c4countdown

This probably won't help - other than indicate there isn't a God, but there is a fallible Mother Nature (and put you off thinking of kittens when you masturbate)

Sue Sanders wrote:

This probably won't help - other than indicate there isn't a God, but there is a fallible Mother Nature (and put you off thinking of kittens when you masturbate)

Call me cynical, but that has to be photoshopped.

I'll asked the girl who posted it on my Facebook. She commented 'it lasted for a day, poor thing' which doesn't sound like it was photoshopped. But she is a lying bastard Aussie.

That's incredible. I saw this before I went to bed and last night I had a dream that both of my cats had one eye all of a sudden!

Jon O'Neill wrote:That's incredible. I saw this before I went to bed and last night I had a dream that both of my cats had one eye all of a sudden!

I think I remember the punchline to this one...

Have had it on good faith - the kitten is genuine.

Phil Reynolds wrote:

Jon O'Neill wrote:That's incredible. I saw this before I went to bed and last night I had a dream that both of my cats had one eye all of a sudden!

I think I remember the punchline to this one...

Been trying to work this one out but really...I've got no eyed deer

Sue Sanders wrote:Have had it on good faith - the kitten is genuine.

Snopes says it's genuine, that's all I need.

Jon Corby wrote:

Sue Sanders wrote:Have had it on good faith - the kitten is genuine.

Snopes says it's genuine, that's all I need.

As reliable (or not) as Snopes may be, that does still leave me asking 'well what happened to the rest of the four pictures that "showed the animal from different perspectives" found on the owner's memory card, and the "bunch of pictures" the AP photographer subsequently came and took?'

With that in mind (and I'm presuming the other pictures aren't around on the Internet based on a quick Google Images search), I'm surprised you're so down with the Snopes judgement, as it's a bit like the Derren Brown thing you mentioned about making something more impressive (in this case, more proven) by removing as many of the layers of mystery shrouding it as possible.

Yeah, it was just a flippant remark. I have no idea how reliable or otherwise Snopes is.

Matt Morrison wrote: With that in mind (and I'm presuming the other pictures aren't around on the Internet based on a quick Google Images search), I'm surprised you're so down with the Snopes judgement, as it's a bit like the Derren Brown thing you mentioned about making something more impressive (in this case, more proven) by removing as many of the layers of mystery shrouding it as possible.

I hope you appreciate, young man, how very mentally tiring all this mastering of computer skills is for me!!!

Some of these pictures are well gross, and now I have to look at them every time I want to have a go at religion! Thanks!

There - that should give you a nice buffer!

Gavin Chipper wrote:Some of these pictures are well gross, and now I have to look at them every time I want to have a go at religion! Thanks!

Ah, I'll resist the temptation to post pictures of schistsomas reflexus then. It would make the deformed kitten look quite cute.

EDIT - if it helps, the kitten was called Cy (short for Cyclops), and suffered from holoprosencephaly. All part of the richness of creation, I guess.

I have just received this from a Chinese girl who asked what I think about religion:

"if no god all solar system and atomic structure will not intelligently designed and well planned so similar and good mathemcial accurate to bond to each other in plans and time
reason behinds seem not out of sudden
all seem have purpose
and under a big plan"

I think we have our definitive answer there, so can all stop wondering.



I would close the topic now - if that tool was still available to us!

Derek Hazell wrote:I have just received this from a Chinese girl who asked what I think about religion:

"if no god all solar system and atomic structure will not intelligently designed and well planned so similar and good mathemcial accurate to bond to each other in plans and time
reason behinds seem not out of sudden
all seem have purpose
and under a big plan"

There's my problem with religion. People who want to hear your opinion on religion actually want an opportunity to give you their own, and then hopefully change your mind for you.

