c4countdown

Is it only me who is becoming increasingly concerned as to why some of the most popular or/and the most prolific forumites are leaving at the moment.

Forum more popular than ever >> More people = More different types of people >> More different people = more varied opinions, attitudes, and styles >> More disagreements

Just one of those things?

*jumps in before Michael Wallace*

Hibernation.

I don't know about lately, but quite a lot of people over time have basically said that they feel that this place is too hostile. It's difficult because I think it would be wrong to shy away from certain controversial topics and posting your opinions, but sometimes there's a fine line between that and coming across as rude, and people have different levels of sensitivity.

I think it also comes from the fact that some people, rightly or wrongly, have found Charlie hostile and they see him as the "face" of this forum. But then it's worth reading some of the stuff in this thread. Stuff like:

Charlie Reams wrote:When I say I don't like some particular posts, that's just me talking as a user

and

Charlie Reams wrote:Almost everything comes across meaner in text, and I'm usually too lazy/apathetic to tone done my phrasing accordingly.

and not forgetting

Charlie Reams wrote:Yes, I am a smug git, but I probably am the best person in the world so I think it's justified in this case.

Hostile? This forum is mild compared to most.

Darren Carter wrote:Hostile? This forum is mild compared to most.

Exactly. It depends where your tolerance of fuckery lies, but nobody's posted anything especially inflammatory lately have they? I've missed it if they have.

Darren Carter wrote:Hostile? This forum is mild compared to most.

This.

I have yet to miss anyone who has stormed off in a huff.

If you can't handle a few sarky comments in an anonymous forum, you're generally gonna lose at the game of life.

Having a sulk when you get criticised and storming off is pretty sad really.

The two posts directly above this one are two of the most accurate I've read on any forum anywhere ever. Just look at Digital Spy for instance- my infrequent trawls through that place make this place look like a hippie love-in.

Hey Neb, want a hug?

Matthew Green wrote:Having a sulk when you get criticised and storming off is pretty sad really.

Surely having a sulk when you get criticised and not storming off and arguing the toss and getting on everyone's nerve by doing so is more sad.

Oliver Garner wrote:

Matthew Green wrote:Having a sulk when you get criticised and storming off is pretty sad really.

Surely having a sulk when you get criticised and not storming off and arguing the toss and getting on everyone's nerve by doing so is more sad.

I DISAGREE AND NOW I'M LEAVING.

When you have a forum with nearly 1000 users (no idea how many active ones), some people are gonna disagree. Some people will say some stuff you don't want to hear. Some people are even going to dislike you personally. It seems a bit pointless to leave because of that, but people will do what they like. I don't shed any tears for anyone who's left, and in some cases I'm pleased to see the back of them.

Charlie Reams wrote:Hey Neb, want a hug?

Back off.

On the subject of hostility; This forum is a little bit more hostile than real life. But it is a lot less hostile than the average internet forums, as many would also testify. My opinion is this; Often, people who spend a lot of time on their own on the internet/computer become a little warped, self-obsessed and closed-minded. This isn't always the case, but it often seems to happen. I occasionally post on a forum for a dungeons and dragons online roleplaying game. The general level of sarcastic bitchiness there is off the hook; to the extent that it's the norm, and upstanding, mentally stable people are often victimised. There is rarely ever a post there which doesn't include some sort of subtle dig at someone else (often followed by '>.>', which I gather is normally added to disguise malice), and it sometimes descends into outright flaming. But, a lot of the people there probably spend their lives playing a game. While the C4Countdown forum is a little more hostile than real, everyday life, probably because there are a few slightly egotistical nerds here, it's really not that bad compared to most of the internet. However, people unaccustomed to the internet are likely to find it, at times, quite annoying here.

I’ve just been alerted to this poll and seems I’ve dropped in at an opportune moment!!

Don’t know what Charlie's refering to, but FTR, I didn’t ‘disgree’ with anything.

However, when the annoying yap of next door’s badly disciplined ankle-biter is getting on your nerves, eventually, you get up and the shut window.

Sue Sanders wrote:Don’t know what Charlie's refering to, but FTR, I didn’t ‘disgree’ with anything.

Evidently you didn't leave either (more's the pity).

I would add that one doesn't have to be targeted oneself to feel
upset or aggrieved about something.

Charlie Reams wrote: Evidently you didn't leave either (more's the pity).

Man, stop being so harsh!

