Politics in General

[Gavin Chipper]

Oh but I've just thought - what about genuine asylum seekers that can't find legal routes?

[Fiona T]

What's the difference between refugees from war-torn Ukraine, and refugees from war-torn Syria?

(sounds like a joke needing a punchline, but am genuinely confused why one set is welcomed and the other are shunned)

edit to add, I'm not genuinely confused - it's bleedin' obvious, but a terrible reflection on us.

[Mark James]

Now that womb transplants are a thing I can't wait until a trans woman has an abortion. Just to see the reaction from the right.

[Gavin Chipper]

I think this is a bit insane really.

What's insane is not understanding that the actual objective of the story is to make people read the headline and think the looney left, political correctness brigade have gone too far again when in reality it's one fucking student that could have been easily ignored. It's irresponsible "journalism" and sharing the story is just adding to the nonsense culture war bullshit discourse.

Where is the article about me wanting to ban chemistry being taught because I sucked at it?

I thought of this post when I saw this article about a shopkeeper restraining someone and the subsequent protests.

[Marc Meakin]

Quelle Surprise
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66857551

[Gavin Chipper]

Quelle Surprise
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66857551

He's confirmed he's kicking the petrol/diesel car ban down the road from 2030 to 2035. He's acting like the ban would be quite an extreme thing, but it's only for new cars, so petrol and diesel cars would still exist for several years after 2030 anyway, and could still be sold second hand. He's trying to get the car driver vote at the next general election, but not everyone who drives a car is like Jeremy Clarkson.

[Johnny Canuck]

Now that womb transplants are a thing I can't wait until a trans woman has an abortion. Just to see the reaction from the right.

It’ll cancel out and they’ll idolise her

[Gavin Chipper]

Quelle Surprise
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66857551

He's confirmed he's kicking the petrol/diesel car ban down the road from 2030 to 2035. He's acting like the ban would be quite an extreme thing, but it's only for new cars, so petrol and diesel cars would still exist for several years after 2030 anyway, and could still be sold second hand. He's trying to get the car driver vote at the next general election, but not everyone who drives a car is like Jeremy Clarkson.

Still after the Clarkson vote, going after 20 mph zones.

[Gavin Chipper]

I'm looking forward to the day when 80-year-olds get IDed for buying cigarettes.

[Marc Meakin]

I'm looking forward to the day when 80-year-olds get IDed for buying cigarettes.

They will have to , to by for their 50 year old kids

[Marc Meakin]

I think the optics for the just stop oil campaign is a little off, picking on Les Miserables
Mind you at least they came on during the protest song.
Watch out Royal Opera House

[Mark James]

https://metro.co.uk/2023/10/04/people-w ... -19600987/

Minister says people who see shoplifting should perform citizens arrests. Now, while this absolutely will not decrease shoplifting, it will increase people getting the shit kicked out of them, so swings and roundabouts really. Another Tory policy win.

[Gavin Chipper]

Speaking of citizen's arrests, if you believe that a policeman is falsely arresting you or otherwise acting illegally, presumably you could place them under citizen's arrest.

[Marc Meakin]

https://metro.co.uk/2023/10/04/people-w ... -19600987/

Minister says people who see shoplifting should perform citizens arrests. Now, while this absolutely will not decrease shoplifting, it will increase people getting the shit kicked out of them, so swings and roundabouts really. Another Tory policy win.

I work in retail and we have been told not to apprehend Shoplifters but send cctv to the police.
The big differences between USA and the UK.
The cops there say "stop or I'll shoot" in the UK it's " stop or I will say stop again"

[Marc Meakin]

Speaking of citizen's arrests, if you believe that a policeman is falsely arresting you or otherwise acting illegally, presumably you could place them under citizen's arrest.

