if there was a topic on this.

I like the thought that someone would come on to a forum for a game show about words and numbers in response to the worst rioting we've seen in this country in twenty years.

But I'm not surprised. The level of debate (for instance) that c4c had about Proportional Representation was a credit to the people that participated, and was more informative and well argued than ones I saw elsewhere. Three cheers for c4c. At the moment I can't wrap my head around these riots. I'm not black and/or poor, I'm not a policeman or a politician. But

Jon O'Neill wrote:Yeah it seems to be just people with nothing better to do and nothing to lose going out and fucking shit up. Maybe all this tension has been bubbling under and it's taken the shooting to act as the spark.

seems to sum it up quite well, from my comfortable white middle class perspective, though I don't think that the 'tension' has nearly as much reason for being there as it had through the 80s & 90s.

I just came here because it was populated by mainly people from England. I'm a little ashamed to admit that it does excite me a little that this is possible. Maybe if we can get some banners done up and get down the front we can convince sky news it's a protest to bring back COC?

What was it Malcolm X said? Chickens coming home to roost?

Michael Wallace wrote:Is it just people thinking "huh, rioting looks kinda fun, let's give it a go"?

Yep. And they might get themselves a free pair of trainers. Race/police hatred/recession/Tories are all red herrings as far as I can see. I'm somewhat annoyed by the whole thing as it meant I had to walk home from the pub. AND the pub stopped serving 10 minutes early.

Matthew Tassier wrote:

Michael Wallace wrote:Is it just people thinking "huh, rioting looks kinda fun, let's give it a go"?

Yep. And they might get themselves a free pair of trainers. Race/police hatred/recession/Tories are all red herrings as far as I can see.

I wouldn't assume that. Someone got this thing started and they must've been motivated by something more than the free trainers. Of course you get your usual troublemakers, as with the university fees protests and anything else. That might be a small or a large fraction of the participants, it's too early to say, but it doesn't invalidate the original point.

Gavin Chipper wrote:

Lesley Hines wrote:Plus many forces have had quite a big drive towards positive discrimination, although I'm not claiming for a minute that numbers are anywhere near right yet.

Do you consider this a good thing? I didn't think it was legal in employment. Also, I'm not sure the term should ever be used without scare quotes or preceded by "so-called".

As it happens I don't, particularly. I think they should employ the best person for the job regardless of any physical factors. However, I would like to see a fairly equal representation as I think it's too easy for prejudiced ideologies to become imbued when you don't have fair representation across the board. Also, I doubt they would describe it as specifically as positive discrimination, but there have very definitely been targeted recruitment drives within ethnic sectors, that I consider to be a good thing.

Anyway, AFAICS from the news coverage most of the perps seemed to be white hoodies, which rather renders it a moot point.

Charlie Reams wrote:I wouldn't assume that. Someone got this thing started and they must've been motivated by something more than the free trainers. Of course you get your usual troublemakers, as with the university fees protests and anything else.

This feels different from previous violent occasions. I might be wrong, but when raw emotions were on display in the miners' strikes, in the poll tax riots, and student protests, I don't recall the focus on looting that seems to be behind a lot of what's going on now. In those earlier ones, the violence was against authority, not Boots The Chemist and JJB Sports, on the whole, if my recollection is correct.

Brian Moore wrote: I don't recall the focus on looting that seems to be behind a lot of what's going on now.

Whose focus are we talking about here? There's certainly a media focus on that. I don't defend the violence, looting or arson, but if you get distracted by that then you miss the serious part of what's happening.

Charlie Reams wrote:Whose focus are we talking about here? There's certainly a media focus on that. I don't defend the violence, looting or arson, but if you get distracted by that then you miss the serious part of what's happening.

Unfortunately I only have the media to go on (though I haven't seen any live TV news), so can only rely on various filtered sources of information. But, as I say, I don't recall this reported level of looting on previous violent occasions. On the one hand, I suppose it's better if they are nicking bikes and TVs instead of trying to kill or injure people, but it somewhat undermines the political point.

