I'm guessing I touched a nerveGavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:44 pm If she'd stolen a bicycle while she was out there I'd probably say leave her to rot out there.
Politics in General
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Re: Politics in General
Not at all.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:16 pmI'm guessing I touched a nerveGavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:44 pm If she'd stolen a bicycle while she was out there I'd probably say leave her to rot out there.
But to get back to the point, I'm not sure she would need a bodyguard for life. If it came to it she could be given a new identity.
I also think the Liam Neeson thing was a massive overreaction. He was admitting to something he did 40 years ago, not giving his current views. It was probably unwise to admit it given what people can be like though.
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I thought it was illegal in international law to leave someone stateless; if so, that should be the end of it regardless of the court of public opinion. Sure today it's an ISIS bride, but who will it be next? Given how recent something like Windrush is, I absolutely dread to think what this government (and indeed future ones) might do with the power to make its citizens stateless. Ignoring that elephant in the room, I have pretty mixed feelings.
On the 'bring her home and make her stand trial' front:
- It's unbelievably arrogant to assume that we're too good for our own radicalised citizen to return, but the Netherlands can have her. Why would they want her!? Why should we leave our radicals in refugee camps to put other refugees at risk, and leave them to cause further destruction to a region? (I guess we can just bomb the shit out of those countries when something like this kicks off again!!) She should be a British responsibility.
- She was groomed online at 15. By legal definition, that's a child. If not for the ISIS angle we'd all accept that being groomed at that age makes her a victim and at least complicates her level of agency in the situation. Were there issues going on in her life that pushed her towards this ideology and caused her to make her extreme decision? Understanding the thinking behind this kind of behaviour should inform genuine evidence-based deradicalisation initiatives rather than reactionary/kneejerk ones (Prevent), or funding groups in this area who talk a good game but are largely frauds (Quilliam).
- If she shows no remorse: she's in a refugee camp when ISIS have largely been defeated; who else is in that camp with her and what might they do to her if she's on international news stations slagging off ISIS? More importantly: if she were remorseful, would people believe her or be more likely to forgive her? I don't think so. It's a bit of a non-factor.
On the other hand:
- Her coming back to the UK would be a huge threat to Muslims in the UK (not to mention people mistaken for Muslims). Like, there's been a few discussions in a Facebook group I'm in about this topic and the Muslim women in it (or those who have Muslim families) are terrified about a violent backlash to their community if she returns. This story has been absolutely massive and emotive in a way that few news stories are... it's fertile ground for radicalising people to the far right.
- If she's still privately committed to the ideology, would she begin to radicalise those around her in prison, via the internet, etc? Will she use a court case as a platform for spreading hate?
I don't know which side would be responsible for more violence, but I fully believe people in the UK will die for one reason or another as a consequence of this. I would be amazed if she wasn't assassinated, to be honest.
The truly tragic thing is that her baby (not to mention her 2 dead children) are innocent. They were born into a horrifying situation because of a 15 year old's dreadful choice. I would hope that even people who are vociferously against the mother would have an inkling of compassion for the child
On the 'bring her home and make her stand trial' front:
- It's unbelievably arrogant to assume that we're too good for our own radicalised citizen to return, but the Netherlands can have her. Why would they want her!? Why should we leave our radicals in refugee camps to put other refugees at risk, and leave them to cause further destruction to a region? (I guess we can just bomb the shit out of those countries when something like this kicks off again!!) She should be a British responsibility.
- She was groomed online at 15. By legal definition, that's a child. If not for the ISIS angle we'd all accept that being groomed at that age makes her a victim and at least complicates her level of agency in the situation. Were there issues going on in her life that pushed her towards this ideology and caused her to make her extreme decision? Understanding the thinking behind this kind of behaviour should inform genuine evidence-based deradicalisation initiatives rather than reactionary/kneejerk ones (Prevent), or funding groups in this area who talk a good game but are largely frauds (Quilliam).
- If she shows no remorse: she's in a refugee camp when ISIS have largely been defeated; who else is in that camp with her and what might they do to her if she's on international news stations slagging off ISIS? More importantly: if she were remorseful, would people believe her or be more likely to forgive her? I don't think so. It's a bit of a non-factor.
On the other hand:
- Her coming back to the UK would be a huge threat to Muslims in the UK (not to mention people mistaken for Muslims). Like, there's been a few discussions in a Facebook group I'm in about this topic and the Muslim women in it (or those who have Muslim families) are terrified about a violent backlash to their community if she returns. This story has been absolutely massive and emotive in a way that few news stories are... it's fertile ground for radicalising people to the far right.
- If she's still privately committed to the ideology, would she begin to radicalise those around her in prison, via the internet, etc? Will she use a court case as a platform for spreading hate?
I don't know which side would be responsible for more violence, but I fully believe people in the UK will die for one reason or another as a consequence of this. I would be amazed if she wasn't assassinated, to be honest.
The truly tragic thing is that her baby (not to mention her 2 dead children) are innocent. They were born into a horrifying situation because of a 15 year old's dreadful choice. I would hope that even people who are vociferously against the mother would have an inkling of compassion for the child
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Re: Politics in General
The thing that I can't get my head round is, 15 year olds are naturally rebellious but leaving her family to join the ISIS cause is a bit of a step up from a piercing or smoking weed.
