c4countdown

Just added the following:

BISULFATE
BISULFATES
BOBOTIES
DESULFURISATION
DESULFURISATIONS
DESULFURISE
DESULFURISED
DESULFURISES
DESULFURISING
DESULFURIZATION
DESULFURIZATIONS
DESULFURIZE
DESULFURIZED
DESULFURIZES
DESULFURIZING
DESULPHURISATIONS
DESULPHURIZATIONS
DISULFIDE
DISULFIDES
GROUSEST
HEARTING
PARTIER
PARTIERS
POLYSULFIDE
POLYSULFIDES
PRAWNINGS
RENEGUER
RENEGUERS
SISSES
SULFA
SULFADIAZINE
SULFAMATE
SULFAMATES
SULFAMETHOXAZOLE
SULFANILAMIDE
SULFANILAMIDES
SULFAPYRIDINE
SULFASALAZINE
SULFATE
SULFATES
SULFIDE
SULFIDES
SULFITE
SULFITES
SULFONAMIDE
SULFONAMIDES
SULFONATE
SULFONATED
SULFONATES
SULFONATING
SULFONATION
SULFONATIONS
SULFONE
SULFONES
SULFONYL
SULFONYLS
SULFUR
SULFURATED
SULFURED
SULFUREOUS
SULFURIC
SULFURING
SULFURISATION
SULFURISATIONS
SULFURISED
SULFURIZATION
SULFURIZATIONS
SULFURIZED
SULFUROUS
SULFURS
SULFURY
SULPHONYLS
SULPHURISATIONS
SULPHURIZATIONS
THIOSULFATE
THIOSULFATES
TOLLINGS
TOUGHED
TOUGHING


And removed these:
AERIE
AERIES
DESULPHURISER
DESULPHURISERS
DESULPHURIZER
DESULPHURIZERS
GORSY
LOURDAN
LOURDANS
MENIALLY
NAILERIES
NAILERY
PAINTIER
PAINTIEST
PROEMIAL
SISSIS
TAXIES
TAXYING
TETANISE
TETANISED
TETANISES
TETANISING
TETANIZE
TETANIZED
TETANIZES
TETANIZING
TETANOID

(I decided to overrule DC on FEINTER and FEINTEST and leave them in, since they're just plain wrong about that.)

Thanks to Mike Brown and others for their hard work in tracking these down.

sissis^? Noooo!

You're a cool dude.

Charlie Reams wrote:(I decided to overrule DC on FEINTER and FEINTEST and leave them in, since they're just plain wrong about that.)

Something odd here. According to Lexplorer PARTIER is now valid, but was still disallowed here at the same time.

Liam Tiernan wrote:Something odd here. According to Lexplorer PARTIER is now valid, but was still disallowed here at the same time.

Oops, forgot to reload the dictionaries. Should be all good now.

Charlie Reams wrote:I decided to overrule DC on FEINTER and FEINTEST and leave them in, since they're just plain wrong about that.

Could you elaborate on that decision for the benefit of mutts like me who don't understand it? The only definition I can find of FEINT as an adjective is 'denoting paper ruled with lines'. Paper either is so ruled or it isn't; it doesn't make sense (to me) for there to be a comparative form of it.

Taxies? If it's not the correct plural isn't it the verb form? Sorry if I'm being thick, I haven't got the 3r. Amazed they've taken out taxying too, just cos it look less ugly than taxiing. Chuffed they've added the RENEGUER/S though, 'bout time too.

Phil Reynolds wrote:

Charlie Reams wrote:I decided to overrule DC on FEINTER and FEINTEST and leave them in, since they're just plain wrong about that.

Could you elaborate on that decision for the benefit of mutts like me who don't understand it? The only definition I can find of FEINT as an adjective is 'denoting paper ruled with lines'. Paper either is so ruled or it isn't; it doesn't make sense (to me) for there to be a comparative form of it.

'Sa variant of FAINT, innit (orig.)? Plus it's a verb and a noun too (as in faking during a fight), but I still can't see a case for a comparative and superlative.

Lesley Hines wrote:'Sa variant of FAINT, innit (orig.)?

You mean it was a variant of FAINT, in the mid-19th century. It's not listed as a current variant, which suggests to me that it shouldn't be treated as such for derivation purposes. But, as I said, I'd like to hear Charlie's reasoning.

(NB. The online Oxford says sternly: "Do not confuse faint with feint.")