EDIT - Paul Vallely of The Independent senses a difference too. "Today's riots have been characterised by opportunist looting on a scale which befits our era of wanton materialist consumerism. Looters have been seen trying things on for size or browsing through vitamin supplements in smashed up shops to find the particular brand they crave. This is rioting-meets-shopping. It does not, as one eye-witness put it, feel like an "appeal from the heart of the ghetto" so much as an opportunity "to get a nice new pair of trainers". Not so much desperate as decadent."

Charlie Reams wrote:

Matthew Tassier wrote:

Michael Wallace wrote:Is it just people thinking "huh, rioting looks kinda fun, let's give it a go"?

Yep. And they might get themselves a free pair of trainers. Race/police hatred/recession/Tories are all red herrings as far as I can see.

I wouldn't assume that. Someone got this thing started and they must've been motivated by something more than the free trainers. Of course you get your usual troublemakers, as with the university fees protests and anything else. That might be a small or a large fraction of the participants, it's too early to say, but it doesn't invalidate the original point.

Obviously the original trouble in Tottenham was loosely based around the protests about the police killing of the suspected criminal there. I don't believe the copycat recreational looting in other areas is anything other than opportunist.

Jon O'Neill wrote:Yeah it seems to be just people with nothing better to do and nothing to lose going out and fucking shit up. Maybe all this tension has been bubbling under and it's taken the shooting to act as the spark.

In fairness to the anti-police sentiment, every po-lease I've ever met has been racist.

Ryan Taylor wrote:I'm quite proud to say I'm from Hull now. Lots of black people I see in these news images. Coincidence? I think not.

Troll.

What even the black and Asian ones?
The demographic seems to be teenage boys rather than ethnic minority.
From what I've seen of Hull, Ryan, its been hit too.........oh sorry, Hull always look s like that, my bad.

Charlie Reams wrote:What was it Malcolm X said? Chickens coming home to roost?

Lets hope it doesn't turn into 'rivers of blood' eh!!!

Charlie Reams wrote:

Matthew Tassier wrote:

Michael Wallace wrote:Is it just people thinking "huh, rioting looks kinda fun, let's give it a go"?

Yep. And they might get themselves a free pair of trainers. Race/police hatred/recession/Tories are all red herrings as far as I can see.

I wouldn't assume that. Someone got this thing started and they must've been motivated by something more than the free trainers. Of course you get your usual troublemakers, as with the university fees protests and anything else. That might be a small or a large fraction of the participants, it's too early to say, but it doesn't invalidate the original point.

How is the American media covering the situation?

Right then chaps (is chaps gender-neutral yet?), how do we fix Broken Britain?

Michael Wallace wrote:Right then chaps (is chaps gender-neutral yet?), how do we fix Broken Britain?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04clpd7h0b0

Michael Wallace wrote:Right then chaps (is chaps gender-neutral yet?), how do we fix Broken Britain?

Put Countdown back on.

This isn't a coincidence.

Marc Meakin wrote:

Jon O'Neill wrote:Yeah it seems to be just people with nothing better to do and nothing to lose going out and fucking shit up. Maybe all this tension has been bubbling under and it's taken the shooting to act as the spark.

In fairness to the anti-police sentiment, every po-lease I've ever met has been racist.

Ryan Taylor wrote:I'm quite proud to say I'm from Hull now. Lots of black people I see in these news images. Coincidence? I think not.

Troll.

What even the black and Asian ones?
The demographic seems to be teenage boys rather than ethnic minority.
From what I've seen of Hull, Ryan, its been hit too.........oh sorry, Hull always look s like that, my bad.

Sounds to me like it's a large proportion of twenty/thirty-something opportunists. And there's a correlation with areas with large black populations, but that only explains as far as I can see some of the occurrences in London, and not much at that. Kudos to the shopkeepers banding together in some areas to protect their streets. That's a definite plus for local shops over chains!

/Incoherent commentary

I hate the police! Time for a free telly and armfuls of tracksuits!

I think it will soon come to Yorkshire.