I once got stopped by a plain clothes policeman but he was in uniform, It was his day off

[Mark James]

https://metro.co.uk/2023/10/04/people-w ... -19600987/

Minister says people who see shoplifting should perform citizens arrests. Now, while this absolutely will not decrease shoplifting, it will increase people getting the shit kicked out of them, so swings and roundabouts really. Another Tory policy win.

I work in retail and we have been told not to apprehend Shoplifters but send cctv to the police.
The big differences between USA and the UK.
The cops there say "stop or I'll shoot" in the UK it's " stop or I will say stop again"

Unless you are black. Then they just shoot.

[Gavin Chipper]

When you have two terrorist organisations going at each other full guns blazing, it's never going to end well.

[Gavin Chipper]

OK, you can forget that last facetious comment. Watch this Owen Jones video on the Israel/Palestine situation. I think it's very good.

[Marc Meakin]

When you have two terrorist organisations going at each other full guns blazing, it's never going to end well.

Hamas beheading babies.
Even ISIS had standards

[Mark James]

When you have two terrorist organisations going at each other full guns blazing, it's never going to end well.

Hamas beheading babies.
Even ISIS had standards

Isis have used 4 year olds to detonate explosives. Let's not pretend they have values

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9186359/

https://twitter.com/Beltrew/status/1712023042560291083

There's no evidence of the "40 babies beheaded" according to the journalist who first reported on decapitations.

When Israel bombs buildings with babies in it, what do you think happens to their heads?

Of course, it was mission accomplished from the irresponsible media, using the 40 babies headlines to generate the kind of response from idiots that Marc has displayed here. Cop on.

[Marc Meakin]

When you have two terrorist organisations going at each other full guns blazing, it's never going to end well.

Hamas beheading babies.
Even ISIS had standards

Isis have used 4 year olds to detonate explosives. Let's not pretend they have values

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9186359/

https://twitter.com/Beltrew/status/1712023042560291083

There's no evidence of the "40 babies beheaded" according to the journalist who first reported on decapitations.

When Israel bombs buildings with babies in it, what do you think happens to their heads?

Of course, it was mission accomplished from the irresponsible media, using the 40 babies headlines to generate the kind of response from idiots that Marc has displayed here. Cop on.

If we are talking about semantics 4 year olds are older than babies.
Im Jewish but I know that Israel have not always covered themselves in glory but the West created the state of Israel with no regard to the displaced Palestinians.

Btw the timing of Hamas attacks are coincidentally just before peace talks with the Saudis and Israel

https://www.ibanet.org/article/D2659617 ... 71485EC3D6

[Gavin Chipper]

Israel committing war crimes becomes far easier for them to do when they think they have the support of the "international community". So when the Tories and Keir Starmer endorse what they are doing, it's not just harmless words coming out of their mouths. It's a disgrace.

It's worth watching some of Owen Jones's videos on the subject.

[Marc Meakin]

Israel committing war crimes becomes far easier for them to do when they think they have the support of the "international community". So when the Tories and Keir Starmer endorse what they are doing, it's not just harmless words coming out of their mouths. It's a disgrace.

It's worth watching some of Owen Jones's videos on the subject.

Are you Owen Jones publicist?

This I worth a read though

https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/10/1 ... -to-a-jew/

[Gavin Chipper]

Are you Owen Jones publicist?

No, but I think he's said some sensible stuff on the matter. But the leader of the SNP, Humza Yousaf, has condemned Israel is this too, and Novara media have made some videos on it.

This I worth a read though

https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/10/1 ... -to-a-jew/

It isn't worth a read. It doesn't convey what happened in the discussion at all, and it's just gutter journalism.

[Marc Meakin]

I've seen some propaganda media adverts on Youtube alongside ads for insurance and Sainsburys advocating killing what is the world coming to.
Note I've avoided saying who

[Marc Meakin]

Are you Owen Jones publicist?

