Politics in General

[Gavin Chipper]

Here is Krishnan Guru-Murthy interviewing the Israeli ambassador to the UK.

Here is Krishnan Guru-Murthy interviewing the Palestinian ambassador to the UK.

Compare, contrast, and draw your own conclusions.

[Tal Lessner]

Gavin, you seem to ignore a couple of important facts here.

The Hamas attack on 7th October was not just a terrorist operation, it was a coordinated attack, by thousands of infantry soldiers, and artillery, for the purpose of invading another country and executing as many (over a 1,000) civilians as possible. Not only executing, but torturing, burning, mutilating bodies, not discriminating between adults, children, babies or elders. And they filmed themselves doing it!
This was done by Hamas who governs Gaza. Not some small terrorist organization, but the government. With trained soldiers and specific goals.
That's an act that can only mean an outright declaration of war.
No country in the world will tolerate such an attack and not go to war to eliminate that said government who conducted such an attack.

The next thing you seem to ignore, is the fact that Hamas is the one putting civilians in the front. Its weapons are hidden in tunnels under buildings, it even prevented civilians evacuating the war zone after being warned of an imminent attack! The government that started the war, forces its own civilians to remain in the line of fire! The same government that's hiding weapons and tunnel entries inside its hospitals, schools and residential buildings!

So how is a country supposed to conduct a war against an army that uses its own civilians as human shields?

Now about the west bank, the occupation, the war crimes, settlements, apartheid - I'm probably a much bigger critic of that than you are. I even voted several time for Arab parties in the elections for that reason. But all that, doesn't change the fact that what Hamas did on 7th October is unprecedented, and Israel has all the justification to go on a full scale war against Hamas, until Hamas lays down its weapons and gets the fuck out of Gaza.

[Gavin Chipper]

First of all, Hamas likely exists in the form it does because of the oppression by Israel on the Palestinians for decades. It breeds terrorism. Also far more Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces over the decades than vice versa. Does it make such a difference that Hamas killed a lot of Israeli civilians in one go rather than far more but spread out over a longer period of time? The Israeli government is a terrorist organisation just as Hamas is. So if you're arguing that it's acceptable for Israel to kill over 10,000 Palestinians in response to what Hamas did, you could just as well argue that what Hamas did was acceptable as a response to decades of Israeli oppression. I would argue neither are acceptable of course.

It is also worth noting that some of the specific claims about the Hamas terrorist attack (including beheading babies) are unsubstantiated. While this doesn't make them in any way acceptable, it does cast doubt on this supposed massive difference between the two terrorist organisations involved here.

Israel's attacks have killed about 10 times as many people as Hamas's initial attack. Israel's response has been in no way proportionate or reasonable. As you say, this was a co-ordinated attack by Hamas, and it was probably the best they had. So there's no way more lives have been saved in the long run by killing 10 times as many Palestinians. Hamas don't have that capability. Sure, Israel want to destroy Hamas and its capabilities. But what if there was a terrorist group embedded within their own country? Would Israel kill 10,000 of their own citizens to wipe them out? No. Perhaps they don't value Palestinian lives particularly highly?

This thing about human shields - it does not explain or justify the widespread bombing of Gaza that we've seen. Unless you simply mean that by simply existing in Gaza at the same time as other people in Gaza, Hamas are using people as human shields.

[Marc Meakin]

First of all, Hamas likely exists in the form it does because of the oppression by Israel on the Palestinians for decades. It breeds terrorism. Also far more Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces over the decades than vice versa. Does it make such a difference that Hamas killed a lot of Israeli civilians in one go rather than far more but spread out over a longer period of time? The Israeli government is a terrorist organisation just as Hamas is. So if you're arguing that it's acceptable for Israel to kill over 10,000 Palestinians in response to what Hamas did, you could just as well argue that what Hamas did was acceptable as a response to decades of Israeli oppression. I would argue neither are acceptable of course.

It is also worth noting that some of the specific claims about the Hamas terrorist attack (including beheading babies) are unsubstantiated. While this doesn't make them in any way acceptable, it does cast doubt on this supposed massive difference between the two terrorist organisations involved here.

Israel's attacks have killed about 10 times as many people as Hamas's initial attack. Israel's response has been in no way proportionate or reasonable. As you say, this was a co-ordinated attack by Hamas, and it was probably the best they had. So there's no way more lives have been saved in the long run by killing 10 times as many Palestinians. Hamas don't have that capability. Sure, Israel want to destroy Hamas and its capabilities. But what if there was a terrorist group embedded within their own country? Would Israel kill 10,000 of their own citizens to wipe them out? No. Perhaps they don't value Palestinian lives particularly highly?

This thing about human shields - it does not explain or justify the widespread bombing of Gaza that we've seen. Unless you simply mean that by simply existing in Gaza at the same time as other people in Gaza, Hamas are using people as human shields.

Shouldn't this be in the unpopular opinion thread

[Gavin Chipper]

It's not that unpopular. I do recommend you watch those videos with the ambassadors by the way. They are quite long but I think worth the time. Or just start watching them and see how you find them. The differences between them are clear quite early on.

