Co-event dictionary

[Fiona T]

One of the contestants on today's final declared a word that isn't on apterous but is in ODP.

Most events use the 'apterous dictionary' which has the plus side of being definitive and available to the majority of players. But it does mean some words that should be allowed won't be, and vice versa. Most people don't have access to ODP.

Other tools (Jack's app if he chose to do so, the hosting application I've put together) could update the word list based on the ticketed updates on apterous, although these amendments aren't necessarily 'accepted' until they're live on apto. There's a long ticket with updates https://www.apterous.org/ticket_view.php?ticket=6703 as well as lots of smaller tickets.

Just curious as to people's views - most of us use and primarily train on apto, so perhaps it's easiest just to stick with "The dictionary we use is apterous" and accept there will be errors and omissions.

[Gavin Chipper]

If the dictionary is declared to be Apterous, then it's not really an error or omission, just that CO-events/Apterous are not Countdown, even if they try to emulate it. But it is arguably unsatisfactory.

[Gavin Chipper]

What was the word? (Or put it in the spoilers thread.)

[JackHurst]

Spoilers thx

[JackHurst]

Maintaining an accurate dictionary is a time consuming and largely thankless task. Its requires a lot of time and energy from somebody with experience and a high level of expertise. There are cases where you are behind ODO (that's always the case tbf).

Because Charlie has always had ultimate responsibility for dictionary changes, decisions have been reliable and consistent. If a community effort can be put together that decouples the dictionary admin from Apterous and still offers high quality and reliable dictionary updates, then we absolutely should use this for events. We're not here to play "apterous", we're here to play "Countdown". I would gladly facilitate using the updated dictionary on my app, provided I am confident that the updates are of the quality needed.


As for the example on the show (i've not seen it), it's either a gamble by the player that got incredible lucky, or it's a just reward for diligently studying the dictionary updates and getting the chanc e to use one of them on the show. The latter is nothing new btw. There have always been players who study "ahead" of the apto dictionary for appearances on the show to get an edge.


Also, please keep spoilers to the spoilers threads. Not everybody is able to watch episodes right away

[Fiona T]

Also, please keep spoilers to the spoilers threads. Not everybody is able to watch episodes right away

Yep the word is in the spoilers thread - my vagueness in the opening post was deliberate!

[Gavin Chipper]

Yeah, it wasn't that big a spoiler.

[JackHurst]

Yep the word is in the spoilers thread - my vagueness in the opening post was deliberate!

Still. Its spoiled the bit of excitement I would have had watching along and seeing a new word being allowed. Just remember, some people want no information at all about recent episodes

[Fiona T]

Yep the word is in the spoilers thread - my vagueness in the opening post was deliberate!

Still. Its spoiled the bit of excitement I would have had watching along and seeing a new word being allowed. Just remember, some people want no information at all about recent episodes

Apologies Jack, I'll be more careful in future.

Perhaps you can get some excitement from "can I guess the new word before it's declared?" on this occasion instead? Good luck!

[Fiona T]

Back to the intended topic - I guess that consistency across co-events is definitely a very desirable thing, and given the majority of attendees do not have access to premium, the ability to check words quickly and easily at a table really does depend on the availability of a consistent checking tool, which is currently apto/Jack's app. If those were to diverge you'd potentially have different words being allowed at different tables. Bristol could theoretically use whichever dictionary it wanted, but for consistency should use the same word list. I remember Callum having redstones disallowed as it wasn't in apto even though all present agreed that it should be valid! Apto dictionary is probably the only real answer for co-events for now anyway.

I was considering a non-apto dependent replacement for TCC's lookup tool, but have done bugger all about it. I guess if/when we get something like that that was available to all attendees, we can rethink then.

[JackHurst]

I was just alerted to this thread on Apterous:
https://www.apterous.org/ticket_view.php?ticket=6867

I also agree with the sentiment that Co-Events should be played with the most up to date dictionaries available, however the practicalities of asking for this on apterous at 7 days notice are very questionable.