No, but I think he's said some sensible stuff on the matter. But the leader of the SNP, Humza Yousaf, has condemned Israel is this too, and Novara media have made some videos on it.
Im not surprised Hamza Yousaf has come out in support.
Maybe Corbin too

This I worth a read though

https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/10/1 ... -to-a-jew/

It isn't worth a read. It doesn't convey what happened in the discussion at all, and it's just gutter journalism.

I'm sure Rachel Riley has had plenty to say but I don't do twatter

[Mark James]

I've seen some propaganda media adverts on Youtube alongside ads for insurance and Sainsburys advocating killing what is the world coming to.
Note I've avoided saying who

It was Israel wasn't it.

[Marc Meakin]

This is disappointing
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-67110193

[Marc Meakin]

I've seen some propaganda media adverts on Youtube alongside ads for insurance and Sainsburys advocating killing what is the world coming to.
Note I've avoided saying who

It was Israel wasn't it.

Ironically it was a Rachel Riley video I was watching when it came up

[Gavin Chipper]

Marc (and anyone else), I just want to make it clear why I have posted what I have posted on this subject. The point is that Hamas's attack on Israel has been pretty much universally condemned as an appalling terrorist attack (except by a few fringe lunatics), so merely repeating this is not what I would consider an interesting topic that I would use this thread for. Israel's attacks are more controversial, with some people seemingly turning a blind eye to, or even endorsing, war crimes. What happens next is important, and what happens next is most likely to come from Israel and the Netanyahu regime. This is why it becomes a discussion topic.

[Marc Meakin]

If we are talking about political intrigue on the timing of the Hamas Terrorism (note I haven't used the BBCs "America considers a terrorist organisation" stance) it was suggested that Saudi Arabia and Israel were having "secret" talks.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/09/1141302

Israel has a right to defend it's territory and should retaliate but of course innocents will suffer.
You can't wage a war with Terrorists as Britain only knows too well.
Hamas wants a global conflict and I can see this escalating into Armageddon in a few years

As for the reprehensible Owen Jones words fail me.

[Gavin Chipper]

What in particular about Owen Jones?

[Marc Meakin]

What in particular about Owen Jones?

I dont like the cut of his jib.
Like Piers Morgan whose politics are probably diametrically opposite of his, he strikes me as an arrogant, self serving, prick.
About the only thing I agree with him on is that Kier Stamer will win the next election.

The biggest surprise is that a member of the gay community is defending Hamas who are not exactly sympathetic to homosexuality

[Gavin Chipper]

He's not defending Hamas.

[Elliott Mellor]

What in particular about Owen Jones?

I dont like the cut of his jib.
Like Piers Morgan whose politics are probably diametrically opposite of his, he strikes me as an arrogant, self serving, prick.
About the only thing I agree with him on is that Kier Stamer will win the next election.

The biggest surprise is that a member of the gay community is defending Hamas who are not exactly sympathetic to homosexuality

He's not defending Hamas in any way at all, as far as I can see. He's trying to make the point that collective punishment of innocent civilians is against international law, and it's sickening how both Israelis and Palestinians are being murdered en masse. It shouldn't be controversial to be opposed to innocent civilian massacre.

The ongoing conflict is likely to generate an awful lot of hate and negativity directed at mainly innocent people. This is only made worse by gutter press articles like the one you linked above.

To say things like "even ISIS had standards" is not just completely wrong, it's hugely disrespectful to all those who suffered at their hands.

[Marc Meakin]

I was only responding to accusations of Israel being considered as terrorists.
Hamas are extreme anti zionists do you can't negotiate with them as they are not asking for a peaceful settlement they are not representing Palestinians.
The innocent children killed yesterday could easily have been killed by Hamas rockets.
The BBC fact checked the validity of the attack being real but could not ascertain where the missiles came from..
Of course I don't want any innocent casualties
My Beef with Owen Jones is he was having a discussion with an MP who was visibly upset as she had only recently visit the Kibbutz that was ritually slaughtered with unspeakable terror.
Jones was giving counter opinions far too soon after the event.
It was too soon and not really the platform to have this discussion at that time.