It's also generally accepted that the Israeli authorities are committing war crimes, and that they're serial liars.

[Gavin Chipper]

On a different subject, and a little bit late, I'm glad the COVID enquiry has shown that Boris Johnson is actually thick af.

[Marc Meakin]

It's not that unpopular. I do recommend you watch those videos with the ambassadors by the way. They are quite long but I think worth the time. Or just start watching them and see how you find them. The differences between them are clear quite early on.

It's also generally accepted that the Israeli authorities are committing war crimes, and that they're serial liars.

War Crimes is a broad area for discussion.
Tony B Liar, Both Bushes, Thatcher even ( remember The General Belgrano) Kissinger and others are guilty of this.

I am interested if the Palestinian people welcome Hamas representing them in the same way Yaser Arafat did.
There probably is a peaceful solution somewhere.
Unfortunately Hamas hate Jews so much that they would chooses the anihilation of every Jew as the only solution

[Tal Lessner]

It is also worth noting that some of the specific claims about the Hamas terrorist attack (including beheading babies) are unsubstantiated. While this doesn't make them in any way acceptable, it does cast doubt on this supposed massive difference between the two terrorist organisations involved here.

Which doubt does it cast? It was obvious from the beginning that the 40 beheaded babies story was fake, from a fake news far right American reporter. So what? There were children in the 1000+ executed civilians. There were many cases of rapes, with the more testimonies and evidence coming in the more is known as how widespread it was. There were hundreds of burnt and decapitated bodies. So that's what you've got? one fake article? What doubt is exactly cast here?
1000+ civilians executed - no doubt
widespread rape - no doubt
widespread torture - no doubt
mutilation of bodies - no doubt

But what if there was a terrorist group embedded within their own country? Would Israel kill 10,000 of their own citizens to wipe them out? No. Perhaps they don't value Palestinian lives particularly highly?

What the fuck did I just read here? Hamas is the government of Gaza. Not just a terrorist group embedded in. It was attack by the government and army of a foreign entity.

This thing about human shields - it does not explain or justify the widespread bombing of Gaza that we've seen. Unless you simply mean that by simply existing in Gaza at the same time as other people in Gaza, Hamas are using people as human shields.

They don't simply exist in Gaza at the same time as the people of Gaza. I meant that they use civilian structures as their military bases. How do you fight an army that hides its weaponry in hospitals and schools? Who physically prevents its civilians from evacuating an area after being warned that it'll be attacked the following day.
Hamas and the people of Gaza don't just exist at the same place at the same time. But the people of Gaza are used as human shields.

[Gavin Chipper]

It is also worth noting that some of the specific claims about the Hamas terrorist attack (including beheading babies) are unsubstantiated. While this doesn't make them in any way acceptable, it does cast doubt on this supposed massive difference between the two terrorist organisations involved here.

Which doubt does it cast? It was obvious from the beginning that the 40 beheaded babies story was fake, from a fake news far right American reporter. So what? There were children in the 1000+ executed civilians. There were many cases of rapes, with the more testimonies and evidence coming in the more is known as how widespread it was. There were hundreds of burnt and decapitated bodies. So that's what you've got? one fake article? What doubt is exactly cast here?
1000+ civilians executed - no doubt
widespread rape - no doubt
widespread torture - no doubt
mutilation of bodies - no doubt

The beheaded babies story was one of the headline things that people would keep bringing up, including Marc on this forum. The doubt is about the massive difference between Hamas and the Israeli authorities, and there have been multiple stories of Israel abusing, and even raping Palestinian prisoners, for example. This is not about defending Hamas.

But what if there was a terrorist group embedded within their own country? Would Israel kill 10,000 of their own citizens to wipe them out? No. Perhaps they don't value Palestinian lives particularly highly?

What the fuck did I just read here? Hamas is the government of Gaza. Not just a terrorist group embedded in. It was attack by the government and army of a foreign entity.

It was a hypothetical example - would Israel take such an approach to eliminate terrorists if they were embedded within their own population and try to justify it?

This thing about human shields - it does not explain or justify the widespread bombing of Gaza that we've seen. Unless you simply mean that by simply existing in Gaza at the same time as other people in Gaza, Hamas are using people as human shields.

They don't simply exist in Gaza at the same time as the people of Gaza. I meant that they use civilian structures as their military bases. How do you fight an army that hides its weaponry in hospitals and schools? Who physically prevents its civilians from evacuating an area after being warned that it'll be attacked the following day.
Hamas and the people of Gaza don't just exist at the same place at the same time. But the people of Gaza are used as human shields.

OK, but also Israel have made some claims about this that have turned out to be false, including the calendar they claimed was a list of Hamas terrorists. They have also been very selective about what journalists are allowed to see, so we have to take a lot of what they say on trust...

The bottom line is that regardless of these specifics, it is generally accepted that Israel is committing war crimes in responding in the way they are. Whether they are exactly as bad as Hamas is a side issue. Most people would regard Hamas as a terrorist organisation, and people do not on the whole defend them. The reason it is important to criticise what Israel are doing is that large numbers of people think they are behaving in a perfectly reasonable way. This forum is irrelevant obviously, but world leaders, journalists etc. need to speak out more.