The definition in Collins - "having lines ruled across the width of the paper" (Collins Concise English Dictionary, 1978) - is similar to Oxford but perhaps a little clearer. Sorry about the rubbish punctuation.

I've often wondered about adjectives which don't allow a comparative or superlative. Are these indicated in any way in the ODE, or is it down to interpretation of the definition? If the latter, it means that the so-called one syllable rule is merely a criterion for not rejecting an -er or -est word, but not for automatically accepting it.

As FEINTER has been offered twice recently and, in a rare burst of consistency, DC has twice rejected it, I would infer that the same would happen next time. Surely the message from Apterous should be that FEINTER and FEINTEST are best avoided?

Edit: I've answered by own question I think. Is it [attrib.]? If so, I suppose FEINTER and FEINTEST get in on a technicality.

Lesley Hines wrote:Taxies? If it's not the correct plural isn't it the verb form? Sorry if I'm being thick, I haven't got the 3r. Amazed they've taken out taxying too, just cos it look less ugly than taxiing. Chuffed they've added the RENEGUER/S though, 'bout time too.

The verb is TAXIS. Unfortunately, whoever writes the usage examples at OUP didn't get that memo...



As for FEINTER/FEINTEST, there are arguments on both sides really. FEINT is given as an adjective and it's monosyllabic, so the rules say you can automatically have -ER and -EST. But as Phil points out it doesn't look like they make any sense. It's not helped by the fact that ODE3 doesn't indicate whether adjectives are comparable or not.

It depends whether you apply the rules strictly or whether you have to enforce a "comparatives and superlatives have to at least make some sense" rule. The former interpretation would give players more certainty, but looking back at old posts about monosyllabic adjectives on this forum, it's been pointed out that you'd have to allow nonsense like PISSEDER and PISSEDEST.

On balance it doesn't seem *that* unfair to disallow it. (Although I might not have had that opinion if Graham Moonie-Dalton had seen CARBONARA first. )

Graeme Cole wrote:It's not helped by the fact that ODE3 doesn't indicate whether adjectives are comparable or not.

As I've just added above, isn't is indicated by the [attrib.] marker? I don't have an ODE3 but I can't imagine it's changed.

Examples are LAST, FRONT and MOCK, though not, surprisingly, MALE. Lexplorer seems to follow the pattern.

Edit: I see it isn't what I thought it was, although there does seem to be some correlation. I await a full explanation from those who know.

Clive Brooker wrote:

Graeme Cole wrote:It's not helped by the fact that ODE3 doesn't indicate whether adjectives are comparable or not.

As I've just added above, isn't is indicated by the [attrib.] marker? I don't have an ODE3 but I can't imagine it's changed.

No, FEINT isn't indicated with [attrib.], but that wouldn't mean it's comparable (or not) anyway. The introduction to the ODE3 defines [attrib.] thus:

ODE3 page xiv wrote:[attrib.]: used to mark an adjective which is normally used attributively, i.e. comes before the noun which it modifies, e.g. certain in a certain man (not the man is certain, which means something very different). Note that attributive use is standard for many adjectives, especially those in specialist or technical fields: the [attrib.] label is not used in such cases.

Clive Brooker wrote:Examples are LAST, FRONT and MOCK, though not, surprisingly, MALE. Lexplorer seems to follow the pattern.

In those examples, Lexplorer appears to follow the pattern that adjectives with [attrib.] (LAST, FRONT, MOCK) *aren't* comparable. (MOCKER is valid but that's an agent noun.) But then, PISSED also doesn't have [attrib.], and Lexplorer gives PISSEDER and PISSEDEST as invalid, so I don't think [attrib.] or the absence of it is necessarily an indicator of comparability. Really what's needed is something like [incomparable].

Thanks Graeme. As you'll see from my edit I'd already realised I was a bit off-target. On the other hand, at risk of getting completely out of my depth, I still think the correlation might mean something in that adjectives which are used attributively might tend to be non-comparable. The example in question, FEINT, appears to be covered by the note on technical or specialist use. I think there may be another reason for words like PISSEDER/EST not being allowable.

IIRC the introduction to the dictionary says that single-syllable adjectives are assumed to have comparatives and superlatives formed in the usual way, and they are therefore not specified. Given that a player was given a second appearance after they lost for having RIGHTEST disallowed, and RIGHTEST is a pretty odd word, I thought this issue was closed. Like any rigid rule applied to English, it occasionally creates some odd words. I suspect there is a desire to editorialise from people on Countdown who think they know better than the dictionary, but they're just as likely to forget their arbitrary decision and allow FEINTER next time. So I'm going to stick to the general principle for now.