And more importantly, her parents must have been complicit and paid for her flights along with the other girls parents that went with her.
I would suggest her radicalisation was a bit nearer to home.
Your choice of words , 'grooming' is a bit inflammatory considering the reason the far right and parents of children in vulnerable areas are distrustful of Muslims are the sex grooming gangs .
And more importantly, her parents must have been complicit and paid for her flights along with the other girls parents that went with her.
I would suggest her radicalisation was a bit nearer to home.
Your choice of words , 'grooming' is a bit inflammatory considering the reason the far right and parents of children in vulnerable areas are distrustful of Muslims are the sex grooming gangs .
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She's as likely to be assassinated here as in Syria.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:09 pm The thing that I can't get my head round is, 15 year olds are naturally rebellious but leaving her family to join the ISIS cause is a bit of a step up from a piercing or smoking weed.
And more importantly, her parents must have been complicit and paid for her flights along with the other girls parents that went with her.
I would suggest her radicalisation was a bit nearer to home.
Your choice of words , 'grooming' is a bit inflammatory considering the reason the far right and parents of children in vulnerable areas are distrustful of Muslims are the sex grooming gangs .
I still think as the child is half Dutch then that's where she should go .
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I completely agree with the first bit, and it is impossible to sympathise (let alone empathise) with that decision because it's so far removed from the life experience of virtually all of us. Like you, I'd be very keen to know about the parenting and environment in which the girls were brought up in, as I think that's a really important piece of the jigsaw - whether it was a direct or indirect factor. But again, it would be useful to know this so that it can inform preventative approaches to this kind of thing in future.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:09 pm The thing that I can't get my head round is, 15 year olds are naturally rebellious but leaving her family to join the ISIS cause is a bit of a step up from a piercing or smoking weed.
And more importantly, her parents must have been complicit and paid for her flights along with the other girls parents that went with her.
I would suggest her radicalisation was a bit nearer to home.
Your choice of words , 'grooming' is a bit inflammatory considering the reason the far right and parents of children in vulnerable areas are distrustful of Muslims are the sex grooming gangs .
What phrase do you think is more appropriate for what I've described as grooming? Genuine question - I can't think of an adequate alternative. Personally I feel like you've already distinguished between this kind and the grooming gangs kind by describing it as 'sex grooming'.
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Radicalised would be more succinct.
I think she genuinely thought she was doing good by going there .
I am curious if the government had stopped her from leaving , in the first place, would the public be up in arms as her liberty would have been infringed.
You could argue that she may not feel free to denounce what she had done, but that's what happens when you leave a country that champions freedom of speech.
I think she genuinely thought she was doing good by going there .
I am curious if the government had stopped her from leaving , in the first place, would the public be up in arms as her liberty would have been infringed.
You could argue that she may not feel free to denounce what she had done, but that's what happens when you leave a country that champions freedom of speech.
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I don't have strong opinions.JimBentley wrote: ↑Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:08 pmI don't know why you don't comment more, you obviously have strong opinions and you're often quite pithy.
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These things can get out of hand.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:44 pm If she'd stolen a bicycle while she was out there I'd probably say leave her to rot out there.
Re: Politics in General
Given that hundreds of male IS fighters - actively and personally involved in killing - have already returned to the UK without losing their citizenship, it seems a tad misogynistic to make a public example of a young woman (girl) with a newborn baby. She does of course need to be dealt with and be accountable for whatever she has done and that may mean a long jail sentence, but she is our problem, not someone else's. Understanding how she became radicalised might help prevent the same happening to other children. The press involvement and publicity is the real problem here - but that doesn't seem to be something she instigated - more that they found her. She clearly is a danger, but one that needs to be managed, not cut loose.
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I think a citation is needed for these make ISIS fighters that have come back to the UK.Judy W wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:34 pm Given that hundreds of male IS fighters - actively and personally involved in killing - have already returned to the UK without losing their citizenship, it seems a tad misogynistic to make a public example of a young woman (girl) with a newborn baby. She does of course need to be dealt with and be accountable for whatever she has done and that may mean a long jail sentence, but she is our problem, not someone else's. Understanding how she became radicalised might help prevent the same happening to other children. The press involvement and publicity is the real problem here - but that doesn't seem to be something she instigated - more that they found her. She clearly is a danger, but one that needs to be managed, not cut loose.
I think her parents should be questioned about how she was able to travel to Syria at 15 without their blessing
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Re: Politics in General
It may be illegal to leave someone stateless, but it didn't stop Theresa May trying to do that anyway as Home Secretary in 2013.Jennifer Steadman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:58 pm I thought it was illegal in international law to leave someone stateless; if so, that should be the end of it regardless of the court of public opinion. Sure today it's an ISIS bride, but who will it be next? Given how recent something like Windrush is, I absolutely dread to think what this government (and indeed future ones) might do with the power to make its citizens stateless. Ignoring that elephant in the room, I have pretty mixed feelings.