[Tal Lessner]

Can't delete?

[Tal Lessner]

The beheaded babies story was one of the headline things that people would keep bringing up, including Marc on this forum. The doubt is about the massive difference between Hamas and the Israeli authorities, and there have been multiple stories of Israel abusing, and even raping Palestinian prisoners, for example. This is not about defending Hamas.

We're talking facts here. What difference between Hamas and the Israeli authorities is it? The number of executed people on 07.10? The fact there was widespread rape and torture? What difference exactly? Which of it is not considered 100% fact?

Also, what stories about raping Palestinian prisoners?

It was a hypothetical example - would Israel take such an approach to eliminate terrorists if they were embedded within their own population and try to justify it?

I get that it was hypothetical, but once again, you seem to ignore the fact that Hamas is not a terrorist organisation embedded within the population, but is, the government & army! So this is still a ridiculous comparison.

OK, but also Israel have made some claims about this that have turned out to be false, including the calendar they claimed was a list of Hamas terrorists. They have also been very selective about what journalists are allowed to see, so we have to take a lot of what they say on trust...

The bottom line is that regardless of these specifics, it is generally accepted that Israel is committing war crimes in responding in the way they are. Whether they are exactly as bad as Hamas is a side issue. Most people would regard Hamas as a terrorist organisation, and people do not on the whole defend them. The reason it is important to criticise what Israel are doing is that large numbers of people think they are behaving in a perfectly reasonable way. This forum is irrelevant obviously, but world leaders, journalists etc. need to speak out more.

Israeli occupation of the west bank is undoubtedly a war crime. From trigger happy soldiers to settler's violence (and in fact, the mere existence of settlements is a war crime) and apartheid regime.
But this is not the issue here, the issue here is the way the war in Gaza is conducted. And I would like to know what sort of war crimes Israel is committing there. Again, this is a war, and the army that started this war is hiding. How should Israel fight there?
Or should Israel just leave Hamas in peace and wait until its ready for the next round?

[Gavin Chipper]

We're talking facts here. What difference between Hamas and the Israeli authorities is it? The number of executed people on 07.10? The fact there was widespread rape and torture? What difference exactly? Which of it is not considered 100% fact?

Also, what stories about raping Palestinian prisoners?

The BBC reports Palestinian prisoners talking of abuse and threats of rape at least. I have read reports of rape, but it's possible the sources aren't reliable. In any case, my initial point about the beheading babies thing was that this was used (successfully on many people) to make out that Hamas were the only bad guys, and the poor innocent Israeli authorities are just defending themselves against these monsters. Both are the bad guys. The point is not really to find an exact equivalence.

It was a hypothetical example - would Israel take such an approach to eliminate terrorists if they were embedded within their own population and try to justify it?

I get that it was hypothetical, but once again, you seem to ignore the fact that Hamas is not a terrorist organisation embedded within the population, but is, the government & army! So this is still a ridiculous comparison.

I don't think the point I'm making is ridiculous, but OK, it's not going anywhere.

Israeli occupation of the west bank is undoubtedly a war crime. From trigger happy soldiers to settler's violence (and in fact, the mere existence of settlements is a war crime) and apartheid regime.
But this is not the issue here, the issue here is the way the war in Gaza is conducted. And I would like to know what sort of war crimes Israel is committing there. Again, this is a war, and the army that started this war is hiding. How should Israel fight there?
Or should Israel just leave Hamas in peace and wait until its ready for the next round?

The West Bank is not the only victim of Israel. Gaza has been described as an open air prison. But as for war crimes, the Wikipedia has a list of war crimes that both sides have been accused of.

As for what Israel should do, I don't have a specific answer. It's a complex situation and your random guy off the street is unlikely to have an answer. But pointing out things that are definitely wrong is not invalidated by not coming up with what to do instead. Israel has the responsibility not to commit war crimes regardless of my opinion.

[Tal Lessner]

No question that Israel is shite and criminals in relation to the West Bank or Gaza. Absolute villains. I know, and have always been vocal about it.

But the 07.10 attack changed everything. This is a war, a war that should not end until Hamas lays down its weapons and relinquishes all control in Gaza. It's a war Hamas 100% started. It's a war that no country in the world would stop had it been in Israel's place.

It's quite a shame that once you choose to identify with one side, you seem to ignore facts, or try to downplay or twist them to match your agenda. (Such as too many "doubts" about facts or comparing an imaginary local terrorist organisation to an attack conducted by a government and thousands of soldiers).

[Gavin Chipper]

It's quite a shame that once you choose to identify with one side, you seem to ignore facts, or try to downplay or twist them to match your agenda.

There's no discussion if you're resorting to this.

[Fiona T]

It's quite a shame that once you choose to identify with one side, you seem to ignore facts, or try to downplay or twist them to match your agenda.

There's no discussion if you're resorting to this.

I can't imagine what it must be like to be directly affected by this and my thoughts are with you Tal.