Also Jones is a mate of Jeremy Corbin and is a left wing supporter and left wing labour remains unelectable

[Mark James]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years ... our-faces/

The current state of Israel is a terrorist organisation as much as Hamas is.

They are committing war crimes. It is not antisemitic to point this out.

Left wing labour would have been elected if it had not been sabotaged by further right elements in its own party.

[Marc Meakin]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years ... our-faces/

The current state of Israel is a terrorist organisation as much as Hamas is.

They are committing war crimes. It is not antisemitic to point this out.

Left wing labour would have been elected if it had not been sabotaged by further right elements in its own party.

Committing War crimes and being terrorists is not the same thing
After the blitz great Britain flattened several cities in retaliation, that wasn't terrorism that was retaliation.
Luckily Great Britain has been much more tolerant in recent years after all they didn't flatten Dublin after the Terrorism committed by the IRA on British soil..

I do feel sorry for Palestinians they were displaced because the State of Israel was created by the Western governments not only after the Holocaust but because having a western sympathetic nation in the middle East was favourable politically.

[Fiona T]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years ... our-faces/

The current state of Israel is a terrorist organisation as much as Hamas is.

They are committing war crimes. It is not antisemitic to point this out.

Left wing labour would have been elected if it had not been sabotaged by further right elements in its own party.

Committing War crimes and being terrorists is not the same thing
After the blitz great Britain flattened several cities in retaliation, that wasn't terrorism that was retaliation.
Luckily Great Britain has been much more tolerant in recent years after all they didn't flatten Dublin after the Terrorism committed by the IRA on British soil..

I do feel sorry for Palestinians they were displaced because the State of Israel was created by the Western governments not only after the Holocaust but because having a western sympathetic nation in the middle East was favourable politically.

The whole situation is horrific. The Hamas attacks were brutally violent and truly horrific and completely unjustifiable, but the after effect on the people of Gaza is likely to be far wider reaching. Hamas don't care about them and are happy to use them in whatever way they can to further their aims. There was a young woman on the news https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-mid ... t-67101434 - her story is harrowing, but the contrast between the care she has in a well-equipped hospital, and the position that injured Gazaens are in is stark. Blockading Gaza to deprive the population of the basic essentials for life is inhumane - these are human lives who largely have no say or control over where they live. I'm pretty ignorant about the history of it all, but it does seem like there has been a massive imbalance of power for a long time - those are exactly the conditions that foster an explosion in extremist ideologies.

[Gavin Chipper]

My Beef with Owen Jones is he was having a discussion with an MP who was visibly upset as she had only recently visit the Kibbutz that was ritually slaughtered with unspeakable terror.
Jones was giving counter opinions far too soon after the event.
It was too soon and not really the platform to have this discussion at that time.

I think you're missing the point here. It's not just that historically more Palestinians have died than Israelis. It's that right now, Israel's actions matter and it is a very pressing concern that should be discussed by politicians and on political programmes.

[Marc Meakin]

Yes it should be debated but neccessarily by someone with no skin in the game.
I think, for example news night with the foreign secretary, the shadow ( incumbant) foreign secretary
A prominant Jew (Miriam Margoles has attacked Israel before for atrocities) and a pro Palestinian, preferably a historian.

[Mark James]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years ... our-faces/

The current state of Israel is a terrorist organisation as much as Hamas is.

They are committing war crimes. It is not antisemitic to point this out.

Left wing labour would have been elected if it had not been sabotaged by further right elements in its own party.

Committing War crimes and being terrorists is not the same thing
After the blitz great Britain flattened several cities in retaliation, that wasn't terrorism that was retaliation.
Luckily Great Britain has been much more tolerant in recent years after all they didn't flatten Dublin after the Terrorism committed by the IRA on British soil..