Currently the Home Office's policy on this is to take away her British citizenship and argue that she can go to Bangladesh, even though she grew up in the UK and has never even been to Bangladesh. It's just as absurd as looking in the eye a Windrush migrant who's been living here for 40 years and telling them that their home is in Jamaica.
Yes, this. I've seen comments elsewhere of the "she should go back to where she came from" variety. She's British and was born and raised here, so she's the British justice system's responsibility like any other British criminal. Suppose a Bangladeshi national who had never been to the UK left to join IS, committed terrorist acts, and tried to return to Bangladesh, only for Bangladesh to deny them re-entry and send them to the UK because it was believed they could claim British citizenship through a parent. I expect the Home Secretary would take rather a different view if it were that way round.Jennifer Steadman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:58 pm On the 'bring her home and make her stand trial' front:
- It's unbelievably arrogant to assume that we're too good for our own radicalised citizen to return, but the Netherlands can have her. Why would they want her!? Why should we leave our radicals in refugee camps to put other refugees at risk, and leave them to cause further destruction to a region? (I guess we can just bomb the shit out of those countries when something like this kicks off again!!) She should be a British responsibility.
Re: Politics in General
Here you go - from well before Begum made the newsMarc Meakin wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:38 pmI think a citation is needed for these make ISIS fighters that have come back to the UK.Judy W wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:34 pm Given that hundreds of male IS fighters - actively and personally involved in killing - have already returned to the UK without losing their citizenship, it seems a tad misogynistic to make a public example of a young woman (girl) with a newborn baby. She does of course need to be dealt with and be accountable for whatever she has done and that may mean a long jail sentence, but she is our problem, not someone else's. Understanding how she became radicalised might help prevent the same happening to other children. The press involvement and publicity is the real problem here - but that doesn't seem to be something she instigated - more that they found her. She clearly is a danger, but one that needs to be managed, not cut loose.
I think her parents should be questioned about how she was able to travel to Syria at 15 without their blessing
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/figh ... lice-chief
"At least 900 British nationals of "national security concern" are estimated to have travelled to Syria to join the Islamic State (IS) group as fighters or in other roles.
About 20 percent of those have been killed while 40 percent have returned to the UK, according to the UK's latest counter-terrorism strategy."
I would be very surprised if her family haven't been under close scrutiny.
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Re: Politics in General
This sums it up quite well I think.Graeme Cole wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:43 pm Suppose a Bangladeshi national who had never been to the UK left to join IS, committed terrorist acts, and tried to return to Bangladesh, only for Bangladesh to deny them re-entry and send them to the UK because it was believed they could claim British citizenship through a parent. I expect the Home Secretary would take rather a different view if it were that way round.
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On this, the entire situation is likely to have inflamed certain anti-Muslim/anti-brown people, and I wonder how much difference her coming back would actually make, because the hornet's nest has already been stirred. But also, I don't think we should be setting policy based on the potential reaction of lynch mobs. You might argue that not doing so would result in more violence and potential deaths, but over the long term, having this as a general policy is likely to be very detrimental to our laws.Jennifer Steadman wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:58 pm On the other hand:
- Her coming back to the UK would be a huge threat to Muslims in the UK (not to mention people mistaken for Muslims). Like, there's been a few discussions in a Facebook group I'm in about this topic and the Muslim women in it (or those who have Muslim families) are terrified about a violent backlash to their community if she returns. This story has been absolutely massive and emotive in a way that few news stories are... it's fertile ground for radicalising people to the far right.
- If she's still privately committed to the ideology, would she begin to radicalise those around her in prison, via the internet, etc? Will she use a court case as a platform for spreading hate?
I don't know which side would be responsible for more violence, but I fully believe people in the UK will die for one reason or another as a consequence of this. I would be amazed if she wasn't assassinated, to be honest.
If she goes to prison, presumably they wouldn't put her near other people who would be deemed at risk of becoming radical Islamists (or whatever the term is), so I'm not sure that's a primary concern. Also from what I've seen of her (admittedly not that much), she seems a bit thick and not very charismatic, and is unlikely to be the sort of person that can go round casually radicalising others.
If you would be amazed by her not being assassinated, presumably you think there's at least a 90% chance of it happening, and given that it's more likely to happen sooner rather than later (when people have forgotten about it), we'll say 90% within two years. So we can have a bet, and I'll give you generous odds. If she comes back to the UK, then if she is assassinated within two years of that, I'll give you £10, but if not, you give me £80. Deal?
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Re: Politics in General
Fuck off mate, we haven't all got shares in Bitcoin.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:28 pmSo we can have a bet, and I'll give you generous odds. If she comes back to the UK, then if she is assassinated within two years of that, I'll give you £10, but if not, you give me £80. Deal?
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I see her parents are challenging the decision to deny Miss Begum UK citizenship.
Will they be entitled to legal aid ?
Will they be entitled to legal aid ?
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By the way, I think it's probably inevitable that she will end up back here. Javid doesn't care either - he just wants it out there that he tried to block it. It's just a political move.
Also, not that I think stripping someone of British citizenship should generally be a thing, but in any case it shouldn't be decided by a politician, who is more likely to be acting for their own reasons, rather than in the national interest or in the interests of justice. It should be decided by a judge or judges acting impartially.