But it does seem like Israel's intent (and if not direct intent, then the result of their actions) is to render Gaza inhabitable. The residents cannot leave - there are no open borders. Most (more than half?) of the residents are children - they cannot have any responsibility for this - they are too young to have elected the government. Their government clearly has no regard for their lives or safety - does that mean that their lives are dispensable? I think that's what many of us can't condone. As to what the alternatives are - I've no idea. But eliminating Gaza and by association their civilian population is not an acceptable answer.

[Tal Lessner]

Fiona, I don't think it's Israel's intent to render Gaza inhabitable, had it been that case, they would have stuck with just aerial bombing instead of the casualties of sending infantry into Gaza.
I don't think any child in the history had any responsibility for a war breaking out. Same goes to many soldiers and other civilians.
As for the situation in Gaza, I think Israel is as responsible (and even holds greater responsibility as the obviously stronger power) for that clusterfuck. For years it has been Israel's extreme-right government's policy to strengthen Hamas and weaken the non-violent PA. Making sure there is a split between Gaza & the West Bank so no peaceful solution can be reached, what our great emperor-god Bibi would call "managing the conflict" rather than making any attempt to end it. There's even that speech he gave a few years back, stating that "anybody objecting a two states solution should support transferring funds to Hamas".
But then you have the other side, using so many resources in creating a terrorist infrastructure, from tunneling all of Gaza (it's quite insane, actually even impressive) and accruing as much firepower as possible instead of actually using those resources for their own people.

I do hope a solution can be found. Along the lines of Hamas officials and convicted terrorists taking a seat somewhere out of Gaza (Qatar seems to be a willing host to many of Hamas officials already, why not take a few more), even with a full release of all Hamas prisoners in Israel, in return for the remaining Israeli hostages. Then a big rebuild plan, involving as many countries in the region and parties with interest outside the region (Turkey? USA?), and allowing the PA to get their hold there.
I don't think any revenge for 07.10 will be useful.
But then, following the events of 07.10, I also don't think that anybody can accept a solution which doesn't include Hamas' being kicked out of power in Gaza.

Or just put Bibi & Sinwar in one room, lock the doors, and, hmm I don't know, they're both cowards so they won't fight each other, they both care more about small political gains than the well being of their people, so they won't negotiate any deal to end the war. Just stick them in a room and lose all keys. It won't end the war, but at least it'll give some happiness to both sides.

[Gavin Chipper]

OK, that's starting to sound a lot more reasonable now.

[Tal Lessner]

Cheers Gavin, note that none of what I wrote in reply to Fiona contradicts anything I wrote previously to you.
My issue with what you wrote was the downplaying of the magnitude of the 7/10 attack, and downplaying Hamas' involvement and objectives, both in the attack and as the government of Gaza.

[Gavin Chipper]

My aim wasn't to downplay. I was criticising primarily Israel from the start because of the underlying assumption that no-one would be defending Hamas, whereas views on Israel's actions had more disagreement about them.

[Tal Lessner]

OK, that's starting to sound more reasonable now.

[Rhys Benjamin]

First of all, Hamas likely exists in the form it does because of the oppression by Israel on the Palestinians for decades. It breeds terrorism. Also far more Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces over the decades than vice versa. Does it make such a difference that Hamas killed a lot of Israeli civilians in one go rather than far more but spread out over a longer period of time?

I've stayed out of this on here because I'm never going to change your mind, but this sounds dangerously close to making excuses for a proscribed terrorist organisation.

[Gavin Chipper]

First of all, Hamas likely exists in the form it does because of the oppression by Israel on the Palestinians for decades. It breeds terrorism. Also far more Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces over the decades than vice versa. Does it make such a difference that Hamas killed a lot of Israeli civilians in one go rather than far more but spread out over a longer period of time?

I've stayed out of this on here because I'm never going to change your mind, but this sounds dangerously close to making excuses for a proscribed terrorist organisation.

More an explanation than excuse.

[Marc Meakin]

If i started a debate about the IRA or the UDF being a terrorist organisation, I would expect Mark James and other people here who have grown up in Ireland or Northern Ireland to have an opinion and it would be legiiiised by that even if I disagreed but what gets the backs up of most Jews are these people defending Hamas without having lived under their rule.
I find it hilarious that Gevs mate Owen Jones being so outspoken as a gay man who would be thrown off the nearest roof in Gaza just for being gay.
Admittedly I have never be to Israel or Palestine so I cannot comment about everything with conviction but being of Jewish decent gives me the right to b outraged about the terrorism targeting mainly civilians.

On a seperated but not altogether unrelated matter I'm curious if the majority of the anti Israel demonstrations are from people under 30?

[Fiona T]

I find it hilarious that Gevs mate Owen Jones being so outspoken as a gay man who would be thrown off the nearest roof in Gaza just for being gay.

citation needed

[Gavin Chipper]

Owen Jones isn't defending Hamas. (Edit - and neither am I by the way.)

Edit - And it's not hard to understand the difference. In the early days of this, the BBC had to apologise for calling a pro-Palestinian rally a pro-Hamas rally. Absolute joke.