1) 7 days isn't much time for a feature request on the side project of somebody who has a full time job.
2) Also, you've requested it, but you don't actually know if it will happen or not. Were it not for Ben's comment underneath, this now throws into uncertainty which dictionary is in use for the event at 7 days notice. Outrageous!!!
3) For players who like to have time to absorb or study the new words, you are giving them no time.


I'm also feeling a bit blindsided by this request. Having gone to a lot of effort to make a co-event word checker available for free on all Android phones, you are suggesting something which makes that work obsolete.

(posted here because non-subscribers can't comment on apto!)

[Adam S Latchford]

Dictionary at the moment on apterous is just not fit for purpose. It's been over a year. So many new words are in.

Sure it's short notice but some of these words have been in the dictionary for a year now and should be allowed in word games lists.

I get you might feel burdened with designing your app to update things but burden shouldn't be on you.

I just don't really know the best option with this - other than the apterous dictionary finally gets upgraded. I'm sure most people would have preferred that over a server update that happened - dictionary is paramount to this game.

I'll make sure to make decision on rugby dictionary of whatever we use at least a month before the event for your point 3 though.

[Fiona T]

OK, points taken. It certainly wasn't my intention to upset anyone with this request.

I very much doubt Charlie will action it in the next week anyway!

But typically apterous dictionary updates happen with just a few days' notice, which could occur at any time in the co-event calendar, so the problems you describe aren't new.

[Graeme Cole]

I was just alerted to this thread on Apterous:
https://www.apterous.org/ticket_view.php?ticket=6867

I also agree with the sentiment that Co-Events should be played with the most up to date dictionaries available, however the practicalities of asking for this on apterous at 7 days notice are very questionable.

1) 7 days isn't much time for a feature request on the side project of somebody who has a full time job.
2) Also, you've requested it, but you don't actually know if it will happen or not. Were it not for Ben's comment underneath, this now throws into uncertainty which dictionary is in use for the event at 7 days notice. Outrageous!!!
3) For players who like to have time to absorb or study the new words, you are giving them no time.

(1) and (2) are very good points, but I don't think (3) is very important at all. There are co-events all year round, so no matter when you choose to update the dictionary, it's always going to be close to some event or other. Also, we accept that when someone goes on Countdown, ODO might have been updated the previous day - that's just the rub of the green.

I'm also feeling a bit blindsided by this request. Having gone to a lot of effort to make a co-event word checker available for free on all Android phones, you are suggesting something which makes that work obsolete.

Could you clarify what you mean here? I can see two interpretations:

1. Your app's dictionary is based on the Apterous dictionary, and if Apterous were updated this week you wouldn't have time to update the app to match.
2. Your app's dictionary is up to date, but you don't want the Apterous dictionary to be up to date because then people could check words with that instead of your app.

At first I (and others?) took the second interpretation, but the first seems more reasonable.

[JackHurst]

1. Your app's dictionary is based on the Apterous dictionary, and if Apterous were updated this week you wouldn't have time to update the app to match.
2. Your app's dictionary is up to date, but you don't want the Apterous dictionary to be up to date because then people could check words with that instead of your app.

At first I (and others?) took the second interpretation, but the first seems more reasonable.

Right now it's based on apterous. So if apterous were to have an update, and event hosts say that this is the standard, then my apps word checker is incomplete. Its compounded by the fact that the dictionary in my app is locally hard coded in the client, so you need to download an app update to get it. Native apps don't just change instantly for all users like web apps do.


It appears as though Charlie no longer has the time/motivation to provide Apterous updates with the frequency that people desire. The problem (which I am part of) is that everybody is relying on Apterous for the word list, without offering any alternative solution. There are plenty of people in this community with the enthusiasm and capability to take actions without being 100% dependent on Charlie. Whilst I can't guarantee that Apterous would adopt a community moderated dictionary if we made one, you can be sure that I would commit to adding it to my app and that we would use it for events. We could even schedule when updates happen so that they are not just happening "at any time" (which for some reason people think is acceptable?!)

[Gavin Chipper]

I also don't see a problem with the request. As said, the change might have happened anyway before COLIN, regardless of the request. Any time there's an update, there's a sudden change in the words available with all the consequences of that.