Michael Wallace wrote:Right then chaps (is chaps gender-neutral yet?), how do we fix Broken Britain?

Should've bought the breakdown cover.

Spoke to my sister whose chap's also in the Met - he's been working 16 hour days and says at times they're literally fighting for their lives. Whatever you think about the police as an organisation, spare a thought for the individuals who are just doing their job and have families with small children at home.

FWIW, I've met some police who have been utter tossers, but most of the ones I've met have been decent people. Maybe I only see that side of them because I tend not to break the law.

Lesley Hines wrote:Whatever you think about the police as an organisation, spare a thought for the individuals who are just doing their job

Bit early for the Nuremberg defence isn't it?

Charlie Reams wrote:

Lesley Hines wrote:Whatever you think about the police as an organisation, spare a thought for the individuals who are just doing their job

Bit early for the Nuremberg defence isn't it?

Not at all. I'm not defending any tosspots or any levels of tosspottery said tosspots choose to aspire to. I just know my sister's at home with two small kiddies worried about her chap in what is a genuinely dangerous situation.

Jon O'Neill wrote:

Ryan Taylor wrote:I'm quite proud to say I'm from Hull now. Lots of black people I see in these news images. Coincidence? I think not.

Troll.

The whole thing is just extraordinary and frightening how law and order has broke down and how brain dead morons are mocking the state. It's hardly political, hell, these people wouldn't know what politics was if Boris Johnson hit them flush in the face with a baseball bat. Sure there seem to be many "reasons" but for me it comes down to intelligence of which none of these people have any between them. I've always quite disliked thick people and this does nothing to change my view.

Marc Meakin wrote: From what I've seen of Hull, Ryan, its been hit too.........oh sorry, Hull always look s like that, my bad.

Spot on. You'd like the grammar used up here too.

Very good Ryan. I dont think the people that orchestrated this are thick though. Does anyone else like the irony that phone hacking is being used to track them down.

Marc Meakin wrote:Very good Ryan. I dont think the people that orchestrated this are thick though. Does anyone else like the irony that phone hacking is being used to track them down.

I think a lot of them are. They have no morals which a lot of the time is linked with levels of low intelligence. If you have a bit of something going on upstairs then you know it is wrong to do what people are doing and you don't do it. Of course it doesn't mean if you're an idiot you riot and loot, just that if you do riot and loot you tend to be a dolt.

What is annoying to see is how the ordinary citizen just stands back and watches it happen. There are plenty of videos circling the web of people just filming what is happening. Why the fuck are they filming it? Why aren't they trying to prevent the criminal acts? There's a video of the solitary guy who set fire to the Miss Selfridges store. In the video there are tens of citizens just walking by and turning a blind eye to a guy stood their committing arson. Seriously what the fuck? Heaven only knows why people do not stand up for their beliefs and values. I have broken up quite a handful of fights in my time when they break out after a night out. Many of the people fighting are bigger than me (that's not hard to be since I'm a skinny twat) but that doesn't stop me from trying to break up something which I fundamentally think is wrong. Violence is wrong 99% of the time. I quite liked how the Sikhs came out in force to protect what they believe in.

Ryan Taylor wrote:

Marc Meakin wrote:Very good Ryan. I dont think the people that orchestrated this are thick though. Does anyone else like the irony that phone hacking is being used to track them down.

I think a lot of them are. They have no morals which a lot of the time is linked with levels of low intelligence. If you have a bit of something going on upstairs then you know it is wrong to do what people are doing and you don't do it. Of course it doesn't mean if you're an idiot you riot and loot, just that if you do riot and loot you tend to be a dolt.

What is annoying to see is how the ordinary citizen just stands back and watches it happen. There are plenty of videos circling the web of people just filming what is happening. Why the fuck are they filming it? Why aren't they trying to prevent the criminal acts? There's a video of the solitary guy who set fire to the Miss Selfridges store. In the video there are tens of citizens just walking by and turning a blind eye to a guy stood their committing arson. Seriously what the fuck? Heaven only knows why people do not stand up for their beliefs and values. I have broken up quite a handful of fights in my time when they break out after a night out. Many of the people fighting are bigger than me (that's not hard to be since I'm a skinny twat) but that doesn't stop me from trying to break up something which I fundamentally think is wrong. Violence is wrong 99% of the time. I quite liked how the Sikhs came out in force to protect what they believe in.