[Rhys Benjamin]

I find it hilarious that Gevs mate Owen Jones being so outspoken as a gay man who would be thrown off the nearest roof in Gaza just for being gay.

citation needed

Well, given Hamas have no tall buildings left…

[Fiona T]

I find it hilarious that Gevs mate Owen Jones being so outspoken as a gay man who would be thrown off the nearest roof in Gaza just for being gay.

citation needed

Well, given Hamas have no tall buildings left…

Well yeah there is that.

https://www.humandignitytrust.org/count ... palestine/

"Same-sex sexual activity is prohibited in Gaza under the British Mandate Criminal Code Ordinance 1936. The relevant provision carries a maximum penalty of ten years’ imprisonment. Only men are criminalised under this law.

The law was inherited from the British. It continues to be in operation in Gaza today, though it is not in force elsewhere in Palestine.

There is little evidence of the law being enforced, and it appears to be largely obsolete in practice. However, an incident in 2017 saw an author being threatened with prosecution for writing a novel which included LGBT themes. There do not appear to be any other reports of enforcement of the criminalising law or other laws. Nevertheless, the mere existence of this provision is itself a violation of human rights and underpins further acts of discrimination"

Which, far from being a good situation, is a very long way from people being chucked off buildings. I think Hamas have committed enough atrocities without the need for fabrication.

[Marc Meakin]

Cop 28.
Hopefully in a year or two Electric cars will be more viable, by which I mean every main petrol station will have fast charging ports, the cost of Buying Electric cars will fall

Mind you this doesn't help

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67693935

As a knock on, Electric bikes wil be destructed so you can go at 20 or 30 mph tmwith the caveat that they are insured with number plates mot etd, but the cost of insurance etc would be far less than cars and petrol bikes.

The hot mess of Electric scooters will be sorted out
Going to somewhere like Milton Keynes they are legal on the road as the are hired, so why not make them legal, again with caveat that personal scooters not only should have insurance and indicators and lights compulsory and batteries to be manufactured to EU or British standard and all batteries should be charged in a fire broof and explosion proof case or bag.
Something I had to buy in order to leave my bike safely at work

[Gavin Chipper]

Horsemeat scandal all over again.

[Gavin Chipper]

Cop 28.
Hopefully in a year or two Electric cars will be more viable, by which I mean every main petrol station will have fast charging ports, the cost of Buying Electric cars will fall

Mind you this doesn't help

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67693935

Automatic driving features aren't really related to the concept of electric cars in general though. I think it's also generally accepted that partial automation is the most dangerous option, because when people have to suddenly take over, they're not able to immediately be on the ball.

As a knock on, Electric bikes wil be destructed so you can go at 20 or 30 mph tmwith the caveat that they are insured with number plates mot etd, but the cost of insurance etc would be far less than cars and petrol bikes.

They self-destruct over 20 or 30mph? Interesting option.

[Gavin Chipper]

The IDF's mask has completely slipped now that they've murdered three Israeli released hostages. This is just the tip of the iceberg though. This behaviour happens as a matter of course, but it made the news because they killed citizens of their own country. It would be a pretty massive coincidence if this was actually a rare occurrence and they just happened to kill Israelis on the occasion they happened to go rogue. Sorry Marc, but you're getting an Owen Jones on the subject.

Edit - "Mistakenly killed". Interesting way of putting it.

[Marc Meakin]

Cop 28.
Hopefully in a year or two Electric cars will be more viable, by which I mean every main petrol station will have fast charging ports, the cost of Buying Electric cars will fall

Mind you this doesn't help

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67693935

Automatic driving features aren't really related to the concept of electric cars in general though. I think it's also generally accepted that partial automation is the most dangerous option, because when people have to suddenly take over, they're not able to immediately be on the ball.

As a knock on, Electric bikes wil be destructed so you can go at 20 or 30 mph tmwith the caveat that they are insured with number plates mot etd, but the cost of insurance etc would be far less than cars and petrol bikes.

They self-destruct over 20 or 30mph? Interesting option.

Doh, I meant derestricted

[Andres Sanchez]

Okay I very much wanna be educated a bit here especially in a space here FOR anything political.

As someone that knows nothing about Judaism other than having friends that are in that religion and a small grasp on what Chanukah is (or however you prefer spelling it) along with a few other Jewish holidays, what is the meaning of being a Zionist and why should the war that's currently happening against Palestine sparking a lot a heated debate?

With simple quick research I've received the idea that Zionism is the idea of the Jewish people wanting to have their own nation, but that's all I'm able to get from that. Other than that I am absolutely lost in what is going on other than that there's a war that's been going on for a while and now is the boiling point of it.

[Fiona T]

Bit of history here Andres

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-44124396

[Marc Meakin]

Bit of history here Andres

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-44124396

There is a YouTube clip with Rory Stewart talking about the history of Israel, it's pretty factual. (not party political)

[Tal Lessner]

what is the meaning of being a Zionist and why should the war that's currently happening against Palestine sparking a lot a heated debate?