Like I was amazed it was a thing that politicians were able to set the minimum sentence for the Bulger killers. Politicians are there to set general legislation, not deal with individual cases. There should be a separation of duties and it's amazing that in the 21st century that this is even a conversation.
Also, not that I think stripping someone of British citizenship should generally be a thing, but in any case it shouldn't be decided by a politician, who is more likely to be acting for their own reasons, rather than in the national interest or in the interests of justice. It should be decided by a judge or judges acting impartially.
Like I was amazed it was a thing that politicians were able to set the minimum sentence for the Bulger killers. Politicians are there to set general legislation, not deal with individual cases. There should be a separation of duties and it's amazing that in the 21st century that this is even a conversation.
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When she comes back she will probably get a trial and go to prison where she will be put with women of her own community and she can radicalise lots of vulnerable Muslim women
Btw apropos etc.
If you are a prisoner and convert to Islam you get better food, privileges etc.
Btw apropos etc.
If you are a prisoner and convert to Islam you get better food, privileges etc.
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Re: Politics in General
I've no idea. If you want to give me details of their earnings and the rules surrounding legal aid provision, I can help you find an answer.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:43 am I see her parents are challenging the decision to deny Miss Begum UK citizenship.
Will they be entitled to legal aid ?
meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles
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Re: Politics in General
Is that what you were advised?Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:09 am If you are a prisoner and convert to Islam you get better food, privileges etc.
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I'm guessing you consider yourself a wit, well you are halfway there at least.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:02 pmIs that what you were advised?Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:09 am If you are a prisoner and convert to Islam you get better food, privileges etc.
For the record, I have never been to prison or convicted of any crime
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But anyway, how do you know that you get better food, privileges etc. if you convert to Islam?Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:09 pmI'm guessing you consider yourself a wit, well you are halfway there at least.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:02 pmIs that what you were advised?Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:09 am If you are a prisoner and convert to Islam you get better food, privileges etc.
For the record, I have never been to prison or convicted of any crime
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Here
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews ... perks.html
And more recently
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.inde ... html%3famp
I have watched a few prison dramas too
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews ... perks.html
And more recently
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.inde ... html%3famp
I have watched a few prison dramas too
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Thanks. It doesn't exactly sound clear cut though.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:21 pm Here
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews ... perks.html
And more recently
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.inde ... html%3famp
I have watched a few prison dramas too
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No but it wasn't without some foundation
It could also be argued that converting to Judaism would be equally beneficial but doesn't fit the narrative.
It could also be argued that converting to Judaism would be equally beneficial but doesn't fit the narrative.
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Re: Politics in General
Do you think we should have another referendum on Brexit ?
What basis would you justify it
Maybe the hidden agenda is that a lot of leavers are dead or too I'll to vote plus a lot more remainers are now elegible to vote.
My take on it would be to have a referendum on having another referendum on the basis that the first referendum was a binary choice on an obvious multiple choice scenario
What basis would you justify it
Maybe the hidden agenda is that a lot of leavers are dead or too I'll to vote plus a lot more remainers are now elegible to vote.
My take on it would be to have a referendum on having another referendum on the basis that the first referendum was a binary choice on an obvious multiple choice scenario
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Here is a link to what I posted quote recently on the subject of a second referendum. And my it's still my position. I wasn't particularly calling for a second referendum early on, but the longer this has gone on and the more of a mess its become, the more I see it as a reasonable course of action. I'm not sure how likely it is to happen - I'm wondering what course of events could lead it to actually happen - but I think with Labour endorsing the idea, it's at least more likely than it was before.Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:22 am Do you think we should have another referendum on Brexit ?
What basis would you justify it
Maybe the hidden agenda is that a lot of leavers are dead or too I'll to vote plus a lot more remainers are now elegible to vote.
My take on it would be to have a referendum on having another referendum on the basis that the first referendum was a binary choice on an obvious multiple choice scenario
Edit - Looking at the Betfair odds (take with as many pinches of salt as you want), it seems there's around a 25% - 26% chance of a second referendum before 2020.
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Re: Politics in General
A political move that might just have backfired.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:21 am By the way, I think it's probably inevitable that she will end up back here. Javid doesn't care either - he just wants it out there that he tried to block it. It's just a political move.
By the way, what do we think of Amber Rudd talking about coloured people? Personally, I think it's amazing that someone at that level of politics isn't completely aware of such no-go words. But I don't think it shows any racism really (as much as it is nice to stick the boot into a Tory) - it's just a language game really. It's about knowing which words you are allowed to say and which you aren't rather than about your actual outlook and attitudes. You can say "person of colour" but not "coloured". Like knowing you can say "latrine" but not "entrail" on Countdown. (Maybe not exactly the same, but I'm leaving it there. Fight me.)