Cheers Kirk - It's a world built on sand. Now, Charlie can unclench his sorry little sphincter because I'm going again.

Sue Sanders wrote:Cheers Kirk - It's a world built on sand. Now, Charlie can unclench his sorry little sphincter because I'm going again.

I have no idea what this means but, err, bye!

Charlie Reams wrote:

Sue Sanders wrote:Don’t know what Charlie's refering to, but FTR, I didn’t ‘disgree’ with anything.

Evidently you didn't leave either (more's the pity).

Dude, is there some sort of history between you two that we are not aware of,because you sure have it in for Sue for some reason.

Marc Meakin wrote:Dude, is there some sort of history between you two that we are not aware of, because you sure have it in for Sue for some reason.

Don't think so. I don't have any particularly strong opinion about Sue, since she's hardly unique in being a bit dim, but I'll give as good as I get while she keeps trying so very hard to put me down. I think it's been amply demonstrated by now that she's a criminally easy target of mockery, and if I had to pick a favourite it'd be this one where she echoed exactly what I'd just said but apparently thought she was correcting me. Maybe she is unique in terms of the distance between the strength of her opinions and the power of her brain, but then she is The People's Champion, so what can you do?

I have to say that Kirk's post raised a smile, since he seems to be expressing the commonly-held opinion that it's bad to make someone else look stupid, even when that person is only posting to engage in some fairly childish name-calling. Cheers pal! (PS She still won't have sex with you.)

Charlie Reams wrote:(PS She still won't have sex with you.)

Ooh, I reckon she will now, just to prove you wrong.

Richard Brittain wrote:On the subject of hostility; This forum is a little bit more hostile than real life. But it is a lot less hostile than the average internet forums, as many would also testify. ...... While the C4Countdown forum is a little more hostile than real, everyday life, probably because there are a few slightly egotistical nerds here, it's really not that bad compared to most of the internet. However, people unaccustomed to the internet are likely to find it, at times, quite annoying here.

This is true, and I often ask advice from my eldest 2 sons when I have difficulties with threads on here, since they belong to some incredibly nerdy forums. Still, '2 wrongs don't make a right', and just because other forums are worse, doesn't make it OK to have a go at others on here.

May I be a little sexist here, and also offer up the opinion that it is an attitude more often held by blokes that 'it's OK to say anything to anyone and if they can't take it, they should toughen up'. It can therefore be quite hurtful to women in particular (although it's not OK to be nasty to anyone, male or female) when they (or someone/something they care about) are attacked, even if the poster had only meant to be jocular or thought-provoking, as we're not so used to this behaviour.

Most forum members are fine, and even some of those who aren't now seem to at least get that some others don't appreciate the digs. I won't embarrass anyone by naming names, but I've had an occasional PM apology, as well as 'I meant it as a joke, of course' PMs, which is a start.

Of course, female-dominated forums have their own faults, and I left a parenting forum a while back, when I got fed up of its cliques and bitchiness. I actually got banned from one area of it, when I dared to bite back after a personal attack on my parenting style.

I occasionally consider leaving this forum, but my love of Countdown, and the vast majority of entertaining threads on here, as well as apterous, keeps me coming back. I did try to stick to apterous only for a while, but found it difficult to avoid the apterous topic area to keep up to date, and then got sucked into the rest.

I hope that Sue comes back in the New Year. I had a break over Christmas last year, as I didn't want to be upset over the festivities, as well as being too busy with my kids. So, don't get your hopes up if I disappear for a couple of weeks!

The last prominent person to leave the forum was SE. The rest are hardly more than n00bs and I for one couldn't give a fuck if somebody decides to take the huff because they got insulted on an Internet forum -- FFS get a grip!

Absolute piffle! The real reason so many people are disappearing is that I'm creating a new internet forum based, real Murder-mystery called Charlie's Island. No one will suspect a thing as the the first few "mishaps" will be few and far between including O'Donnell being tragically crushed by a precarious bookcase and Jeff Clayton run over by his own bus in a 2 part Christmas special not to be missed. And the first corpse won't be found until COLIN when Junaid's (yes you wondered why he'd stopped posting) dismembered body falling from the ceiling disrupts the day's proceedings and bloody mayhem ensues as the killer (Kai probably) starts piling up the bodies, and only 4...no...3 people will get out alive!