Charlie Reams wrote:IIRC the introduction to the dictionary says that single-syllable adjectives are assumed to have comparatives and superlatives formed in the usual way, and they are therefore not specified. Given that a player was given a second appearance after they lost for having RIGHTEST disallowed, and RIGHTEST is a pretty odd word, I thought this issue was closed. Like any rigid rule applied to English, it occasionally creates some odd words. I suspect there is a desire to editorialise from people on Countdown who think they know better than the dictionary, but they're just as likely to forget their arbitrary decision and allow FEINTER next time. So I'm going to stick to the general principle for now.

What about PISSEDER and PISSEDEST then?

Anyway, I'm with you on the FEINTER/FEINTEST thing. Those that are arguing against it are essentially arguing for less concrete rules and more arbitrary interpretation. I'd rather have clear rules and let the odd weird word through.

Why aren't JUSTER and JUSTEST allowed on Apterous?

Charlie Reams wrote:IIRC the introduction to the dictionary says that single-syllable adjectives are assumed to have comparatives and superlatives formed in the usual way, and they are therefore not specified.

It actually says that adding -er and -est to make comparative and superlative forms of one-syllable adjectives is regarded as regular and so such forms aren't explicitly specified, which is very different from saying that such adjectives all have comparatives and superlatives.

Given that a player was given a second appearance after they lost for having RIGHTEST disallowed, and RIGHTEST is a pretty odd word, I thought this issue was closed. Like any rigid rule applied to English, it occasionally creates some odd words.

Fair enough, you've explained your thinking on this, which is what I asked for. I can (just about) imagine using RIGHTER/RIGHTEST colloquially in a sentence though ("All right answers are right, but some are righter than others"), whereas I can't imagine any situation in which one would use FEINTEST.

This just came up in Spoilage; it looks like a typo to me, but I haven't the dictionary to check: http://www.apterous.org/lexplorer.php?g ... PERS&dic=0. The singular (GROUNSDKEEPER) is also valid.

Gavin Chipper wrote:I'm with [Charlie] on the FEINTER/FEINTEST thing. Those that are arguing against it are essentially arguing for less concrete rules and more arbitrary interpretation.

Nope, I'm arguing that some adjectives refer to attributes in which different instances can be compared while other adjectives simply refer to a quality that an object either does or doesn't possess. It's like the mass noun rule for nouns - some nouns can be counted, others can't. The problem here is that the ODE doesn't specify which adjectives are comparable in the same way that it specifies which nouns are countable.

Is there an up-to-date Countmax file?

Phil Reynolds wrote:

Gavin Chipper wrote:I'm with [Charlie] on the FEINTER/FEINTEST thing. Those that are arguing against it are essentially arguing for less concrete rules and more arbitrary interpretation.

Nope, I'm arguing that some adjectives refer to attributes in which different instances can be compared while other adjectives simply refer to a quality that an object either does or doesn't possess. It's like the mass noun rule for nouns - some nouns can be counted, others can't. The problem here is that the ODE doesn't specify which adjectives are comparable in the same way that it specifies which nouns are countable.

Exactly - it doesn't specify so it's open to arbitrary interpretation. Let's not pretend that it will always be clear-cut.

Gavin Chipper wrote:Exactly - it doesn't specify so it's open to arbitrary interpretation.

Yes, which is undesirable. I'm not in favour of it, which is what your earlier post seemed to me to be suggesting.

Phil Reynolds wrote:

Gavin Chipper wrote:Exactly - it doesn't specify so it's open to arbitrary interpretation.

Yes, which is undesirable. I'm not in favour of it, which is what your earlier post seemed to me to be suggesting.

My point was that those that were arguing that the word should be disallowed (which may include you) inevitably put themselves in a position where things are open to arbitrary interpretation.

Just to clarify, I meant people who are arguing the above now with the current dictionary as it is written. I'm quite happy for words like that to be disallowed if the dictionary is set up for it.

Gavin Chipper wrote:What about PISSEDER and PISSEDEST then?

I'm sure I remember reading that participial adjectives can only form comparatives and superlatives with the addition of more and most, even if they are of one syllable. I don't think there is the remotest chance that DC would ever allow COOKEDER, SPLAYEDER, or STRIPEDER; nor are they in Lexplorer. TIREDER/EST doesn't sound so bad though. On the face of it, the single syllable rule ought to allow these, so unless there is an additional condition stated somewhere in the ODE3 I suppose this must be a case of people from Countdown knowing better than the dictionary.