What the British Empire did to Ireland and most of the world was terrorism. If that's the road you want to go down then the IRA were just retaliating against an invading force of colonialist scumbags.

[Marc Meakin]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years ... our-faces/

The current state of Israel is a terrorist organisation as much as Hamas is.

They are committing war crimes. It is not antisemitic to point this out.

Left wing labour would have been elected if it had not been sabotaged by further right elements in its own party.

Committing War crimes and being terrorists is not the same thing
After the blitz great Britain flattened several cities in retaliation, that wasn't terrorism that was retaliation.
Luckily Great Britain has been much more tolerant in recent years after all they didn't flatten Dublin after the Terrorism committed by the IRA on British soil..

What the British Empire did to Ireland and most of the world was terrorism. If that's the road you want to go down then the IRA were just retaliating against an invading force of colonialist scumbags.

Yeah targeting innocent women children and horses.
The one occasion they went for legitimate target (Thatcher) they fucked that up.
I would prefer you said the British Empire raped and pillaged the nations they 'conquered' much like the Vikings did in England and The Americans did to the Indigenous people.
Have never been a fan of empires generally.
Its all about bullying smaller nations into submission.
Its not the common man that benefits from it neither.
The Middle East conflict is not about empires it's a complicated situation at best.
I read the Looming Tower recently which gives a good basis of the duplicity of the Americans and Saudi Arabia and it's relationship with Israel but Hamas and Hizballah are not going to sit around any negotiating table like the political arm of Terrorist groups in Northern Ireland could.
I mean Hamas have all these hostages and don't seem interested in using these hostages as a means to help the Palestinians they supposedly represent.

[Marc Meakin]

What in particular about Owen Jones?

I dont like the cut of his jib.
Like Piers Morgan whose politics are probably diametrically opposite of his, he strikes me as an arrogant, self serving, prick.
About the only thing I agree with him on is that Kier Stamer will win the next election.

The biggest surprise is that a member of the gay community is defending Hamas who are not exactly sympathetic to homosexuality

I see Owen Jones has addressed the dichotomy of defending a nation that has banned homosexuality

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... ore-target

[Gavin Chipper]

Rishi Sunak has visited Israel and is cosying up to the war criminal.

[Marc Meakin]

Rishi Sunak has visited Israel and is cosying up to the war criminal.

I didnt know Tony Blair was there

[Marc Meakin]

If you want a largely unbiased insight into the middle East crisis from an historical position then this is worth watching
https://youtu.be/xAs5EOBUDcs?si=iIgNrPdmAkf-mAG4

[Gavin Chipper]

Yeah so basically Israel have taken this terrorist attack as a green light to indiscriminately bomb Palestinian civilians, and the Tories, Starmer etc. are just saying "Israel has an absolute right to defend itself". What they are doing has nothing to do with defence. It's outrageous.

Plus if the Netanyahu regime can use the excuse of everything Hamas has done to justify killing civilians, Hamas could justify their terrorist attack on the basis of the Netanyahu regime and everything it has done. But, to be clear, neither are justified.

[Marc Meakin]

Yeah so basically Israel have taken this terrorist attack as a green light to indiscriminately bomb Palestinian civilians, and the Tories, Starmer etc. are just saying "Israel has an absolute right to defend itself". What they are doing has nothing to do with defence. It's outrageous.

Plus if the Netanyahu regime can use the excuse of everything Hamas has done to justify killing civilians, Hamas could justify their terrorist attack on the basis of the Netanyahu regime and everything it has done. But, to be clear, neither are justified.

Israel have always used defending it's borders as justification for there actions.
In 1967 when Egypt attacked Israel it retaliated and took Gaza and The Golan Heights in order to protect the state of Israel.
The Palestinians were the pawns in this and have remained so, but Hamas are not working for Palestine but against Israel.
I actually watched Question Time yesterday (recorded) and the chap from Bradford in the audience made the most sense about Iran funding Hamas to destabilise the middle East.
Iran are not even Arabs and they have been instrumental in conflicts in Syria, The Lebanon and other Middle East conflicts.
He also mentioned the timing, 50 years after the Yom Kippur War. There was going to be a historic peace accord with Saudi Arabia and I think Iran and Hamas didn't want that.