Lesley Hines wrote:

Derek Hazell wrote:I have just received this from a Chinese girl who asked what I think about religion:

"if no god all solar system and atomic structure will not intelligently designed and well planned so similar and good mathemcial accurate to bond to each other in plans and time
reason behinds seem not out of sudden
all seem have purpose
and under a big plan"

There's my problem with religion. People who want to hear your opinion on religion actually want an opportunity to give you their own, and then hopefully change your mind for you.

If belief in religion didn't exist, millions of people wouldn't have been murdered. I suppose that means that religious people nowadays still agree with murder. In days of old I would have been burnt alive to cleanse my soul. How could I have seen the light and changed my ways if I was a little pile of ash?

The only religion that I am tolerant of is Budhism as they are, at least, peace loving.

Marc Meakin wrote:The only religion that I am tolerant of is Budhism as they are, at least, peace loving.

Ohrly

Thought someone would shoot me down in flames on that one.
What about Hare Krishna.
I do at least like their catchy song "Harry Krishna, Harry Palmer, Harry Redknapp, Harry, Harry."

I'm starting to know how Judy Finnegan felt that time when Richard wouldn't stop doing Ali G.

Derek Hazell wrote: the subject of praying for people when they are down came up, and how it would be hypocritcal to do so if you are not religious in the rest of your life.

From having a typical Irish Catholic upbringing, prayer is something that I engaged in throughout my childhood. Wouldn't be allowed to go to bed without saying my prayers first. I was brainwashed from an early age into believing. It was impossible for me to sustain that of course really into my teens i suppose, like most catholics my age (I'm 29 now). Now i only go to mass to see people get married or before they get buried and to hear my mam sing in the Christmas choir. For anyone else who might enjoy quietly cursing at the catholic church for ten minutes i recommend this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srNybbo0 ... re=related

But i still pray. I don't talk to God like i did when i was a kid as if there's someone listening, but think about the person/issue and devote some energy to it and send it in their direction, whenever i feel like it. I have been gradually swaying towards the belief that we are spiritually tied to each other. When you're in trouble or distress, those whom love you will be affected in some way. They'll feel it. When you send your good wishes to someone your thinking of, they'll feel it and it might help them. I believe this works both ways, so be careful not to overreact with negative thoughts about people you're close to.

I think that praying is good for you. Relaxing and meditating on certain issues is a positive thing to do. So i hope your friend isn't under the illusion that you need to be practicing to some ridiculous code among others in order to legitimately engage with your spirit. Pray away boss. Spread the love and don't forget to eat 5 portions of fruit and veg a day.

Andy Wilson wrote:But i still pray. I don't talk to God like i did when i was a kid as if there's someone listening, but think about the person/issue and devote some energy to it and send it in their direction, whenever i feel like it. I have been gradually swaying towards the belief that we are spiritually tied to each other. When you're in trouble or distress, those whom love you will be affected in some way. They'll feel it. When you send your good wishes to someone your thinking of, they'll feel it and it might help them. I believe this works both ways, so be careful not to overreact with negative thoughts about people you're close to.

At last. A mind not glued shut by pragmatism or corrupted by 'organised' religion.

Alec Rivers wrote:

Andy Wilson wrote:But i still pray. I don't talk to God like i did when i was a kid as if there's someone listening, but think about the person/issue and devote some energy to it and send it in their direction, whenever i feel like it. I have been gradually swaying towards the belief that we are spiritually tied to each other. When you're in trouble or distress, those whom love you will be affected in some way. They'll feel it. When you send your good wishes to someone your thinking of, they'll feel it and it might help them. I believe this works both ways, so be careful not to overreact with negative thoughts about people you're close to.

At last. A mind not glued shut by pragmatism or corrupted by 'organised' religion.

Easy to test, as well. Maybe you'll get that Nobel after all, Alec!

Charlie Reams wrote:

Alec Rivers wrote:

Andy Wilson wrote:But i still pray. I don't talk to God like i did when i was a kid as if there's someone listening, but think about the person/issue and devote some energy to it and send it in their direction, whenever i feel like it. I have been gradually swaying towards the belief that we are spiritually tied to each other. When you're in trouble or distress, those whom love you will be affected in some way. They'll feel it. When you send your good wishes to someone your thinking of, they'll feel it and it might help them. I believe this works both ways, so be careful not to overreact with negative thoughts about people you're close to.

