c4countdown

Not really a bug, but have had MILEAGES and GUSTOS disallowed today when both should really be accepted.

Have accepted MILEAGES on the show and going from the dictionary, GUSTOS is perfectly valid.

I want compensating or i'll call Ken Bates.

D Eadie wrote: and going from the dictionary, GUSTOS is perfectly valid.

I'm not convinced GUSTOS should be OK. Give me the sense in which you think a plural should be accepted.

GUSTO > noun [mass noun]
No plurals for mass nouns
No need for debate, dems the rules

However....... it then lists
.[in sing.] archaic a relish or liking: he had a particular gusto for those sort of performances

so if you can have a gusto for one thing can't you have gustos for many different things? I have gustos for chocolate, marshmallows and cheese.

not elegant but not illegal, no more than all these 'nesses'

Happy with the [in sing] explanation I think. In which case ESCHATONS and COGITOS should be in too.

Logically, yes. But I'm sure any minute now somebody more knowledgeable is gonna chip in and say that they are special cases. When was the English language ever logical!
Also I think [in sing] may have to stay in the singular as opposed to a [count noun] which can be pluralised


PS don't think this lives in bugs thread any more, sorry Charlie.
Thats why I started the 'Words you woulda thought' thread.

GUSTOES surely?

Kai Laddiman wrote:GUSTOES surely?

I think it's fairly clear when a word ends in O - if the dictionary thinks it should be pluralised it will be listed, since O is not deemed to be "regular".

Gavin Chipper wrote:I think it's fairly clear when a word ends in O - if the dictionary thinks it should be pluralised it will be listed, since O is not deemed to be "regular".

It would be nice to think so, but I don't think the logic will stand up given that 1) plenty of words which have disputable inflections do not have them listed 2) lots of plurals are listed which shouldn't exist by its own rules.

What about GUNMETALS in the sense of it being a colour?

I had OPALINES disallowed tho it's been given on the show but I can see why the plural may be questionable.

Kirk Bevins wrote:

D Eadie wrote: and going from the dictionary, GUSTOS is perfectly valid.

I'm not convinced GUSTOS should be OK. Give me the sense in which you think a plural should be accepted.

In the sense that your opponent spots it in the next C of C and you don't......?

Kirk Bevins wrote:Happy with the [in sing] explanation I think. In which case ESCHATONS and COGITOS should be in too.

COGITO isn't listed as a mass noun so HAS to be allowed, dictionary mistake or not, likewise ESCHATONS. Certainly would be allowed on the TV show at least.

D Eadie wrote:

Kirk Bevins wrote:Happy with the [in sing] explanation I think. In which case ESCHATONS and COGITOS should be in too.

COGITO isn't listed as a mass noun so HAS to be allowed, dictionary mistake or not, likewise ESCHATONS. Certainly would be allowed on the TV show at least.

Apterous has a TV show?

Dinos Sfyris wrote:

D Eadie wrote:

Kirk Bevins wrote:Happy with the [in sing] explanation I think. In which case ESCHATONS and COGITOS should be in too.

COGITO isn't listed as a mass noun so HAS to be allowed, dictionary mistake or not, likewise ESCHATONS. Certainly would be allowed on the TV show at least.

Apterous has a TV show?

There's a really similar game on Channel 4 about 3:25pm Mon to Fri. I think Charlie should demand royalties!

Julie T wrote:There's a really similar game on Channel 4 about 3:25pm Mon to Fri. I think Charlie should demand royalties!

Magic! Commission at least (I know someone on here had at least a cheque for a grand, and those dictionaries'd go for at least a tenner on Ebay... I'm sure you could track them down if you tried )

On the subject of plurals, maybe you'd know about this Lesley, what's up with this?
Hexanes & Heptanes, allowed. Methanes, ethanes, etc, not allowed.
Ethanols, and Propanols allowed, Methanols, Butanols, Heptanols and all of those aren't allowed.

On that subject, having a certain word disallowed could give you propane nightmares...

Shaun Hegarty wrote:On the subject of plurals, maybe you'd know about this Lesley, what's up with this?
Hexanes & Heptanes, allowed. Methanes, ethanes, etc, not allowed.
Ethanols, and Propanols allowed, Methanols, Butanols, Heptanols and all of those aren't allowed.