[Gavin Chipper]

With James Cleverly replacing Suella Braverman as home secretary, it's more evidence that the Tories avoid white home secretaries to avoid accusations of racism when they spout the bile that they spout.

[Marc Meakin]

With James Cleverly replacing Suella Braverman as home secretary, it's more evidence that the Tories avoid white home secretaries to avoid accusations of racism when they spout the bile that they spout.

No mention of the slimeball David Cameron returning to front line politics.
Mind you being the 4th worst Tory Prime minister of the last 10 years is some accolade

[Gavin Chipper]

With James Cleverly replacing Suella Braverman as home secretary, it's more evidence that the Tories avoid white home secretaries to avoid accusations of racism when they spout the bile that they spout.

No mention of the slimeball David Cameron returning to front line politics.
Mind you being the 4th worst Tory Prime minister of the last 10 years is some accolade

I was kind of speechless on the David Cameron thing. But I hear they've ordered in a supply of dead pigs.

[Gavin Chipper]

OK, so back to David Cameron. Rishi Sunak has literally just taken some guy off the street to be his foreign secretary. He is not an MP and was not in the House of Lords. It could have been you. It could have been me. It could have been Brian Cox (either of them). But it just happened to be David Cameron who won the tie-break of most dead pigs he's put his penis in.

[Fiona T]

OK, so back to David Cameron. Rishi Sunak has literally just taken some guy off the street to be his foreign secretary. He is not an MP and was not in the House of Lords. It could have been you. It could have been me. It could have been Brian Cox (either of them). But it just happened to be David Cameron who won the tie-break of most dead pigs he's put his penis in.

I mean I'm no fan of the guy but compared to some of the alternatives he seems relatively sane. And let's face it, who here can honestly say they haven't stuck their dick somewhere they shouldn't have?

[Elliott Mellor]

OK, so back to David Cameron. Rishi Sunak has literally just taken some guy off the street to be his foreign secretary. He is not an MP and was not in the House of Lords. It could have been you. It could have been me. It could have been Brian Cox (either of them). But it just happened to be David Cameron who won the tie-break of most dead pigs he's put his penis in.

I mean I'm no fan of the guy but compared to some of the alternatives he seems relatively sane. And let's face it, who here can honestly say they haven't stuck their dick somewhere they shouldn't have?

I think the difference is, even the Countdowners who are most starved of action generally don't turn to different species.

[Marc Meakin]

OK, so back to David Cameron. Rishi Sunak has literally just taken some guy off the street to be his foreign secretary. He is not an MP and was not in the House of Lords. It could have been you. It could have been me. It could have been Brian Cox (either of them). But it just happened to be David Cameron who won the tie-break of most dead pigs he's put his penis in.

I mean I'm no fan of the guy but compared to some of the alternatives he seems relatively sane. And let's face it, who here can honestly say they haven't stuck their dick somewhere they shouldn't have?

The pig I can forgive but getting into bed with with the fib dems no.

[Gavin Chipper]

I think it's more the Lib Dems getting into bed with the Tories isn't it? I don't blame the Tories for that.

[Marc Meakin]

True, Clegg really sold his soul and his principles.
He should have picked Gordon Brown

[Ian Volante]

True, Clegg really sold his soul and his principles.
He should have picked Gordon Brown

As far as I'm aware, Brown hadn't even considered the possibility of a coalition, and effectively dismissed the possibility without consideration. Utterly stupid. The Lib Dems I think got blinded by the lure of power, and paid dearly for it, as did we all.

[Gavin Chipper]

This is a good speech about the Palestine/Israel situation.