With simple quick research I've received the idea that Zionism is the idea of the Jewish people wanting to have their own nation

About the Zionism bit, it's a pointless meaningless term. It's an idea that was formed in the late 19th century, and became pointless once Israel was formed.
So since then, it's just a term used to justify other political stances, mostly fascist, messianic, or racist ones, but also used for more moderate or even leftist opinions.

[Rhys Benjamin]

I don't know why Carol Vorderman became a full-time Twitter troll this year but her victimisation of Johnny Mercer and his wife has been appalling. The threats Johnny and his wife have received on the back of her abuse, and no action taken against Vorderman, is ridiculous.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Okay I very much wanna be educated a bit here especially in a space here FOR anything political.

As someone that knows nothing about Judaism other than having friends that are in that religion and a small grasp on what Chanukah is (or however you prefer spelling it) along with a few other Jewish holidays, what is the meaning of being a Zionist and why should the war that's currently happening against Palestine sparking a lot a heated debate?

With simple quick research I've received the idea that Zionism is the idea of the Jewish people wanting to have their own nation, but that's all I'm able to get from that. Other than that I am absolutely lost in what is going on other than that there's a war that's been going on for a while and now is the boiling point of it.

Zionism, yes, is the belief of a Jewish nation. No more, no less. Pro-Palestine people like to claim being "anti-Zionist" is not antisemitic, but I have always argued it is insofar as you are not calling for the deconstruction of any Muslim country, Pakistan in particular as it was formed in very similar circumstances to Israel.

The IDF have shown viewings to MPs of some of the videos taken by Hamas on 7 October. They are, truly, sickening. My colleague told me they wished everybody could see them but equally they would not want to see them again; the videos are that horrific. So do Israel have a right to respond? 100% yes, and I will not shy away from that, nor apologise for it? Are Israel going about it in the right way? Possibly not. Are the BBC, Sky, and other left-wing media complicit in the huge rise in antisemitism in recent years? Unquestionably. 7 in 10 Jewish people say they feel scared to express their identity in public right now. It is that - not stopping the boats, Mr Lineker - that is comparable to 1930s Germany. "Never again" is now.

Support for Hamas is a terrorist offence in the UK and the police have not been hard enough in enforcing the law.

[Mark James]

I am at that stage where I'm like, just show the fucking videos then. Or, if they are as atrocious as people say, at least describe what happens in them. I guarantee nothing anyone could say would justify the current Israeli response, of which I've actually seen videos of. Even if it was worse than what I have seen happening in Gaza, (including stuff that's happened before October 7), I would still call for a ceasefire. Anyone who asks the question "Are Israel going about it in the right way?" and answers with "Possibly not", is an odious cretin.

[Marc Meakin]

I am at that stage where I'm like, just show the fucking videos then. Or, if they are as atrocious as people say, at least describe what happens in them. I guarantee nothing anyone could say would justify the current Israeli response, of which I've actually seen videos of. Even if it was worse than what I have seen happening in Gaza, (including stuff that's happened before October 7), I would still call for a ceasefire. Anyone who asks the question "Are Israel going about it in the right way?" and answers with "Possibly not", is an odious cretin.

You've only got to look at the 6 day war to see that you don't fuck with Israel Gaza and the West Bank was taken as a result so they could make a fortress around Israel and currently the only way to attack Israel is with terrorist activities az they have the best air defence in the world.
If you couple that with the support of The US and The UK
They really do have virtual carte blanche and with Benny in charge they ain't gonna stop anytime soon
Factor in that Russia is preoccupied, even Iran are unlikely to get involved.

War is Hell, what the British people did to Dresden and What the Americans did to Tokyko (killing more people than the combined nukes) in retaliation doesn't bear thinking about.

Beyond Killing Jews I'm not sure what Hamas hoped to achieve by all this beyond stirring shit up so there could never be a lasting peace in the middle East and creating another global war

[Gavin Chipper]

Zionism, yes, is the belief of a Jewish nation. No more, no less. Pro-Palestine people like to claim being "anti-Zionist" is not antisemitic, but I have always argued it is insofar as you are not calling for the deconstruction of any Muslim country, Pakistan in particular as it was formed in very similar circumstances to Israel.

Well, it's setting up a religious state, and religion =/= race for starters, so it's not racist to criticise that. Setting up a state on religious grounds is not a good idea (not that it would be a good idea to have a state for a certain race either). It applies to any country that has done it. It's just that Israel is in the news more so it naturally gets discussed.

So do Israel have a right to respond? 100% yes, and I will not shy away from that, nor apologise for it? Are Israel going about it in the right way? Possibly not.

I'm not going to respond in the same way as Mark, but this is a very clear understatement - "Possibly not". Plus just saying that they have the right to respond without saying anything more is very much Tory party line (and Labour actually) and doesn't really add to the discussion.

Are the BBC, Sky, and other left-wing media complicit in the huge rise in antisemitism in recent years? Unquestionably.

Why do you think that? And left-wing - OK.