As far as I know, you can have hexanes, heptanes, etc because there is more than one type of them. You can have different hexanes. However, there is only one type of methane or ethane.

I'm a bit confused about the -ols, because it should be the same scenario. I thought there was only one kind of methanol or ethanol, but multiple propanols and upwards.

Shaun Hegarty wrote:On the subject of plurals, maybe you'd know about this Lesley, what's up with this?
Hexanes & Heptanes, allowed. Methanes, ethanes, etc, not allowed.
Ethanols, and Propanols allowed, Methanols, Butanols, Heptanols and all of those aren't allowed.

Interesting! But dunno.

At first I thought it was likely to be their states of matter as methane/ethane/propane/butane are all gases, but so's pentane and that's a mass noun too. Hexane and heptane are just nouns, but octane, nonane and decane are mass nouns again. I wondered if it might be isomerisation (as chemical nomenclature is determined by things like the number of carbons in the structure and there are still many archaic terms in in use even those these have been superseded) but while methane, ethane and propane all have no isomers to speak of, butane onwards certainly does. I would say (and it obviously counts for nothing as it's what the dictionary says that matters) that methane, ethane and probably propane could reasonably be called mass nouns, but that butane onwards really ought to be a noun as there are different types.

Curiously I checked alkane (as these all are) and that's just a noun, and specifically lists methane and ethane as examples.

Similarly, methanol and ethanol could reasonably be called mass nouns as they don't do anything much, but there is certainly propan-1-ol and propan-2-ol, same with butanol, pentan-1, 2, or 3-ol (even and!!), so these really ought to be nouns. IMVHO. There are grades of ethanol, though, like absolute ethanol used for commercial purposes as opposed to the stuff that we (I, anyway ), drink, so maybe they should all just be nouns.

I might write to the nice people and point out these irregularities and see what they say. I do like to make myself popular like that

Lesley Hines wrote:I might write to the nice people and point out these irregularities and see what they say. I do like to make myself popular like that

They might well listen to you, I've had some success in the past.

Thanks for the response Lesley, I was thinking along the lines of isomers and such, but it just didn't seem to fit. Like you said about about the different types of Ethanols, industrial and commercial, perhaps that 's what happens with Heptanes too, one for Octane number comparison, and ones for other things. Perhaps it could be said that cyclohexane is one of several hexanes?

There are so many hydrocarbons missing too. The aldehydes only go as far as ethanal. And alkenes only as far as propene. It would open up a few extra useful words.

You should write Lesley, if anything happens, perhaps it could be brought up when you're on the show

The reason I was asking was because I got heptane and pentane and DC had heptanes in a round today, So I wondered about pentanes, and I'm pretty sure I've declared butanols at some point.

Shaun Hegarty wrote:There are so many hydrocarbons missing too. The aldehydes only go as far as ethanal. And alkenes only as far as propene. It would open up a few extra useful words.

Haha but there are loads of good words missing (most notably octochamp!!) from the dictionary. They've got pretty strict inclusion criteria that works out stuff like how often it's used and in what context, in what type of breadth of material and timespan, effect on language and its generative properties etc. Susie Dent's written some interesting stuff about it in her books. However, in the introduction of the ODE they do acknowledge that it's the official dictionary for some word games including Countdown, so I think it would be useful to standardise them. Maybe to put all your standard groups (alkanes, alkenes, aldehydes, esters, ketones etc.) up to 10. And to decide what's a mass noun and what isn't (no isomers=mass, e.g.).

The worst they can do is ignore me Heh - and they won't be the first!

Charlie Reams wrote:They might well listen to you, I've had some success in the past.

Cheers Charlie that makes me more confident!

Lesley Hines wrote:

Shaun Hegarty wrote:On the subject of plurals, maybe you'd know about this Lesley, what's up with this?
Hexanes & Heptanes, allowed. Methanes, ethanes, etc, not allowed.
Ethanols, and Propanols allowed, Methanols, Butanols, Heptanols and all of those aren't allowed.

Interesting! But dunno.