Dinos Sfyris wrote:Absolute piffle! The real reason so many people are disappearing is that I'm creating a new internet forum based, real Murder-mystery called Charlie's Island. No one will suspect a thing as the the first few "mishaps" will be few and far between including O'Donnell being tragically crushed by a precarious bookcase and Jeff Clayton run over by his own bus in a 2 part Christmas special not to be missed. And the first corpse won't be found until COLIN when Junaid's (yes you wondered why he'd stopped posting) dismembered body falling from the ceiling disrupts the day's proceedings and bloody mayhem ensues as the killer (Kai probably) starts piling up the bodies, and only 4...no...3 people will get out alive!

Brilliant!

p.s. Bagsy be one of the three.

Dinos Sfyris wrote:Absolute piffle! The real reason so many people are disappearing is that I'm creating a new internet forum based, real Murder-mystery called Charlie's Island. No one will suspect a thing as the the first few "mishaps" will be few and far between including O'Donnell being tragically crushed by a precarious bookcase and Jeff Clayton run over by his own bus in a 2 part Christmas special not to be missed. And the first corpse won't be found until COLIN when Junaid's (yes you wondered why he'd stopped posting) dismembered body falling from the ceiling disrupts the day's proceedings and bloody mayhem ensues as the killer (Kai probably) starts piling up the bodies, and only 4...no...3 people will get out alive!

Dinos – I LOVE it. Who are you going to get to write your murder mystery scenario? I’m thinking …. someone who practises misdirection and is shit hot at writing fiction

Sue Sanders wrote:

Dinos Sfyris wrote:Absolute piffle! The real reason so many people are disappearing is that I'm creating a new internet forum based, real Murder-mystery called Charlie's Island. No one will suspect a thing as the the first few "mishaps" will be few and far between including O'Donnell being tragically crushed by a precarious bookcase and Jeff Clayton run over by his own bus in a 2 part Christmas special not to be missed. And the first corpse won't be found until COLIN when Junaid's (yes you wondered why he'd stopped posting) dismembered body falling from the ceiling disrupts the day's proceedings and bloody mayhem ensues as the killer (Kai probably) starts piling up the bodies, and only 4...no...3 people will get out alive!

Dinos – I LOVE it. Who are you going to get to write your murder mystery scenario? I’m thinking …. someone who practises misdirection and is shit hot at writing fiction

Is that a hybrid of Derren and Dan Brown?

Julie T wrote:May I be a little sexist here, and also offer up the opinion that it is an attitude more often held by blokes that 'it's OK to say anything to anyone and if they can't take it, they should toughen up'.

There's probably an element of tuth in that but I think it's also (indeed perhaps more) a generational thing. I've often been quite taken aback by the tone that posters employ towards one another on this forum. Given that the forum was (presumably) established to foster links between people who have a shared interest in Countdown, it seems a little odd to then expend energy on unpleasantries.

I belong to other Internet forums where the membership is generally a little older and, while we obviously have our differences these very arrely spill over into antagonism. People can argue all they like about where posters are dim - intelligence (as you will all discover as you get older) has very little to do with it; it's maturity that counts. With maturity comes respect for one's fellows.

I'll say 'hear hear' to that Andy - but what I might just as well say is blah, blah, blah 'championing the people' blah, blah, blah, because some brains only compute what they want to pick out for ridicule. Strange how, before maturity, comes this inate sense of one's own superiority.

Sue Sanders wrote:Strange how, before maturity, comes this inate sense of one's own superiority.

In which case we can presumably all look forward to your forthcoming maturity!

Charlie Reams wrote:In which case we can presumably all look forward to your forthcoming maturity!

A fine soliloquy indeed.

Sue Sanders wrote:

Dinos Sfyris wrote:Absolute piffle! The real reason so many people are disappearing is that I'm creating a new internet forum based, real Murder-mystery called Charlie's Island. No one will suspect a thing as the the first few "mishaps" will be few and far between including O'Donnell being tragically crushed by a precarious bookcase and Jeff Clayton run over by his own bus in a 2 part Christmas special not to be missed. And the first corpse won't be found until COLIN when Junaid's (yes you wondered why he'd stopped posting) dismembered body falling from the ceiling disrupts the day's proceedings and bloody mayhem ensues as the killer (Kai probably) starts piling up the bodies, and only 4...no...3 people will get out alive!