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Re: Politics in General
It is odd , coloured people unacceptable, but people of colour is
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Re: Politics in General
I hate to defend Amber Rudd but I kind of agree, the leaps to accusations of racism are a bit hyperbolic. At the very worst she revealed that she has old-fashioned views and still uses old-fashioned language, and you could argue that that means that she's generally out of touch. And of course, as a senior politician she should know better than to do this. I'm sure she's a lot of bad things, but I don't think she's racist.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:08 pmBy the way, what do we think of Amber Rudd talking about coloured people? Personally, I think it's amazing that someone at that level of politics isn't completely aware of such no-go words. But I don't think it shows any racism really (as much as it is nice to stick the boot into a Tory) - it's just a language game really. It's about knowing which words you are allowed to say and which you aren't rather than about your actual outlook and attitudes. You can say "person of colour" but not "coloured". Like knowing you can say "latrine" but not "entrail" on Countdown. (Maybe not exactly the same, but I'm leaving it there. Fight me.)
Benedict Cumberbatch did exactly the same thing a couple of years ago, didn't he? He was trying to say how he thought there should be more opportunities for non-white actors in mainstream films but accidentally said "coloured actors" and got a lot of stick for it, something like that.
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Re: Politics in General
Alan Hansen did the same on MotD.
I think the key is that "coloured" was never meant to be a derogatory term. I seem to remember that back in the early 70s "coloured" was considered more polite than "black".
I think the key is that "coloured" was never meant to be a derogatory term. I seem to remember that back in the early 70s "coloured" was considered more polite than "black".
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Re: Politics in General
Well aye, but things move on. My impression of its usage is that it's a very middle class way of referring to something seen as potentially socially awkward, a euphemism I suppose. In that sense, it's clear to me why many people would be affronted if an important part of their persona was felt to need euphemised.Paul Worsley wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:22 pm Alan Hansen did the same on MotD.
I think the key is that "coloured" was never meant to be a derogatory term. I seem to remember that back in the early 70s "coloured" was considered more polite than "black".
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Re: Politics in General
Brexit.
Wtf is wrong with the people we elected.
All this time and the best they can come up with is please, sir, can we have some more ...... time
I do hope they say bollocks you've made your bed.
I can't believe I'm even saying this but, it would never have happened under Thatcher
Wtf is wrong with the people we elected.
All this time and the best they can come up with is please, sir, can we have some more ...... time
I do hope they say bollocks you've made your bed.
I can't believe I'm even saying this but, it would never have happened under Thatcher
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Re: Politics in General
I find it amazing the scrutiny that Jeremy Corbyn has been under with so many people saying he's not fit to be Prime Minister when now a much bigger liability in pretty much every possible way looks set to just walk into number 10.
I've heard it said that some Tories might just vote for Boris because he's got the best chance of beating Corbyn in a general election. Really? I'd say there's every chance he'll get found out as someone with no credentials whatsoever as any sort of serious human being and either he'll lose horribly or they'll need to change leader again before the next election.
Most non-Tories seem to prefer Rory Stewart. Maybe he's the one to go for if you want to get votes from people who aren't committed Tories and beat Corbyn.
I've heard it said that some Tories might just vote for Boris because he's got the best chance of beating Corbyn in a general election. Really? I'd say there's every chance he'll get found out as someone with no credentials whatsoever as any sort of serious human being and either he'll lose horribly or they'll need to change leader again before the next election.
Most non-Tories seem to prefer Rory Stewart. Maybe he's the one to go for if you want to get votes from people who aren't committed Tories and beat Corbyn.
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Re: Politics in General
Fed up of hearing about it, Trump is backing Boris, probably so there is an Idiot leading uk as well to make him look better, to be fair they are all plonkers.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:36 am I find it amazing the scrutiny that Jeremy Corbyn has been under with so many people saying he's not fit to be Prime Minister when now a much bigger liability in pretty much every possible way looks set to just walk into number 10.
I've heard it said that some Tories might just vote for Boris because he's got the best chance of beating Corbyn in a general election. Really? I'd say there's every chance he'll get found out as someone with no credentials whatsoever as any sort of serious human being and either he'll lose horribly or they'll need to change leader again before the next election.
Most non-Tories seem to prefer Rory Stewart. Maybe he's the one to go for if you want to get votes from people who aren't committed Tories and beat Corbyn.
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Re: Politics in General
Sick of hearing about antisemitismGavin Chipper wrote: ↑Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:48 amI think a lot of the conflation of "Israel" and "Jews"* comes from the people accusing others of anti-Semitism. And the definition some people use includes "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis". However much you might disagree with people making these comparisons and think it's repugnant, it's not anti-Semitic, and it's not racist. Find some other adjectives that do apply.Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:53 pm Sadly, yes.
The Labour antisemitism thing keeps rumbling on. At first, I thought the Lab leadership was being nice but dim and not understanding, but given some of the things Corbyn has said I'm not sure.
The problem is that a lot of people conflate "Israel" and "Jews" since Israel is the only Jewish nation state at the moment. The foundation of Israel was done on religious grounds, yes, but if you're going to argue for its abolition you also need to argue for the abolition of Pakistan as it was founded in virtually identical circumstances, and I haven't read a single opus saying that Pakistan should be abolished.
What's more, a lot of people are wilfully blind to some of the antisemitism that's happening from the Left at the moment, particularly by Corbynistas. It is not difficult to conduct even the lightest of Google searches for countless examples by Labour supporters in the last few years. It's now so bad that Nick Hewer has now left the Labour Party over this.
Either I'm mistaken or Nick Hewer was instrumental in supporting the failed Hoon/Hewitt coup of 2010, so he's not just your typical celebrity supporter.