I wondered if it might be isomerisation (as chemical nomenclature is determined by things like the number of carbons in the structure and there are still many archaic terms in in use even those these have been superseded) but while methane, ethane and propane all have no isomers to speak of, butane onwards certainly does.

The unsaturated ones are a similar case, with ethenes and ethynes being valid in spite of having no isomers (propenes is invalid; I've not found any others listed.)

Rightio, after a bit of research into all of that I can't see any chemical reason for the variation, but I have revised some really interesting stuff I know my pi from my sigma overlaps now, I can tell you!

Generally - alkane (N) - Mass - exception Hexane and Heptane - only goes to decane
Alkene (N) - nouns - only goes to propene
Alkyne (N) - nouns only ethyne listed anyway
Alcohol (MN) - Mass except for ethanol, only goes to Butanol
Ketone (N) only lists propanone (N)
Ester (N) - all nouns, goes to pentanoate and methanoate's not listed
Radicals - (N) all present to decyl, all nouns.

I've only researched the obvious stuff but hopefully they'll sort it all out beautifully for the next edition
HTH

Edit - and while I'm at it I'm going to have flippin' gauze changed to be included as a count noun! I used them on tripods for years - the drawer was labelled gauzes and everything!

Lesley I think you're really cool

I haven't got an up-to-date dictionary but certainly in the past the OUP were hopeless at chemistry. In the NODE

Elements appear to be all mass nouns, surely correctly, but SULFUR is only shown as an American spelling, whereas it is also the internationally-agreed technical spelling. For me, SULFUR is OK, but, say, SULFUROUS is not.

Compounds are all over the place. FLUORIDE has two common meanings. The stuff in toothpaste, which is a mass noun, and a compound of fluorine with another element, which is a count noun. Both are mass nouns in the NODE.

The selection the other day gave both PENTANES and HEPTANES. Both NODE definitions refer to them having isomers. One is a mass noun, one is a count noun. For me, both are mass nouns, in the same way as the main meaning of GRANITE or CHEESE. The issue for Countdown would then be whether they are countable mass nouns. For me they wouldn't be. Common usage would refer to different cheeses, but to different isomers of heptane rather than different heptanes. Mind you, I wouldn't go for different granites either. What's important is consistency and predictability.

Our resident expert is Kevin Thurlow, of course.

David Williams wrote:Our resident expert is Kevin Thurlow, of course.

Dinos Sfyris wrote:Lesley I think you're really cool

Magic thanks You can beat me any time you like, you charmer

David Williams wrote: The selection the other day gave both PENTANES and HEPTANES. Both NODE definitions refer to them having isomers. One is a mass noun, one is a count noun. For me, both are mass nouns, in the same way as the main meaning of GRANITE or CHEESE. The issue for Countdown would then be whether they are countable mass nouns. For me they wouldn't be. Common usage would refer to different cheeses, but to different isomers of heptane rather than different heptanes. Mind you, I wouldn't go for different granites either. What's important is consistency and predictability.

Our resident expert is Kevin Thurlow, of course.

I think so - I'm not bothered which they are - there are arguments for both. I'd argue that hydrogen bonds with two oxygens, for example. (Mind you, I can argue in an empty room - proper bird ) I'm just going to point out the inconsistencies and leave it to the nice lexicographers. It does say at the start that mass nouns are subject to adjudication, and I'm in no position to adjudicate.

Lesley Hines wrote:I'd argue that hydrogen bonds with two oxygens, for example.

Shows how out of date I am. It was the other way round when I were a lad.

You asshulme she's talking about a single molecule of H20 then and not the intermolecular hydrogen bonding to other oxygen(s)?

David Williams wrote:

Lesley Hines wrote:I'd argue that hydrogen bonds with two oxygens, for example.

Shows how out of date I am. It was the other way round when I were a lad.

That's really funny. You're quite right, things haven't changed that much!! Haha oh dear, it'd been a long day. Told you I could argue in an empty room!

Edit: I'd argue that oxygen bonds with two hydrogens, for example

Sorry Will read before I hit submit in future

Dinos Sfyris wrote:You asshulme she's talking about a single molecule of H20 then and not the intermolecular hydrogen bonding to other oxygen(s)?

There is that but basically I was just wrong. Again