At last. A mind not glued shut by pragmatism or corrupted by 'organised' religion.

Easy to test, as well. Maybe you'll get that Nobel after all, Alec!

A closed mind is not the same as an alternative hypothesis (something which, incidentally, I've never seen you put forward). As I've said before, there are observable phenomena not yet fully explained by science. If you have formulated a theory that goes some way to explaining one or more of these, then I would be very interested to hear about it. Until then, feel free to live in a world restricted to proven concepts only, but please don't mock me for having wider beliefs.

A few years ago a stone i wore on a string, bound by metal wires, given to me by someone with whom i share an amazing connection popped out onto the floor at about the same time this particular person was in severe distress, 3000 miles away. This really freaked me out, I felt like i already knew something was wrong before i found out what had happened the next day. Or maybe the wire just broke. Then, about a year ago i had a friend I don't see very often and hadn't known for very long at the time, but get on famously with, respond out loud to something i was thinking. I can't wait to spend more time with him when the chance presents itself and perhaps explore this more. Or maybe i did say it out loud and we just didn't notice.

I was recently delighted to read about Bill Hicks' mushroom experience, where he and a friend boarded the same alien spaceship and felt like they were connected to hundreds of people they didn't know. They were telling each other jokes with their mouths closed before this occurred. Or maybe they were just on drugs. Awesome.

Alec Rivers wrote: A closed mind is not the same as an alternative hypothesis (something which, incidentally, I've never seen you put forward). As I've said before, there are observable phenomena not yet fully explained by science. If you have formulated a theory that goes some way to explaining one or more of these, then I would be very interested to hear about it. Until then, feel free to live in a world restricted to proven concepts only, but please don't mock me for having wider beliefs.

I thought it was fairly obvious that the alternative hypothesis is that there is no "energy link" between you and other people, and any coincidences about breaking necklaces and so on are just that: coincidences. If these are observable phenomena then get yourself out there and run an experiment, it should be pretty easy. I don't have a closed mind, that's why I'm telling you to go experiment (c/f The Bible, which tells you not to test God, conveniently enough for him).

I would offer you a bet but if you're right then you're in for $1M anyway.

Andy Wilson wrote:Then, about a year ago i had a friend I don't see very often and hadn't known for very long at the time, but get on famously with, respond out loud to something i was thinking.

More details please!

Two more threads you may find interesting: Paranormal and Ghosts.

So are we saying that following a religion and belief in the paranormal are inexorably linked then?

Derek Hazell wrote:So are we saying that following a religion and belief in the paranormal are inexorably linked then?

As long as you believe in the religion you're following, I'd say yes.

Derek Hazell wrote:So are we saying that following a religion and belief in the paranormal are inexorably linked then?

Alec Rivers wrote:A mind not glued shut by pragmatism or corrupted by 'organised' religion.

Means:

• a) Open to the possibility of there being more than we currently know, and
  b) Not suckered into religious practices in blind faith.

Inexorably linked? I say the opposite.

Charlie Reams wrote:

Andy Wilson wrote:Then, about a year ago i had a friend I don't see very often and hadn't known for very long at the time, but get on famously with, respond out loud to something i was thinking.

More details please!

I'd just got my new computer and was joking about naming it. First thing that popped into my head was the not very obscure i know, 'Betsy'. But then he said, 'No, don't call it Betsy'. I'd asked for suggestions for a name and said no more. My jaw hit the floor instantly so i made absolutely sure no one had said the name aloud and the few of us present were all quite happy with the fact. Surely a little more than coincidence, given that he was responding to something i was definitely thinking, but hadn't said. Then he told everybody that i was secretly gay and my reputation with the girls hasn't been the same since.