I quite like my teeth as they are, that's the main reason I'd think before diving into the fray. Someone about to torch a shop I'd say is also likely to quite happily give me a dented skull for my trouble. Of course lots of them wouldn't, but I don't wish to risk my ongoing health for the sake of a coin toss.

Ian Volante wrote: I quite like my teeth as they are, that's the main reason I'd think before diving into the fray. Someone about to torch a shop I'd say is also likely to quite happily give me a dented skull for my trouble. Of course lots of them wouldn't, but I don't wish to risk my ongoing health for the sake of a coin toss.

You would die a hero!

Ryan Taylor wrote:

Ian Volante wrote: I quite like my teeth as they are, that's the main reason I'd think before diving into the fray. Someone about to torch a shop I'd say is also likely to quite happily give me a dented skull for my trouble. Of course lots of them wouldn't, but I don't wish to risk my ongoing health for the sake of a coin toss.

You would die a hero!

Yeah, but you'd still be dead. And the person who killed you would probably live longer in infamy than you would in praise anyway.

If you survived you could then come and brag about it on an internet forum.

Dunno what sort of criminals you have in Hull but, and I don't consider myself a particularly cowardly person, there's no way I'd be getting involved in someone torching a shop. Beating up another human being? I'd have to make a judgment call, because at the end of it all I value my own safety more than that of other people.. especially random people on the street, and ESPECIALLY more than the safety of buildings/prosperity of businesses.

Ryan Taylor wrote:What is annoying to see is how the ordinary citizen just stands back and watches it happen.

Him indoors isn't the type to stand by and watch it happen. He confronted some troublemakers in our local, so they waited for him outside - well over half an hour, mind - and pulled a knife on him. (He laughed at them - it helps being built like a brick outhouse.)
He confronted some bloke who groped me while I was escorting my disabled mother down some steps, so said weirdy punched him. I objected and got punched too for my trouble.
He confronted two guys who were chasing some kids down the street so they both set about him and he ended up needing stitches in his face.

All completely true stories.

The problem is with being a decent person prepared to help is usually the troublemakers are bigger bastards prepared to go further than you

Lesley Hines wrote:

Ryan Taylor wrote:What is annoying to see is how the ordinary citizen just stands back and watches it happen.

Him indoors isn't the type to stand by and watch it happen. He confronted some troublemakers in our local, so they waited for him outside - well over half an hour, mind - and pulled a knife on him. (He laughed at them - it helps being built like a brick outhouse.)
He confronted some bloke who groped me while I was escorting my disabled mother down some steps, so said weirdy punched him. I objected and got punched too for my trouble.
He confronted two guys who were chasing some kids down the street so they both set about him and he ended up needing stitches in his face.

All completely true stories.

The problem is with being a decent person prepared to help is usually the troublemakers are bigger bastards prepared to go further than you

He does also have a conviction for assault though, right? So maybe not a great example of the merits of sticking up for oneself.

Charlie Reams wrote:He does also have a conviction for assault though, right? So maybe not a great example of the merits of sticking up for oneself.

True, although that was where someone threatened him with a bottle several times outside in a club (off CCTV, but the 20yo guy had a record for burglary, assault, and theft), and he got caught retaliating (unarmed) inside.

All the confrontations there were verbal - nothing more than a "leave it out eh? No-one wants this" type thing.

I have no convictions at all, and have never hit anyone in my life, and got punched by a weirdo when I verbally objected that he randomly decided to grope me whilst supporting an elderly disabled woman.

It's not the merits of sticking up for oneself, it's sticking up for someone else. It's a judgment call.