*Also, people who are Jewish by descent v by religion.
My real name is Ashton Hancock.
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Re: Politics in General
Aye, it would be nice if people stopped being nasty to other people, and we could all just get on with our lives. One of these years...Jenny James wrote: ↑Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:03 pmSick of hearing about antisemitismGavin Chipper wrote: ↑Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:48 amI think a lot of the conflation of "Israel" and "Jews"* comes from the people accusing others of anti-Semitism. And the definition some people use includes "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis". However much you might disagree with people making these comparisons and think it's repugnant, it's not anti-Semitic, and it's not racist. Find some other adjectives that do apply.Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:53 pm Sadly, yes.
The Labour antisemitism thing keeps rumbling on. At first, I thought the Lab leadership was being nice but dim and not understanding, but given some of the things Corbyn has said I'm not sure.
The problem is that a lot of people conflate "Israel" and "Jews" since Israel is the only Jewish nation state at the moment. The foundation of Israel was done on religious grounds, yes, but if you're going to argue for its abolition you also need to argue for the abolition of Pakistan as it was founded in virtually identical circumstances, and I haven't read a single opus saying that Pakistan should be abolished.
What's more, a lot of people are wilfully blind to some of the antisemitism that's happening from the Left at the moment, particularly by Corbynistas. It is not difficult to conduct even the lightest of Google searches for countless examples by Labour supporters in the last few years. It's now so bad that Nick Hewer has now left the Labour Party over this.
Either I'm mistaken or Nick Hewer was instrumental in supporting the failed Hoon/Hewitt coup of 2010, so he's not just your typical celebrity supporter.
*Also, people who are Jewish by descent v by religion.
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Re: Politics in General
After about 100 attempts to remember my password after resetting my laptop....
I'm going to vote for Boris Johnson. He does have some nice policies that really appeal to me, such as the reduction of "sin" taxes. Jeremy Hunt represents continuity Theresa May, so I'm avoiding him like the plague.
I'm going to vote for Boris Johnson. He does have some nice policies that really appeal to me, such as the reduction of "sin" taxes. Jeremy Hunt represents continuity Theresa May, so I'm avoiding him like the plague.
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Re: Politics in General
Are you a member of the Conservative party then ?Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:33 am After about 100 attempts to remember my password after resetting my laptop....
I'm going to vote for Boris Johnson. He does have some nice policies that really appeal to me, such as the reduction of "sin" taxes. Jeremy Hunt represents continuity Theresa May, so I'm avoiding him like the plague.
Also the way Bojo waffles on maybe he can abolish syntax too
Last edited by Marc Meakin on Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics in General
Not bad. (Unlike Boris Johnson himself.)
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Re: Politics in General
Reduce sin tax on all sugary drinks? I don't know but milkshakes should be government subsidised.
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Re: Politics in General
The thing that I find quite funny (OK, not funny, more disturbing) is that both Johnson and Hunt now seem to be trying to outdo one another in who can espouse the more right-wing and reactionary policies. This will play well with the party membership but it's pretty toxic to the voting public, so whichever of them gets in will pretty much have to do a reverse on everything they've said. The whole Jeremy Cunt/fox-hunting thing is a prime example. I would guess that within the general public there's something like a 95%-5% split against it, but the Conservative Party membership are - bizarrely - in favour of it becoming legal again.Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:33 am After about 100 attempts to remember my password after resetting my laptop....
I'm going to vote for Boris Johnson. He does have some nice policies that really appeal to me, such as the reduction of "sin" taxes. Jeremy Hunt represents continuity Theresa May, so I'm avoiding him like the plague.
It's absolutely fucked up that less than 150,000 ultra-right bigots get to choose the next Prime Minister. General Election now please.
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Re: Politics in General
I object to you calling me an ultra-right bigot, to be honest.
And that's 150,000 people more than the zero who elected Gordon Brown.
And that's 150,000 people more than the zero who elected Gordon Brown.
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Re: Politics in General
Seriously, you're actually a member of the Conservative Party?Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:31 pm I object to you calling me an ultra-right bigot, to be honest.
And that's 150,000 people more than the zero who elected Gordon Brown.
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Re: Politics in General
Correct.JimBentley wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:50 pmSeriously, you're actually a member of the Conservative Party?Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:31 pm I object to you calling me an ultra-right bigot, to be honest.
And that's 150,000 people more than the zero who elected Gordon Brown.
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Re: Politics in General
Would Centre Right bigot be more aptRhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:43 pmCorrect.JimBentley wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:50 pmSeriously, you're actually a member of the Conservative Party?Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:31 pm I object to you calling me an ultra-right bigot, to be honest.
And that's 150,000 people more than the zero who elected Gordon Brown.
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OK, sorry Rhys, I didn't really mean it. I'm sure not all Conservative members are bigots, or of the ultra-right; some of you are probably quite reasonable people. Have you met many other members? What are they iike? Is it true that there's been a problem with entryism from UKIP and EDL types?Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:43 pmCorrect.JimBentley wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:50 pmSeriously, you're actually a member of the Conservative Party?Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:31 pm I object to you calling me an ultra-right bigot, to be honest.
