Drunks and a murderer on the footplate

[George Jenkins]

Writing about the 1955 Enginemen's strike, I forgot to mention a particualy obnoxious and ignorant Driver who was generally dispised by the rest of the men. We believe he was appointed as Driver in the war years when the examination was greatly relaxed because of Staff shortage.

I mentioned Joe in the 1955 strike, and he was the one ordered to work by his Wife. Before that, in 1952, Joe and his Fireman, John Alcott, were going to work the 22.00 coal train from North End sidings to Hither green, and they had time to visit the local pub. When they got back to the Engine, Joe was unable to climb up to the footplate for the simple reason that he had collapsed on the ground, blind drunk.

The Fireman had to get him over his shoulder and carry him up, where he laid him on the fireman's side long seat. John Alcott then drove and fired the engine on his own all the way to Hither Green. Later in 1955, Joe was my Fireman's Driver in the strike, and they wanted to work all day but was ordered home after working 12 hours.

Back to 1952, John Alcott was in the Grenadier Guards serving in Germany, He deserted and in his wanderings killed a caretaker of a Hostel. He was sentenced to death, but because of a technicality, (his next of kin, his Mother, hadn't been informed of his trial) he was pardoned and discharged from the army.

Back in England he married and became a Fireman at Hither Green Loco shed. He and his Wife were going to holiday in France, and he told her that he was going to the Loco shed to get his wages. But he didn't, he went to Aldershot and stayed several days at lodging houses.

He befriended a Booking Clerk at Ashvale station, and when the night Porter booked on one evening, He noticed that the booking office light was still on. He found the Booking clerk dead with blood everywhere. "Dixie" Dean had been stabbed twenty times. £128 pounds was missing.

The Police searched the lodging houses and found one with a coat hanging up, with blood-soaked ten-pound notes in the pockets. When Alcott came in, he showed them where he had hidden the knife up the chimney. He was charged with murder and hanged in 1953.

[Derek Hazell]

Chimneys may smoke more than cigarettes, but you can't fit a bloody knife up a cigarette!

[Dinos Sfyris]

It was George in the engine room with the candle stick.

[George Jenkins]

Chimneys may smoke more than cigarettes, but you can't fit a bloody knife up a cigarette!

Alcott was unlucky that he killed people at the wrong time. If he had waited, he would have been sentenced to life in Gaol. he would have watched television in his comfortable cell. He would have access to games like snooker etc, to ensure that he didn't get bored with prison life. He would be entitled to private visits by his girl friends (or boy friends) as with child killer Mr Huntley. There would be an army of do-gooders making sure his human rights were not infringed, and a very intelligent shrink will declare that he is no longer a threat to society, and released in ten years. Silly boy!

[Derek Hazell]

Alcott was unlucky that he killed people at the wrong time. If he had waited, he would have been sentenced to life in Gaol. he would have watched television in his comfortable cell. He would have access to games like snooker etc, to ensure that he didn't get bored with prison life. He would be entitled to private visits by his girl friends (or boy friends) as with child killer Mr Huntley. There would be an army of do-gooders making sure his human rights were not infringed, and a very intelligent shrink will declare that he is no longer a threat to society, and released in ten years. Silly boy!

But, presumably you're talking about now, and as most of your former workmates are dead now, he probably wouldn't have been alive to do it now anyway!

It is always pleasurable to see that spelling of "gaol" used though.

[George Jenkins]

Alcott was unlucky that he killed people at the wrong time. If he had waited, he would have been sentenced to life in Gaol. he would have watched television in his comfortable cell. He would have access to games like snooker etc, to ensure that he didn't get bored with prison life. He would be entitled to private visits by his girl friends (or boy friends) as with child killer Mr Huntley. There would be an army of do-gooders making sure his human rights were not infringed, and a very intelligent shrink will declare that he is no longer a threat to society, and released in ten years. Silly boy!

But, presumably you're talking about now, and as most of your former workmates are dead now, he probably wouldn't have been alive to do it now anyway!