Beyond Killing Jews I'm not sure what Hamas hoped to achieve by all this beyond stirring shit up so there could never be a lasting peace in the middle East and creating another global war

I'm not going to try to understand exactly what was going through the heads of the Hamas nutters, but you could equally ask what Israel was doing suppressing Palestinians for decades. Did they not expect this sort of thing?

I think this attack on Gaza was likely to happen at some point anyway. This was just the trigger - the excuse for the Netanyahu regime to act in this way. Interestingly, Egypt supposedly warned Israel about the attack before it .happened, although Israel deny this. I don't want to go full conspiracy theory and say that Israel wanted this to happen, but rendering Gaza uninhabitable for Palestinians was their likely goal anyway (as Fiona alluded to above). Netanyahu famously showed the UN his new map of the Middle East without Palestine. And Netanyahu has been accused of quoting a genocidal biblical passage.

It happened now because of the Hamas terrorist attack, but you can be pretty sure that the Israeli government had this or something similar to it in their plans anyway. It was just a question of how they were going to engineer it. The Hamas attack provided.

[Marc Meakin]

Gev.
You will be telling me next Churchill knew about Pearl Harbour next.

With regards Benny N ignoring intelligence from Egypt, they have form with their secret service clocking up az mentioned in the film Golda, before the Yom Kippur war they switched off monitoring equipment in error.

I still think the timing of the BBCs legitimate political party/freedom fighters suited them because of the supposed "secret summit between Jews and Saudi hierarchy that was days away

[samir pilica]

What are the prospects of the South Africans succeeding at the ICJ? Does accusing someone of “genocidal acts” bear the same legal weight as accusing them of an outright genocide?

[Marc Meakin]

What are the prospects of the South Africans succeeding at the ICJ? Does accusing someone of “genocidal acts” bear the same legal weight as accusing them of an outright genocide?

Considering South Africa's history in the lady 2 or 3 centuries, one expects it to be laughed at.
Pots and Kettles etc

[Gavin Chipper]

What are the prospects of the South Africans succeeding at the ICJ? Does accusing someone of “genocidal acts” bear the same legal weight as accusing them of an outright genocide?

Considering South Africa's history in the lady 2 or 3 centuries, one expects it to be laughed at.
Pots and Kettles etc

I'm sure most South Africans are aware of the history of their country. I don't think it somehow disqualifies them from criticising what another country is doing now. I don't think those in power now were responsible for Apartheid in the past.

[Andy Wilson]

There have been over 10,000 children killed in this genocide since October. I have no ties to Palestine other than it is inhabited by human beings, but i can’t function as a normal human being while this continues. It’s affecting me pretty badly. I attend the weekly solidarity protests and an left in tears every week.

Your country forbids you from holding their banner in solidarity and anyone who speaks up is viewed as a terrorist supporter. Our own darling Rachel Riley continues her tiresome crusade, using support for Palestine as more ‘evidence’ of anti semitism. She hammered Corbyn and you guys ended up with Brexit. Well done

The Palestinians have been living in an apartheid state and it doesn’t surprise me that they are trying to fight for their rights against, let’s remember, a very far right wing Israeli regime.

Just how though. How are we here? How can the UK be so apathetic to this? Shame on you if you can’t sympathise with the people of Palestine and shame on you if you support this genocide.

They’re wiping out this nation. This won’t ever go away. The Israeli government is never going to be forgiven and this will not be good for the people of Israel. They will be resented for a long time.

I’m gonna go weep for a while now or maybe vomit. I ask you guys who are following the anti Palestine narrative to try and see sense here.

[Andy Wilson]

https://youtu.be/SfDs3eZnPp0?si=WLcuQzvaaxRW-PL0

[Fiona T]

Here's Vorders on public procurement and waste

https://youtu.be/uRG5fIYdrxI

Absolutely shocking

[Phil H]

The threats Johnny and his wife have received on the back of her abuse, and no action taken against Vorderman, is ridiculous.

This particular spat might not be the most important issue, but the idea that a public figure who criticises an elected politician should face criminal sanction, or even be restricted in their use of a social media platform, seems bizarre to say the least.

The only thing I've seen from Vorderman which could, at a stretch, qualify as "abuse" of the Mercers were her comments about them not having degrees - which I agree were dickish, but thankfully for many of us, it's not a crime (or, usually, a website ban offence) to be dickish.

[Fiona T]

The threats Johnny and his wife have received on the back of her abuse, and no action taken against Vorderman, is ridiculous.

This particular spat might not be the most important issue, but the idea that a public figure who criticises an elected politician should face criminal sanction, or even be restricted in their use of a social media platform, seems bizarre to say the least.

The only thing I've seen from Vorderman which could, at a stretch, qualify as "abuse" of the Mercers were her comments about them not having degrees - which I agree were dickish, but thankfully for many of us, it's not a crime (or, usually, a website ban offence) to be dickish.

Yeah haven't seen the Mercer stuff. To clarify, my 'shocking' comment was the content - the amount of money that has just disappeared, the manipulation of truth (lies) and general shit. I have a particular interest in Doug Barrowman who promoted contractor loan schemes (tax avoidance) that have landed lots of people with huge amount of debts to HMRC - the aggressive 'loan charge' has resulted in at least 10 related suicides from (admittedly somewhat naive) people who believed the tax avoidance arrangement he and his like was selling them was legit, although that isn't the content of this video. A thoroughly greedy nasty self-serving couple tho.