And that's 150,000 people more than the zero who elected Gordon Brown.
Re: Politics in General
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/bigot
Irony alert...bigot (noun)
A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.
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Re: Politics in General
Yeah, well at some point you kind of realise that being all nicey-nicey to unreasonable people gets you nowhere and they sure aren't going to be all nicey-nicey back. So if being intolerant of right-wing arseholes like Tommy Robinson and Donald Trump and yes, some elements of the Conservative Party makes me a bigot, then fair fucks, I suppose I can embrace that.Fiona T wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:10 pm https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/bigot
Irony alert...bigot (noun)
A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.
Re: Politics in General
Not at all. Being intolerant of unpleasant individuals is entirely sensible. However, labelling an entire group of people (e.g Conservative party members as an example) as bigots is the definition of bigotry. I'd rather gouge my eyes out with a hot spoon than vote conservative, but I do recognise that there are good reasons why people choose to support them and the alternatives are found sadly wanting too.JimBentley wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:34 amYeah, well at some point you kind of realise that being all nicey-nicey to unreasonable people gets you nowhere and they sure aren't going to be all nicey-nicey back. So if being intolerant of right-wing arseholes like Tommy Robinson and Donald Trump and yes, some elements of the Conservative Party makes me a bigot, then fair fucks, I suppose I can embrace that.Fiona T wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:10 pm https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/bigot
Irony alert...bigot (noun)
A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.
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Re: Politics in General
Yeah, to be honest I didn't really mean that and kind of regretted my choice of words as soon as I'd posted it, but I thought it might get a rise out of Rhys so left it up anyway.Fiona T wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:40 amNot at all. Being intolerant of unpleasant individuals is entirely sensible. However, labelling an entire group of people (e.g Conservative party members as an example) as bigots is the definition of bigotry. I'd rather gouge my eyes out with a hot spoon than vote conservative, but I do recognise that there are good reasons why people choose to support them and the alternatives are found sadly wanting too.JimBentley wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:34 amYeah, well at some point you kind of realise that being all nicey-nicey to unreasonable people gets you nowhere and they sure aren't going to be all nicey-nicey back. So if being intolerant of right-wing arseholes like Tommy Robinson and Donald Trump and yes, some elements of the Conservative Party makes me a bigot, then fair fucks, I suppose I can embrace that.
I think my point still stands though, the next Prime Minister is going to be elected by a group of people whose views are pretty much completely unrepresentative of those of the general population of this country.
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Re: Politics in General
I've met a few people who are still within the party. I also know quite a few who subsequently left the party, lurched to the right, and set up Turning Point UK (I have bitched about it quite often that Brexit Party members shouldn't really be running the Conservative Association at Sussex University which I go to). On the whole, those I know who remained within the party are very reasonable. A lot of that loony faction (ever tried meeting a devout Catholic on a Sunday morning?) has been lured by BXP so there's really not a lot of numpties in the party any more.JimBentley wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:35 amOK, sorry Rhys, I didn't really mean it. I'm sure not all Conservative members are bigots, or of the ultra-right; some of you are probably quite reasonable people. Have you met many other members? What are they iike? Is it true that there's been a problem with entryism from UKIP and EDL types?Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:43 pmCorrect.JimBentley wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:50 pm
Seriously, you're actually a member of the Conservative Party?
The problem is that CCHQ are very disconnected from those who live outside SW1A. The members at large are overwhelmingly pro-Johnson (despite the media narrative, he's very much a liberal rather than a Farage-type conservative; he has a policy of an amnesty for illegal immigrants for example and wants a reduction in taxes virtually across the board), but there's been rumours that Johnson supporters have had their ballots mysteriously going missing in the post amongst others. CCHQ want nothing to do with Uni Associations either, which is a stupid policy as it's making a bad situation with the youth vote even worse. In short, CCHQ is very Blair-Mayist, whereas the membership, I would say, is neoliberal (in the proper, rather than overused sense of the word), Thatcherite, or Major-Cameronist.
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Cheers Rhys, I know I've taken the piss in the past (mainly because I'd never met a Young Conservative before) but this is interesting stuff. All told though, it's going to be Johnson, isn't it? Jeremy Hunt seems to have pretty much given up on it now.Rhys Benjamin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:41 pmI've met a few people who are still within the party. I also know quite a few who subsequently left the party, lurched to the right, and set up Turning Point UK (I have bitched about it quite often that Brexit Party members shouldn't really be running the Conservative Association at Sussex University which I go to). On the whole, those I know who remained within the party are very reasonable. A lot of that loony faction (ever tried meeting a devout Catholic on a Sunday morning?) has been lured by BXP so there's really not a lot of numpties in the party any more.JimBentley wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:35 amOK, sorry Rhys, I didn't really mean it. I'm sure not all Conservative members are bigots, or of the ultra-right; some of you are probably quite reasonable people. Have you met many other members? What are they iike? Is it true that there's been a problem with entryism from UKIP and EDL types?