Dinos – I LOVE it. Who are you going to get to write your murder mystery scenario? I’m thinking …. someone who practises misdirection and is shit hot at writing fiction

Clare Sudbery!

Charlie Reams wrote:

Sue Sanders wrote:Strange how, before maturity, comes this inate sense of one's own superiority.

In which case we can presumably all look forward to your forthcoming maturity!

Priceless Charlie. You're really making me chuckle now.... You did 'bang bang, you're dead', and now you've regressed to the 'what you say is what you are' retort.

It's a bit cold out for short trousers

My thoughts on this for what they are worth (probably not much).

The people who have recently left or decided to have a lower profile seem (as far as I am aware) to have been fairly prolific posters. It may be inevitable that, if you post on such a frequent basis, at some point someone is likely to take issue with something you say (and then battle ensues).

A comment can often seem far harsher when written rather than spoken so maybe, if we are going to criticise someone, we should re-read our post a couple of times and think about how we would feel if we were the recipient. For example, I have written and deleted some good chunks of text just now as I fear they might give (unintentional) offence to someone.

Finally..... Charlie and Sue, stop it!!! Or I shall bang your heads together!! It's gone on long enough and I for one have no idea why you feel such animosity towards each other. I don't really care but I'd like it to stop as it creates an unpleasant atmosphere here. Please call a truce.

Karen Pearson wrote:Finally..... Charlie and Sue, stop it!!! Or I shall bang your heads together!! It's gone on long enough and I for one have no idea why you feel such animosity towards each other. I don't really care but I'd like it to stop as it creates an unpleasant atmosphere here. Please call a truce.

I was about to type something pretty much saying the same thing, except with more swearing. But Karen's put it better than I would have done so I'll just say "I agree with this post".

Karen Pearson wrote:My thoughts on this for what they are worth (probably not much).

The people who have recently left or decided to have a lower profile seem (as far as I am aware) to have been fairly prolific posters. It may be inevitable that, if you post on such a frequent basis, at some point someone is likely to take issue with something you say (and then battle ensues).

A comment can often seem far harsher when written rather than spoken so maybe, if we are going to criticise someone, we should re-read our post a couple of times and think about how we would feel if we were the recipient. For example, I have written and deleted some good chunks of text just now as I fear they might give (unintentional) offence to someone.

Finally..... Charlie and Sue, stop it!!! Or I shall bang your heads together!! It's gone on long enough and I for one have no idea why you feel such animosity towards each other. I don't really care but I'd like it to stop as it creates an unpleasant atmosphere here. Please call a truce.

Karen - You have hit the nail firmly on the head in exactly the right tone. Thank goodness for the voice of reason.
Thank you very much!

I'm sorry, Sue, for insulting you personally. In future I will endeavour to avoid making things personal, however much I disagree with you or anyone else on some factual point, because it never gets us anywhere, and also I imagine it's fairly tedious for anyone else to read.

Charlie Reams wrote:I'm sorry, Sue, for insulting you personally. In future I will endeavour to avoid making things personal, however much I disagree with you or anyone else on some factual point, because it never gets us anywhere, and also I imagine it's fairly tedious for anyone else to read.

I'm sure that you will mellow quite a bit as you get older Charlie. I speak from personal experience,

Apology accepted.

Charlie Reams wrote:I'm sorry, Sue, for insulting you personally. In future I will endeavour to avoid making things personal, however much I disagree with you or anyone else on some factual point, because it never gets us anywhere, and also I imagine it's fairly tedious for anyone else to read.

That's it, I'm leaving.

Sue Sanders wrote:Apology accepted.

...the implication being you don't think you should make one yourself?

I think the problem here is jealously. Charlie always wanted to be a girl so that he could be called Sue.

Gavin Chipper wrote:I think the problem here is jealously. Charlie always wanted to be a girl so that he could be called Sue.

QFT.

I've seen miles more hostile forums, you do however sometimes get a sense of feeling that if you haven't been a contestant on the show, when pointing when you have beaten a TV contestant, from the comfort of your home, on a particular word or game, it is frowned upon and you get branded an "armchair hero" or you get looked upon as a cretin/scum/bounder/cad etc. whereas it seems when ex-contestants do it, it is perfectally acceptable and on the whole they are looked upon more favourably. I thought the whole idea of the forum was to be a talking place for all types: ex-contestants, newbies, "armchair heroes", fans of the show, (WUMs excluded) etc to express their views on an equal footing without any fear of reprisal.