I'm sure clear rules are a good thing, but arguably it should be more important to Countdown that adjudications appear credible (as far as possible) to the viewing audience. Ironically, I doubt whether allowing FEINTER would have raised too many eyebrows.

Edit: I'm an idiot again aren't I? I guess I'll find the adjectives I listed aren't explicitly specified, whereas PISSED is? The onset of senility I suppose. CLOSED might have been a better choice.

Phil Reynolds wrote:

Charlie Reams wrote:IIRC the introduction to the dictionary says that single-syllable adjectives are assumed to have comparatives and superlatives formed in the usual way, and they are therefore not specified.

It actually says that adding -er and -est to make comparative and superlative forms of one-syllable adjectives is regarded as regular and so such forms aren't explicitly specified, which is very different from saying that such adjectives all have comparatives and superlatives.

I see what you mean, but since we're in the already-nonsense game of having to declare that a particular string of letters is or isn't "proper English" then we might as well take the rule to be hard and fast. This has always been the case in the past, anyway. I guess I am more comfortable having exceptions for whole classes of words (like participle adjectives) than individual ones (like FEINT). That said, if DC continue to disallow FEINTER then I'll remove it -- if they vacillate, like they did with OPALINES etc, then I'd rather just ignore them and be consistent.

Phil Reynolds wrote:

Given that a player was given a second appearance after they lost for having RIGHTEST disallowed, and RIGHTEST is a pretty odd word, I thought this issue was closed. Like any rigid rule applied to English, it occasionally creates some odd words.

Fair enough, you've explained your thinking on this, which is what I asked for. I can (just about) imagine using RIGHTER/RIGHTEST colloquially in a sentence though ("All right answers are right, but some are righter than others"), whereas I can't imagine any situation in which one would use FEINTEST.

I imagine if you accept humorous or poetic examples like that then just about any conceivable inflection is admissible. (Which is fine with me by the way. To the great surprise of all Countdown hosts and guests, the ODE is already full of words that very few people know or use.)

Thanks for the explanations, Charlie.

Is this the right thread to ask whether apterous should still be allowing OUTSETS?

Hi, haven't posted here before so I don't know if it's the right place to put it...

FLORIGENS was disallowed in a game i've recently been involved in...
http://apterous.org/viewgame.php?game=488523

Prettttty sure it's plant-related cos I've heard it before somewhere but dictionary.com is playing up and I can't get on it
Opinions?

kieranbray wrote:Hi, haven't posted here before so I don't know if it's the right place to put it...

FLORIGENS was disallowed in a game i've recently been involved in...
http://apterous.org/viewgame.php?game=488523

Prettttty sure it's plant-related cos I've heard it before somewhere but dictionary.com is playing up and I can't get on it
Opinions?

Not in ODE3.

From Chambers:
florigen n. a postulated flower-forming hormone

is utopia not allowed? it is capitalised, but next to it it says utopia without the capital

Matt Coates wrote:is utopia not allowed? it is capitalised, but next to it it says utopia without the capital

Not in ODE3, it doesn't...

CASAREEP is a permissible word on apterous, yet ODE3 lists only CASSAREEP. Any ideas?

Shouldn't RADDER and RADDEST be allowed as well?

ODE3 gives RAD as an adjective ("informal, chiefly N.Amer. excellent; impressive") and it's not implausible that something could be radder than something else, or the raddest of many things.

METACHROMASZß Know it as the onlz stem of THOMASCAREZ but it isnät in Josephäs ODE3.

Thomas Carey wrote:METACHROMASZß Know it as the onlz stem of THOMASCAREZ but it isnät in Josephäs ODE3.

Stupid German kezboard. Z and Y are the wrong waz round.

RECUSANCE isn't in ODE3, unless I'm not looking properly. RECUSE, RECUSAL, RECUSANT and RECUSANCY are, but I can't see RECUSANCE.

Thomas Carey wrote:

Thomas Carey wrote:METACHROMASZß Know it as the onlz stem of THOMASCAREZ but it isnät in Josephäs ODE3.

Stupid German kezboard. Z and Y are the wrong waz round.

What I was trying to say - METACHROMASY? Not in the ODE.

This thread has been superseded by the new ticket system. I'll migrate old dictionary errors to the ticket system in the next few days.