I'm not arguing that he deserves to be a criminal, I'm just pointing out that (given the system) I have a fair amount of sympathy with people who don't intervene.

Lesley Hines wrote:

Ryan Taylor wrote:What is annoying to see is how the ordinary citizen just stands back and watches it happen.

Him indoors isn't the type to stand by and watch it happen. He confronted some troublemakers in our local, so they waited for him outside - well over half an hour, mind - and pulled a knife on him. (He laughed at them - it helps being built like a brick outhouse.)
He confronted some bloke who groped me while I was escorting my disabled mother down some steps, so said weirdy punched him. I objected and got punched too for my trouble.
He confronted two guys who were chasing some kids down the street so they both set about him and he ended up needing stitches in his face.

All completely true stories.

The problem is with being a decent person prepared to help is usually the troublemakers are bigger bastards prepared to go further than you

Yeah, these all seem like pretty good reasons not to get involved.

Yes my grandad ended up with a criminal record for throwing one punch. He was one of the gentlest, nicest guys you could imagine but he was 6' 3" and heavy set so obviously you're not allowed any sort of advantage if you're the good guy and there's a scumbag creating a confrontation. Basically stay out of it if you're a good-natured honest sort.

It's pretty conclusive that standing back and watching, turning a blind eye or just not bothering to intervene is the best thing to do. This is a pretty fucked up world to live in when this is the case.

I understand your frustration, Ryan, but I am sure your attitude will change somewhat when you have a partner and a child.
I would expect most people would fight for their own self preservation and their nearest and dearest but generally unless I have no choice i am not going to intervene in a situation involving property rather than human life.

I would like to know if anyone agrees with my assertation that most of this lawlessness stems from the ending of corporal punishment in this country. The slow eroding of discipline and in a lot of cases parenting in general.
being able to use 'smacking' to discipline a child, if not abused, is a good thing IMO (in my opinion Gavin).
Yes I know that there have been some sadistic people, mainly teachers, IME(oh look it up Gavin FFS)who abused this, but stopping corporal punishment because of this abuse of power would be like banning all fire arms after what happened in Norway etc.

Oh and I think its time to ressurect the stocks for all those caught.certainly better than the one day in jail that seems to be the punishment for some (ok one) of these looters.

Marc Meakin wrote:I would like to know if anyone agrees with my assertation that most of this lawlessness stems from the ending of corporal punishment in this country. The slow eroding of discipline and in a lot of cases parenting in general.
being able to use 'smacking' to discipline a child, if not abused, is a good thing IMO (in my opinion Gavin).
Yes I know that there have been some sadistic people, mainly teachers, IME(oh look it up Gavin FFS)who abused this, but stopping corporal punishment because of this abuse of power would be like banning all fire arms after what happened in Norway etc.

Oh and I think its time to ressurect the stocks for all those caught.certainly better than the one day in jail that seems to be the punishment for some (ok one) of these looters.

People have been saying that "discipline is being eroded" forever. When you were off your tits on psychedelic drugs for the entire 1970s (I imagine this is how you turned out like you have) your elders were probably saying the same about you.

I have never taken a recreational drug in my life.
So apart from being anti police (one day you might just need one) what's your take on it..........maybe its a protest at the rising tuition fees.

Spare the rod, and spoil the fish.

Ryan Taylor wrote:It's pretty conclusive that standing back and watching, turning a blind eye or just not bothering to intervene is the best thing to do. This is a pretty fucked up world to live in when this is the case.

This is ridiculous. You think you are some sort of Jon Corby for stopping a fight once. How about the real problems in the world that you're doing nothing to help? I'm talking life and death situations... why don't you relocate to The Congo and look after orphans? Why are you standing back and watching, turning a blind eye to and just not bothering to intervene with their HIV problem?

The fact is, if you spent your whole life worrying about other people's problems, you'd have no time left for anything else. So you live your own life. Which is fine... just don't sit on your high horse when you're 99.99999999999999% as guilty as everyone else of what you're accusing the fucked-up world of as the world is itself.