Of course I could be reading the whole situation completely wrongly(most likely) and sincere apologies if that is the case. Plus feel free to brand me a wally etc if that is indeed the case, I can take it.

Jojo Apollo wrote:I've seen miles more hostile forums, you do however sometimes get a sense of feeling that if you haven't been a contestant on the show, when pointing when you have beaten a TV contestant, from the comfort of your home, on a particular word or game, it is frowned upon and you get branded an "armchair hero" or you get looked upon as a cretin/scum/bounder/cad etc. whereas it seems when ex-contestants do it, it is perfectally acceptable and on the whole they are looked upon more favourably. I thought the whole idea of the forum was to be a talking place for all types: ex-contestants, newbies, "armchair heroes", fans of the show, (WUMs excluded) etc to express their views on an equal footing without any fear of reprisal.

Of course I could be reading the whole situation completely wrongly(most likely) and sincere apologies if that is the case. Plus feel free to brand me a wally etc if that is indeed the case, I can take it.

No one minds you posting DC beaters or whatever. Some people consider it quite impolite to advertise the fact that you beat some contestant from home, and it is completely meaningless since they aren't playing you and you have none of the pressure. I know I've been guilty of it in the past, because that perspective never really occurred to me, and some people don't mind it. Anyway I think you're pretty cool so don't worry.

Charlie Reams wrote:

Jojo Apollo wrote:I've seen miles more hostile forums, you do however sometimes get a sense of feeling that if you haven't been a contestant on the show, when pointing when you have beaten a TV contestant, from the comfort of your home, on a particular word or game, it is frowned upon and you get branded an "armchair hero" or you get looked upon as a cretin/scum/bounder/cad etc. whereas it seems when ex-contestants do it, it is perfectally acceptable and on the whole they are looked upon more favourably. I thought the whole idea of the forum was to be a talking place for all types: ex-contestants, newbies, "armchair heroes", fans of the show, (WUMs excluded) etc to express their views on an equal footing without any fear of reprisal.

Of course I could be reading the whole situation completely wrongly(most likely) and sincere apologies if that is the case. Plus feel free to brand me a wally etc if that is indeed the case, I can take it.

No one minds you posting DC beaters or whatever. Some people consider it quite impolite to advertise the fact that you beat some contestant from home, and it is completely meaningless since they aren't playing you and you have none of the pressure. I know I've been guilty of it in the past, because that perspective never really occurred to me, and some people don't mind it. Anyway I think you're pretty cool so don't worry.

Cheers Charlie, much appreciated. Yeah, I hear what you are saying and know it is meaningless, but for us mere mortals who have never been on the show and who would be a bag of nerves and probably wouldn't get past the auditions, you do get a very small sense of pride (however false) when you beat a top contestant or a great on any particular round, however fleeting the moment, because most times you are getting hammered out of sight. I suppose it's like when John Higgins missed that "very easy" Brown in the Snooker final on Sunday, most club players would say: "how could he miss that?" and "I could have potted that with my eyes shut" etc, when we all know the pressure is a lot less in the clubs. But you know what I mean it gives them some reassurance I suppose, that maybe one day they can compete at top level (however unlikely).

So I guess what I'm saying, is for those that point it out, or "boast", maybe they can be more forgiven or excused/not looked down upon.

I don't think I've done that (boasting that is) at any time (perhaps unconciously?), I think I can beat you all anyway (only joking!)

ps. Keep up the good work, I've thoroughly enjoyed my time on the forum this past year, some great threads and info about the show we all enjoy, and I look forward to joining in more in the future. The brilliant Apterous website is, in particular, the thing I have enjoyed most . Hopefully you can flog a few offline versions on ebay (hint hint)

Jojo Apollo wrote: So I guess what I'm saying, is for those that point it out, or "boast", maybe they can be more forgiven or excused/not looked down upon.

I think the difference is that John Higgins isn't in the club with the bunch of people claiming they would've potted that brown (good topical example by the way ). When my shows were broadcast, I said explicitly that I wasn't bothered if people wanted to post on here that they'd beaten me (an offer which was widely taken up), but other people might reasonably be more sensitive about that kind of thing. I dunno, it's not a big deal to me either way. Just a-sayin'.

Charlie Reams wrote:

Jojo Apollo wrote: So I guess what I'm saying, is for those that point it out, or "boast", maybe they can be more forgiven or excused/not looked down upon.