Andy Wilson wrote: I'd just got my new computer and was joking about naming it. First thing that popped into my head was the not very obscure i know, 'Betsy'. But then he said, 'No, don't call it Betsy'. I'd asked for suggestions for a name and said no more. My jaw hit the floor instantly so i made absolutely sure no one had said the name aloud and the few of us present were all quite happy with the fact. Surely a little more than coincidence, given that he was responding to something i was definitely thinking, but hadn't said. Then he told everybody that i was secretly gay and my reputation with the girls hasn't been the same since.

Definitely odd. I quite often find myself involuntarily saying some keyword from what I'm thinking, usually under my breath, so my money would be on that. But I wasn't there so meh. If this phenomenon has any great power then presumably it will eventually occur while someone is recording (this is the philosophy behid You've Been Framed, and that's good enough for me).

Andy Wilson wrote:I'd just got my new computer and was joking about naming it. First thing that popped into my head was the not very obscure i know, 'Betsy'. But then he said, 'No, don't call it Betsy'.

If it had been 'Bertha' it would have been understandable!

Haha. I'd forgotten about lovely Bertha. I just thought Betsy is quite a common name for someone to give something off the cuff, hence why it popped into my head.

It was just something that happened and i haven't dwelt on it really. I think if i was aware i was being recorded it would lessen the chances of being relaxed enough for it to happen. I'd really like to explore it more and since reading about Hicks am anxious to try this approach! Oh yeah, actually, now that i think of it, there is another example, where myself and my ex girlfriend woke up and realised we'd just had pretty much the same dream as each other. This has happened to someone else i know. Anyone here?

What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

You're kidding Richard!

Why then do you err?

Andy Wilson wrote:Haha. I'd forgotten about lovely Bertha. I just thought Betsy is quite a common name for someone to give something off the cuff, hence why it popped into my head.

And why it popped into your friend's head. Seriously, for some reason loads of people seem to name cars and stuff "Betsy". I've no idea why (because it's a shit name) but they do. I seem to remember the other day on Top Gear Jeremy Clarkson doing so but someone else might remember better than me.

Yeah, but he didn't say, call it Betsy, he said, 'don't call it betsy'. A little more cool! Yeah, i think Betsy and the car thing definitely is a common one... c'mon Betsy, you can do it.

Gavin Chipper wrote:for some reason loads of people seem to name cars and stuff "Betsy". I've no idea why (because it's a shit name) but they do.

Does it originally come from the 1971 Harold Robbins novel about the automobile industry, The Betsy?

Gavin Chipper wrote:

Andy Wilson wrote:Haha. I'd forgotten about lovely Bertha. I just thought Betsy is quite a common name for someone to give something off the cuff, hence why it popped into my head.

And why it popped into your friend's head. Seriously, for some reason loads of people seem to name cars and stuff "Betsy". I've no idea why (because it's a shit name) but they do. I seem to remember the other day on Top Gear Jeremy Clarkson doing so but someone else might remember better than me.

Exactly, your thought processes can easily match someone else's. Whatever made you think of Betsy could have also made him think of Betsy. Stuff like this isn't that infrequent, I've had moments where I've been with someone and you both get the same (seemingly random) thought/distant memory at the same time. Sometimes you can identify the trigger, sometimes not. It's quite a leap to assume that some kind of psychic energy is the reason

Jon Corby wrote: It's quite a leap to assume that some kind of psychic energy is the reason

Not for nothing is this phenomenon called a leap of faith.

Rosemary Roberts wrote:

Jon Corby wrote: It's quite a leap to assume that some kind of psychic energy is the reason

Not for nothing is this phenomenon called a leap of faith.

Along with most religions.

What do you all make of this? A "Jewish" school tried to refuse admission to a boy because although they considered his father to be Jewish, they didn't consider his mother to be so, even though she is a practising "Jew". This is because she converted to Judaism rather than being born Jewish - she is New Jew*. And it's all about whether your mother is considered a Jew. But the school lost the case in the supreme court, on the grounds of racial discrimination.