The problem is that CCHQ are very disconnected from those who live outside SW1A. The members at large are overwhelmingly pro-Johnson (despite the media narrative, he's very much a liberal rather than a Farage-type conservative; he has a policy of an amnesty for illegal immigrants for example and wants a reduction in taxes virtually across the board), but there's been rumours that Johnson supporters have had their ballots mysteriously going missing in the post amongst others. CCHQ want nothing to do with Uni Associations either, which is a stupid policy as it's making a bad situation with the youth vote even worse. In short, CCHQ is very Blair-Mayist, whereas the membership, I would say, is neoliberal (in the proper, rather than overused sense of the word), Thatcherite, or Major-Cameronist.
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Re: Politics in General
But what counts as entire group of people? Members of a political party aren't the same as members of an ethnic group, for example, where it's not something they have a choice in. Would it be acceptable to say that all members of the KKK are bigots? Not that I'm saying this applies in reality to members of the Conservative party, but as a logical point there will be groups of people where every member is a bigot (even if some of these groups are very small). But certainly I don't think all members of the Conservative party are bigots - as far as I understand some of them genuinely think they are a force for good.Fiona T wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:40 amNot at all. Being intolerant of unpleasant individuals is entirely sensible. However, labelling an entire group of people (e.g Conservative party members as an example) as bigots is the definition of bigotry. I'd rather gouge my eyes out with a hot spoon than vote conservative, but I do recognise that there are good reasons why people choose to support them and the alternatives are found sadly wanting too.JimBentley wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:34 amYeah, well at some point you kind of realise that being all nicey-nicey to unreasonable people gets you nowhere and they sure aren't going to be all nicey-nicey back. So if being intolerant of right-wing arseholes like Tommy Robinson and Donald Trump and yes, some elements of the Conservative Party makes me a bigot, then fair fucks, I suppose I can embrace that.
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Re: Politics in General
James Cleverly is annoyed about the result in the Brecon and Radnorshire by-election because the remain parties didn't stand against each other to give the Lib Dems a better chance of winning. It's almost as if First Past the Post is an awful voting system isn't it, James?
On a separate note, I find it interesting that the Lib Dems have suddenly become "cool" again with their pro-remain stance. They went into political obscurity after going into coalition with the Tories, enabling austerity and going back on their main election promise about university tuition fees. However, the Greens have always been pro-EU, and never went into a disastrous coalition with the Tories, so I'd see them as a more credible option. I think people are too stuck in their ways when it comes to voting, and this also ties in with the first part of this post about our terrible voting system, which discourages voting for smaller parties.
On a separate note, I find it interesting that the Lib Dems have suddenly become "cool" again with their pro-remain stance. They went into political obscurity after going into coalition with the Tories, enabling austerity and going back on their main election promise about university tuition fees. However, the Greens have always been pro-EU, and never went into a disastrous coalition with the Tories, so I'd see them as a more credible option. I think people are too stuck in their ways when it comes to voting, and this also ties in with the first part of this post about our terrible voting system, which discourages voting for smaller parties.
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Re: Politics in General
Flares and Oxford bags would be cool before the fib Dems become cool againGavin Chipper wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:16 pm James Cleverly is annoyed about the result in the Brecon and Radnorshire by-election because the remain parties didn't stand against each other to give the Lib Dems a better chance of winning. It's almost as if First Past the Post is an awful voting system isn't it, James?
On a separate note, I find it interesting that the Lib Dems have suddenly become "cool" again with their pro-remain stance. They went into political obscurity after going into coalition with the Tories, enabling austerity and going back on their main election promise about university tuition fees. However, the Greens have always been pro-EU, and never went into a disastrous coalition with the Tories, so I'd see them as a more credible option. I think people are too stuck in their ways when it comes to voting, and this also ties in with the first part of this post about our terrible voting system, which discourages voting for smaller parties.
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Re: Politics in General
They're still the most prominent supporters of voting reform, which is more desperately needed by the minute. Although when the system gets gamed like this, it does cheer me up.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:16 pm James Cleverly is annoyed about the result in the Brecon and Radnorshire by-election because the remain parties didn't stand against each other to give the Lib Dems a better chance of winning. It's almost as if First Past the Post is an awful voting system isn't it, James?
On a separate note, I find it interesting that the Lib Dems have suddenly become "cool" again with their pro-remain stance. They went into political obscurity after going into coalition with the Tories, enabling austerity and going back on their main election promise about university tuition fees. However, the Greens have always been pro-EU, and never went into a disastrous coalition with the Tories, so I'd see them as a more credible option. I think people are too stuck in their ways when it comes to voting, and this also ties in with the first part of this post about our terrible voting system, which discourages voting for smaller parties.
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Re: Politics in General
That was why Clegg made the disastrous mistake of thinking he could get a referendum on voting reform by joining the coalition, even though it meant going back on the manifesto commitment to oppose university fees, which destroyed the credibility of the party. Of course, although he got the referendum, the big parties got together to ensure that the first-past-the-post system (which is heavily to their advantage) was not going to be replaced, Consequently when in coalition we did succeed in tempering many of the Tory proposals we were given no credit for our success.
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Re: Politics in General
Voting reforms would see around fifty Brexit Party MPs.
Just let that sink in for a bit before you realise it's not the answer.
Not that I have a scooby doo what is
Just let that sink in for a bit before you realise it's not the answer.
Not that I have a scooby doo what is
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