I think the difference is that John Higgins isn't in the club with the bunch of people claiming they would've potted that brown (good topical example by the way ). When my shows were broadcast, I said explicitly that I wasn't bothered if people wanted to post on here that they'd beaten me (an offer which was widely taken up), but other people might reasonably be more sensitive about that kind of thing. I dunno, it's not a big deal to me either way. Just a-sayin'.

Oh yeah, good point, I never thought of it from that angle. I can well imagine Higgins getting even angrier than he was at the time, if somebody shouted that out from the crowd. Reminds me of the late great David Vine rubbing salt into the wound of Jimmy White when he missed (some would cruelly say: "bottled") that "easy" black in the final frame of the world champs, and Vine said in the final interview: "Even I could have got that", then went on to wish him a happy birthday (or was that from another of his losses in the final?) Jimmy looked like he wanted to lay one on Vine, unsurprisingly.

Sue replied to my post in PM, so I'm going to maintain this cycle of replying not in the place something was posted by replying here. (I have not quoted all of it, just the relevant part to my response.)

Sue Sanders wrote:

Michael Wallace wrote:

Sue Sanders wrote:Apology accepted.

...the implication being you don't think you should make one yourself?

No, Michael. I'm not going to apologise for being called 'dim', 'a good target for mockery', and having it stated that my contributions are considered worthless by everyone.

And not for calling someone immature, or a "badly disciplined ankle-biter" either, apparently. Well now we know.

What's the point in having a PM facility if you go and publicise it

Marc Meakin wrote:What's the point in having a PM facility if you go and publicise it

I wanted to make my point publicly, in case people had missed the fact that Charlie had apologised for his ad hominem attacks, but Sue hadn't for hers.

Michael Wallace wrote:

Marc Meakin wrote:What's the point in having a PM facility if you go and publicise it

I wanted to make my point publicly, in case people had missed the fact that Charlie had apologised for his ad hominem attacks, but Sue hadn't for hers.

The fact that Sue hadn't responded in this thread makes that obvious, although she could have had responded to him privately for all you know.
Maybe, Sue needs more time to cool down before apologising (shit, I am sounding like the new 'Peoples Champion')

Ah, so the raccoon's not so cute and cuddly after all. Sometimes he can leave a nasty smell more befitting his cousin the skunk.

I have been taking a break from posting, for the sake of my and everybody else's sanity, because Charles Reams has been getting on my nerves lately.

Well, I've managed 6 days, but may as well start easing myself back in now. I was waiting for the finals to be screened to see how I felt after a few more days, and because I wanted to see the discussion about them as I was there. Then I was going to decide whether to leave here or not.

Charles Reams and Sue have now called an uneasy truce, so it is pointless for the raccoon or anyone else to try and reignite their debate again on technicalities. If he can find an instant of Sue randomly attacking Charles out of the blue, he would have a point.

Since the aforementioned Mr. Reams has decided to tone down one side of his personality and allow another to shine, I have begun to rather enjoy his posts again. As for Sue, she is entitled to stay away for a bit longer if she wants to. Nobody should post until they feel comfortable doing so. With a new year and COLIN coming up, there will be plenty of opportunity for reanalysis and reflection.

Derek Hazell wrote:Ah, so the raccoon's not so cute and cuddly after all. Sometimes he can leave a nasty smell more befitting his cousin the skunk.

I have been taking a break from posting, for the sake of my and everybody else's sanity, because Charles Reams has been getting on my nerves lately.

Two personal attacks in two paragraphs. It's good to have you back.

Guys! Please can we just drop it now!!

Sue and Charlie are never going to agree and seem to accept that. Charlie has apoligised (which I think was a mature thing to do) and Sue has accepted it. I think we should just leave it there. There is nothing to be gained by keeping it going!

Karen Pearson wrote:Guys! Please can we just drop it now!!

Sue and Charlie are never going to agree and seem to accept that. Charlie has apoligised (which I think was a mature thing to do) and Sue has accepted it. I think we should just leave it there. There is nothing to be gained by keeping it going!

Well Dez is posting again so thats a gain

Karen Pearson wrote:Guys! Please can we just drop it now!!

Sue and Charlie are never going to agree and seem to accept that. ... There is nothing to be gained by keeping it going!

Could you please post something similar in the Football thread?