It is always pleasurable to see that spelling of "gaol" used though.

The death penalty was abolished soon after the last hanging, Ruth Ellis, for shooting her Boyfriend. I don't know when the practice of early release for killers came into force, but I violently disagree with the practice. In the old days, A murder was front page news, now you might read a tiny paragraph in the back pages, because there are so many of them. the deterrent has disapeared because of the emergence of human rights

Did you read about the young mother with two young children in the house? she confronted a burglar and stabbed him in the arm. She got a longer prison sentence than the burglar. Hurrah for human rights.

[Jon O'Neill]

The death penalty was abolished soon after the last hanging, Ruth Ellis, for shooting her Boyfriend. I don't know when the practice of early release for killers came into force, but I violently disagree with the practice. In the old days, A murder was front page news, now you might read a tiny paragraph in the back pages, because there are so many of them. the deterrent has disapeared because of the emergence of human rights

Did you read about the young mother with two young children in the house? she confronted a burglar and stabbed him in the arm. She got a longer prison sentence than the burglar. Hurrah for human rights.

I suggest you put down your Daily Mail.

[Phil Reynolds]

In the old days, A murder was front page news, now you might read a tiny paragraph in the back pages, because there are so many of them. the deterrent has disapeared because of the emergence of human rights

In the papers I read, murders are front page news. If they aren't in yours, then read a better paper. Don't blame "human rights" for the poor quality of your reading material. The homicide rate in the UK was at its lowest in the 1960s, after the abolition of the death penalty, so the so-called "deterrent" obviously didn't work.

Any system of criminal justice is necessarily based on an implicit moral code, otherwise those implementing that justice cannot claim to be any better than those they judge. If a society decides that murder is morally wrong, then in killing the perpetrator we forfeit any claim to moral superiority over the murderer. Depriving people of their liberty instead is difficult and costly, but doing what's right rarely means doing what's easy or cheap.

[George Jenkins]

The death penalty was abolished soon after the last hanging, Ruth Ellis, for shooting her Boyfriend. I don't know when the practice of early release for killers came into force, but I violently disagree with the practice. In the old days, A murder was front page news, now you might read a tiny paragraph in the back pages, because there are so many of them. the deterrent has disapeared because of the emergence of human rights

Did you read about the young mother with two young children in the house? she confronted a burglar and stabbed him in the arm. She got a longer prison sentence than the burglar. Hurrah for human rights.

I suggest you put down your Daily Mail.

Daily Mail Jon? I'm insulted. In any case, I've been on this earth long enough to form my own opinions. I don't need news papers.

[George Jenkins]

In the old days, A murder was front page news, now you might read a tiny paragraph in the back pages, because there are so many of them. the deterrent has disappeared because of the emergence of human rights

In the papers I read, murders are front page news. If they aren't in yours, then read a better paper. Don't blame "human rights" for the poor quality of your reading material. The homicide rate in the UK was at its lowest in the 1960s, after the abolition of the death penalty, so the so-called "deterrent" obviously didn't work.

Any system of criminal justice is necessarily based on an implicit moral code, otherwise those implementing that justice cannot claim to be any better than those they judge. If a society decides that murder is morally wrong, then in killing the perpetrator we forfeit any claim to moral superiority over the murderer. Depriving people of their liberty instead is difficult and costly, but doing what's right rarely means doing what's easy or cheap.

I must remind you that I did not advocate for the return of the death penalty. I merely described the situation as it is today. Human rights are for civilised people, not for child killers and murderers who kill for a few pounds. As far as I'm concerned, they forfeit those rights. As for the cost of keeping killers in gaol for life. what sort of planet are you on. The Government can find billions to help their friends, the Bankers. They found billions to bomb civilians in Iraq, but we can't find a few Quid to keep the killers of Women and children out of our sight? That includes of course, members of gangs who like to stick knives in people.