To be honest, I think the whole thing is a joke. If being a Jew is about whether your mother is one, then it's not a religion or "faith" by most normal definitions (it is just an arbitrary label) so any "faith school" trying this on would rightfully lose on the basis of logic. But regardless of that, selecting by your parents' religion (which is basically what it boils down to) is surely not a reasonable criterion anyway (and no more reasonable than "race"). "Faith" schools should really be banned anyway, but it takes the piss even more that they get state funding and can set these arbitrary entry criteria.

But what I thought was amazing was how far the school took this and the guy defending the school on Newsnight. All this basically to deny someone entry to their school.

What would Sjewart Holden make of all this?

*Well, they do recognise some conversions apparently, but this one wasn't "proper".

Gavin Chipper wrote:What would Sjewart Holden make of all this?

Well, he probably wouldn't just change the title of the post, but create a whole new topic called "religion4religion" because this one is no longer fit for purpose.

Derek Hazell wrote:

Gavin Chipper wrote:What would Sjewart Holden make of all this?

Well, he probably wouldn't just change the title of the post, but create a whole new topic called "religion4religion" because this one is no longer fit for purpose.

You've just given me an idea. (See the Defending your property topic)

"I never use the word atheist of myself; it's scarcely worth having a name for. I mean I don't have a name for not believing in pixies." - Sir Jonathan Miller

Derek Hazell wrote:"I never use the word atheist of myself; it's scarcely worth having a name for. I mean I don't have a name for not believing in pixies." - Sir Jonathan Miller

Atheism is a religion like not-collecting-stamps is a hobby.

Well, atheists are just those who oppose God in their hearts. That's why they are invariably troubled and feel the need to speak loudly about their (lack of) beliefs. Everyone knows God exists, because that is how they live, but some manage to pretend to themselves that they don't believe in God, by bludgeoning their conscience. However it is really a superficial, trans-egotistical belief, because knowledge doesn't come from the will, it comes from the being, the soul. And it is impossible to escape the fact that they know that God exists. In the darkness of their heart, they have forsaken God, and God thus forsakes them. In their heart they secretly oppose God. This is why we need a name for atheists; because it is not simply 'the lack of a belief'.

Richard Brittain wrote:Well, atheists are just those who oppose God in their hearts. That's why they are invariably troubled and feel the need to speak loudly about their (lack of) beliefs. Everyone knows God exists, because that is how they live, but some manage to pretend to themselves that they don't believe in God, by bludgeoning their conscience. However it is really a superficial, trans-egotistical belief, because knowledge doesn't come from the will, it comes from the being, the soul. And it is impossible to escape the fact that they know that God exists. In the darkness of their heart, they have forsaken God, and God thus forsakes them. In their heart they secretly oppose God. This is why we need a name for atheists; because it is not simply 'the lack of a belief'.

Interesting argument given that you are the most troubled person who posts here. No offence, mate.

Richard Brittain wrote:Well, atheists are just those who oppose God in their hearts. That's why they are invariably troubled and feel the need to speak loudly about their (lack of) beliefs. Everyone knows God exists, because that is how they live, but some manage to pretend to themselves that they don't believe in God, by bludgeoning their conscience. However it is really a superficial, trans-egotistical belief, because knowledge doesn't come from the will, it comes from the being, the soul. And it is impossible to escape the fact that they know that God exists. In the darkness of their heart, they have forsaken God, and God thus forsakes them. In their heart they secretly oppose God. This is why we need a name for atheists; because it is not simply 'the lack of a belief'.

Belief is moot. Whether it's rebirth, some post-mortal punishment/reward destination or oblivion for me, I don't really care as I'm never going to know until I die, so I've got better things to worry about, like what to do while I'm still alive. Is this atheism?

Definitely sounds like agnosticism to me - you don't know whether or not there's a God or an afterlife.