Jon O'Neill wrote:

Marc Meakin wrote:I would like to know if anyone agrees with my assertation that most of this lawlessness stems from the ending of corporal punishment in this country. The slow eroding of discipline and in a lot of cases parenting in general.
being able to use 'smacking' to discipline a child, if not abused, is a good thing IMO (in my opinion Gavin).
Yes I know that there have been some sadistic people, mainly teachers, IME(oh look it up Gavin FFS)who abused this, but stopping corporal punishment because of this abuse of power would be like banning all fire arms after what happened in Norway etc.

Oh and I think its time to ressurect the stocks for all those caught.certainly better than the one day in jail that seems to be the punishment for some (ok one) of these looters.

People have been saying that "discipline is being eroded" forever.

Citation needed

Jon O'Neill wrote:

Ryan Taylor wrote:It's pretty conclusive that standing back and watching, turning a blind eye or just not bothering to intervene is the best thing to do. This is a pretty fucked up world to live in when this is the case.

This is ridiculous. You think you are some sort of Jon Corby for stopping a fight once. How about the real problems in the world that you're doing nothing to help? I'm talking life and death situations... why don't you relocate to The Congo and look after orphans? Why are you standing back and watching, turning a blind eye to and just not bothering to intervene with their HIV problem?

The fact is, if you spent your whole life worrying about other people's problems, you'd have no time left for anything else. So you live your own life. Which is fine... just don't sit on your high horse when you're 99.99999999999999% as guilty as everyone else of what you're accusing the fucked-up world of as the world is itself.

Hangover?????

Marc Meakin wrote:I have never taken a recreational drug in my life.
So apart from being anti police (one day you might just need one) what's your take on it..........maybe its a protest at the rising tuition fees.
Spare the rod, and spoil the fish.

I'm not anti-Police... I'm anti-Policemen-I've-met. I'm not in a position to make a judgment on the Police as a whole, but stuff like this doesn't help their image.

I don't really know where to start about the lack of corporal punishment being the cause of this.

Marc Meakin wrote:

Jon O'Neill wrote:

Marc Meakin wrote:I would like to know if anyone agrees with my assertation that most of this lawlessness stems from the ending of corporal punishment in this country. The slow eroding of discipline and in a lot of cases parenting in general.
being able to use 'smacking' to discipline a child, if not abused, is a good thing IMO (in my opinion Gavin).
Yes I know that there have been some sadistic people, mainly teachers, IME(oh look it up Gavin FFS)who abused this, but stopping corporal punishment because of this abuse of power would be like banning all fire arms after what happened in Norway etc.

Oh and I think its time to ressurect the stocks for all those caught.certainly better than the one day in jail that seems to be the punishment for some (ok one) of these looters.

People have been saying that "discipline is being eroded" forever.

Citation needed

1952: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=n6 ... line&hl=en

That's a joke. There's obviously no way of citing that statement.

Jon O'Neill wrote:1952: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=n6 ... line&hl=en

That's a joke. There's obviously no way of citing that statement.

I meant to comment at the time, but when Phil linked that Not the 9 O'clock News clip I thought it was pretty funny that they were saying precisely the sort of things that are being said now, and that presumably at the time of them making that they were already cliches.

Marc Meakin wrote:

Jon O'Neill wrote:

Marc Meakin wrote:I would like to know if anyone agrees with my assertation that most of this lawlessness stems from the ending of corporal punishment in this country. The slow eroding of discipline and in a lot of cases parenting in general.
being able to use 'smacking' to discipline a child, if not abused, is a good thing IMO (in my opinion Gavin).
Yes I know that there have been some sadistic people, mainly teachers, IME(oh look it up Gavin FFS)who abused this, but stopping corporal punishment because of this abuse of power would be like banning all fire arms after what happened in Norway etc.

Oh and I think its time to ressurect the stocks for all those caught.certainly better than the one day in jail that seems to be the punishment for some (ok one) of these looters.

People have been saying that "discipline is being eroded" forever.

Citation needed

“Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers.”

Of course in the centuries inbetween it may have been different.