I would not lose my moral superiority if I had the power to keep killers in gaol for life. Instead, I would know that inocent people will be safe from them. And don't tell me that they should be released because they are reformed. The people they kill can't come back, so why should they. That to me, is moral justice, because I listen to the people who have lost family because of a murderer. They all say the same, he will be out in ten years, but we have lost our child forever.

Please don't tell me that all I've got on my mind is revenge. I live in the real World, not the World of moral codes which we have to live by but the rapist or murderer doesn't.

News papers? They are useful for wrapping the left overs from the table, including the ones you read.

[Charlie Reams]

In the old days, A murder was front page news, now you might read a tiny paragraph in the back pages, because there are so many of them. the deterrent has disappeared because of the emergence of human rights

In the papers I read, murders are front page news. If they aren't in yours, then read a better paper. Don't blame "human rights" for the poor quality of your reading material. The homicide rate in the UK was at its lowest in the 1960s, after the abolition of the death penalty, so the so-called "deterrent" obviously didn't work.

Any system of criminal justice is necessarily based on an implicit moral code, otherwise those implementing that justice cannot claim to be any better than those they judge. If a society decides that murder is morally wrong, then in killing the perpetrator we forfeit any claim to moral superiority over the murderer. Depriving people of their liberty instead is difficult and costly, but doing what's right rarely means doing what's easy or cheap.

I must remind you that I did not advocate for the return of the death penalty. I merely described the situation as it is today. Human rights are for civilised people, not for child killers and murderers who kill for a few pounds. As far as I'm concerned, they forfeit those rights. As for the cost of keeping killers in gaol for life. what sort of planet are you on. The Government can find billions to help their friends, the Bankers. They found billions to bomb civilians in Iraq, but we can't find a few Quid to keep the killers of Women and children out of our sight? That includes of course, members of gangs who like to stick knives in people.

I would not lose my moral superiority if I had the power to keep killers in gaol for life. Instead, I would know that inocent people will be safe from them. And don't tell me that they should be released because they are reformed. The people they kill can't come back, so why should they. That to me, is moral justice, because I listen to the people who have lost family because of a murderer. They all say the same, he will be out in ten years, but we have lost our child forever.

Please don't tell me that all I've got on my mind is revenge. I live in the real World, not the World of moral codes which we have to live by but the rapist or murderer doesn't.

Epic understanding fail.

[George Jenkins]

I have an old friend who was a Magistrate. I asked him why he resigned from the bench. He told me that he got sick of the system which gave a criminal and his "rehabilitation" as being of more importance than justice for the victim.

I have more respect for his experience than I have for young men with lofty Ideals, Probably still attending school, and seemingly without knowledge of real life as it is.

[Charlie Reams]

I have an old friend who was a Magistrate. I asked him why he resigned from the bench. He told me that he got sick of the system which gave a criminal and his "rehabilitation" as being of more importance than justice for the victim.

I have more respect for his experience than I have for young men with lofty Ideals, Probably still attending school, and seemingly without knowledge of real life as it is.

I have no idea what you're rabbiting on about, but neither Phil nor I have attended school for quite a while...

[George Jenkins]

I have an old friend who was a Magistrate. I asked him why he resigned from the bench. He told me that he got sick of the system which gave a criminal and his "rehabilitation" as being of more importance than justice for the victim.

I have more respect for his experience than I have for young men with lofty Ideals, Probably still attending school, and seemingly without knowledge of real life as it is.

I have no idea what you're rabbiting on about, but neither Phil nor I have attended school for quite a while...

I gained the impression the some of you lads were still at school. if some of you are employed in a profession of some kind, my humble apologies are due.

[Jon Corby]

I have an old friend who was a Magistrate. I asked him why he resigned from the bench. He told me that he got sick of the system which gave a criminal and his "rehabilitation" as being of more importance than justice for the victim.

I have more respect for his experience than I have for young men with lofty Ideals, Probably still attending school, and seemingly without knowledge of real life as it is.

I have no idea what you're rabbiting on about, but neither Phil nor I have attended school for quite a while...

Truancy is nothing to be proud of, young man.