To throw something else into the mix, a local newspaper headline I saw recently - "Murderer Swops Gangs for God". What do people think when they see stories like this? Could belief in God have kept this chap away from murder all along? Could God-free paths have taken him away from it? Will his contribution to the world as a Christian be positive?

Martin Smith wrote:Definitely sounds like agnosticism to me - you don't know whether or not there's a God or an afterlife.

Isn't agnosticism indecision rather than disinterest?

Martin Smith wrote:"Murderer Swops Gangs for God".

What do people think when they see stories like this?

I wonder how a reporter can suddenly forget how to spell 'swap'.

Anyone witness Stephen Baldwin's utterly stoopid parable on celeb BB last night about how he'd rather let his daughter die than for her to denounce Jesus? My zest for hating religious lunatics runs deeper than ever before.

Dinos Sfyris wrote:Anyone witness Stephen Baldwin's utterly stoopid parable on celeb BB last night about how he'd rather let his daughter die than for her to denounce Jesus? My zest for hating religious lunatics runs deeper than ever before.

Getting married in a church Dinos?

Jon Corby wrote:

Dinos Sfyris wrote:Anyone witness Stephen Baldwin's utterly stoopid parable on celeb BB last night about how he'd rather let his daughter die than for her to denounce Jesus? My zest for hating religious lunatics runs deeper than ever before.

Getting married in a church Dinos?

Yeah we are actually, and we appreciate the irony. I'm not having a go at religion, just people who defend it above sane logic like Stephen Baldwin who is a total nutjob. His argument was that God would surely condemn his daughter to hell if under duress (at gunpoint in this realistic scenario) she said that Jesus wasn't real, and so he'd rather she died and could then see her in heaven?

Worst thing was because he was on about religion no one dared tell him what a twat he is. Whereas if his daughter had been forced to say that KFC wasn't nice or die, everyone would be up in arms. And there's a lot more evidence for KFC being nice than Jesus being real.

Dinos Sfyris wrote:Yeah we are actually, and we appreciate the irony. I'm not having a go at religion, just people who defend it above sane logic like Stephen Baldwin who is a total nutjob. His argument was that God would surely condemn his daughter to hell if under duress (at gunpoint in this realistic scenario) she said that Jesus wasn't real, and so he'd rather she died and could then see her in heaven?

Worst thing was because he was on about religion no one dared tell him what a twat he is. Whereas if his daughter had been forced to say that KFC wasn't nice or die, everyone would be up in arms. And there's a lot more evidence for KFC being nice than Jesus being real.

Wouldn't God know that she didn't really mean it though, and was only forced to say it at gunpoint? What if instead of shooting her, he was torturing children until she renounced Jesus?

Haven't caught up with CBB yet, but will do tonight probably. Is anyone vehemently opposed to religion in the house? I'd have thought Lady Sovereign most likely? Is nobody discussing his lunacy in private? Maybe someone will stand up to him if they know they're not completely alone. From the previous night, it seemed that everyone was kissing his ass when he was going on about the bible and that.

Jon Corby wrote:

Dinos Sfyris wrote:Yeah we are actually, and we appreciate the irony. I'm not having a go at religion, just people who defend it above sane logic like Stephen Baldwin who is a total nutjob. His argument was that God would surely condemn his daughter to hell if under duress (at gunpoint in this realistic scenario) she said that Jesus wasn't real, and so he'd rather she died and could then see her in heaven?

Worst thing was because he was on about religion no one dared tell him what a twat he is. Whereas if his daughter had been forced to say that KFC wasn't nice or die, everyone would be up in arms. And there's a lot more evidence for KFC being nice than Jesus being real.

Wouldn't God know that she didn't really mean it though, and was only forced to say it at gunpoint?

Apparently not. In the gospel according to SB it doesn't really matter, even if you have your fingers crossed.

I only caught that glimpse of last night's programme so dunno what everyone's private reaction was.