[Gavin Chipper]

There have been over 10,000 children killed in this genocide since October. I have no ties to Palestine other than it is inhabited by human beings, but i can’t function as a normal human being while this continues. It’s affecting me pretty badly. I attend the weekly solidarity protests and an left in tears every week.

Your country forbids you from holding their banner in solidarity and anyone who speaks up is viewed as a terrorist supporter. Our own darling Rachel Riley continues her tiresome crusade, using support for Palestine as more ‘evidence’ of anti semitism. She hammered Corbyn and you guys ended up with Brexit. Well done

The Palestinians have been living in an apartheid state and it doesn’t surprise me that they are trying to fight for their rights against, let’s remember, a very far right wing Israeli regime.

Just how though. How are we here? How can the UK be so apathetic to this? Shame on you if you can’t sympathise with the people of Palestine and shame on you if you support this genocide.

They’re wiping out this nation. This won’t ever go away. The Israeli government is never going to be forgiven and this will not be good for the people of Israel. They will be resented for a long time.

I’m gonna go weep for a while now or maybe vomit. I ask you guys who are following the anti Palestine narrative to try and see sense here.

This is a really good post by the way. It's not about having some argument where you're trying to get the better of someone. This is real people and real lives. And the Netanyahu regime has been doing all this with the support of the US and UK.

[Andy Wilson]

Thank you.

This is not a war. The Palestinians resorted to terrorism as a way of resisting a land grab.

There’s no coming back from this. Israel is trying to wipe them out. How can they exist as neighbours after this? Israel knows this.

Ireland endured persecution and invasion from England. Ireland resorted to terrorism as the civil rights of its people were denied. Before things got too out of hand we managed to de-escalate a lose lose situation that brought so much pain and terror. We are living next door. I’m a patriotic Irish guy and I love England and it’s people.

If it wasn’t for our relationship with the USA this might have been impossible. The UK and the USA are saying go ahead to Israel. Sure it’s only a few Arabs.

I despair.

[Marc Meakin]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/67807719
This is ridiculous, there is no advantage in pool

[Fiona T]

This is not a war. The Palestinians resorted to terrorism as a way of resisting a land grab.

What Hamas did is inexcusable and unjustifiable. Please don't legitimise it.

(What Israel are now doing is also inexcusable and unjustifiable. Two wrongs don't make a right)

Edit: Petition here https://www.oxfam.org.uk/get-involved/c ... efire-now/

[Gavin Chipper]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/67807719
This is ridiculous, there is no advantage in pool

OK, so for context:

A transgender pool champion says she received "vile" and "horrific" abuse online after her opponent refused to play her in a final.

Pinches said she did it out of "fairness", claiming transgender women have a competitive advantage.

Haynes disagrees with Pinches' stance and says the sport's authorities agree with her (Haynes).

"The world governing body.... looked into this, and couldn't find any evidence," Haynes told BBC Sport Wales.

"They didn't agree that males have an inherent advantage over females (in cue sports)."

Well, I think this is really just an argument for not having separate male and female tournaments.

[Marc Meakin]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/67807719
This is ridiculous, there is no advantage in pool

OK, so for context:

A transgender pool champion says she received "vile" and "horrific" abuse online after her opponent refused to play her in a final.

Pinches said she did it out of "fairness", claiming transgender women have a competitive advantage.

Haynes disagrees with Pinches' stance and says the sport's authorities agree with her (Haynes).

"The world governing body.... looked into this, and couldn't find any evidence," Haynes told BBC Sport Wales.

"They didn't agree that males have an inherent advantage over females (in cue sports)."

Well, I think this is really just an argument for not having separate male and female tournaments.

I think if those born as men have an unfair advantage in a sport that is not strength or speed related then all sports and games are fair game for this attitude.
Scrabble and FOCAL included.
I'm being flippant, of course but I think men only have an unfair advantage as more compete as they are less restricted than female parents for example in cue sports at least

[Jon O'Neill]

If there's no advantage, then why is the women's #1 ranked #118 in the open rankings?
The answer to this question is the reason why there's a protected category, regardless of size, strength, speed and power advantages.

[Marc Meakin]

If there's no advantage, then why is the women's #1 ranked #118 in the open rankings?
The answer to this question is the reason why there's a protected category, regardless of size, strength, speed and power advantages.

Its not a level playing field in the same way that there are less established composers, artists and in enters that were women.
How many Women play pool compared to men?

[Marc Meakin]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-67922410
About fucking time

[Jon O'Neill]

If there's no advantage, then why is the women's #1 ranked #118 in the open rankings?
The answer to this question is the reason why there's a protected category, regardless of size, strength, speed and power advantages.

Its not a level playing field in the same way that there are less established composers, artists and in enters that were women.
How many Women play pool compared to men?

Yes. That is the answer.