I'm not sure point 2 is anything against what Fiona has done. And Ben's comment on Apterous is quite clear to me - new words will be allowed because if there's no update Oxford Online will be used. All sorted.

Jack's just posted it seems but consider this as a post without having read it.

[Fiona T]

Well I've collated all the outstanding dictionary tickets into a spreadsheet and am happy to share it. There are a handful of edge cases and I guess this is where difficulties occur.

FWIW for Reading (if we don't get a full update before then) my thought is to add the new words but flag them on the word display so people are aware they're not on apto. Not sure about removals but will ensure I make any decision well before. But hopefully we'll have dictionaries back to at least their usual level of synchronicity before April.

Although maybe it's something for the FOCAL committee to discuss as ideally we'd have consistency across events.

[JackHurst]

I also don't see a problem with the request.

If you ran a project in your spare time, wouldn't you be annoyed if a user raised a specific feature request needed for an event at a weeks' notice on a Friday night? When they could have raised it at any point up to 9 weeks ago.


We've just coming to the end of the only point in the focal calendar where we get a big old 2 month gap between events. If this is something you wanted to happen, why not request it after Focal finals so there's some time? It's the timing which I find absolutely ridiculous.

[JackHurst]

Well I've collated all the outstanding dictionary tickets into a spreadsheet and am happy to share it. There are a handful of edge cases and I guess this is where difficulties occur.

FWIW for Reading (if we don't get a full update before then) my thought is to add the new words but flag them on the word display so people are aware they're not on apto. Not sure about removals but will ensure I make any decision well before. But hopefully we'll have dictionaries back to at least their usual level of synchronicity before April.

Although maybe it's something for the FOCAL committee to discuss as ideally we'd have consistency across events.

I'd like to take a look please!

[Adam S Latchford]

We've just coming to the end of the only point in the focal calendar where we get a big old 2 month gap between events. If this is something you wanted to happen, why not request it after Focal finals so there's some time? It's the timing which I find absolutely ridiculous.

There's just been a big dic update that's triggered a lot of chat about dictionary update and in turn fiona's post.

[Gavin Chipper]

I also don't see a problem with the request.

If you ran a project in your spare time, wouldn't you be annoyed if a user raised a specific feature request needed for an event at a weeks' notice on a Friday night? When they could have raised it at any point up to 9 weeks ago.


We've just coming to the end of the only point in the focal calendar where we get a big old 2 month gap between events. If this is something you wanted to happen, why not request it after Focal finals so there's some time? It's the timing which I find absolutely ridiculous.

Well if it was Charlie complaining from that point of view, I wouldn't have argued, but I don't really see that much of a big deal otherwise.

There's also no compulsion for a CO-event to use Apterous so the raw online dictionary could be sprung on us at any event without warning.

[Fiona T]

We've just coming to the end of the only point in the focal calendar where we get a big old 2 month gap between events. If this is something you wanted to happen, why not request it after Focal finals so there's some time? It's the timing which I find absolutely ridiculous.

There's just been a big dic update that's triggered a lot of chat about dictionary update and in turn fiona's post.

Yep if you look at the timestamp on the ticket, my judgement probably wasn't the best. I guess a few of us were chatting about dictionary updates (and lack thereof) and my frustration spilled over. I'd be extremely surprised if Charlie actioned it based on my request!

I'd like to take a look please!

Shared version here (almost all of these (AE onwards) are from Ray's great work with the other odd tickets with a few words here and there added too)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

[JackHurst]

Shared version here (almost all of these (AE onwards) are from Ray's great work with the other odd tickets with a few words here and there added too)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Thanks for Sharing this! I could make a commitment to having a word checker ready for Co:Liv if Focal and Andy are clear that they would use it. I don't have the available time right now to deliver anything in time for Co:Lin.

[JackHurst]

I'd like to point out some important differences between TV Countdown and Co-Event Countdown that people should take into consideration when thinking about how words are adjudicated.

TV Countdown:
- Maximum 100 word checks necessary per day of recording in the studio
- A highly qualified lexicographer is available to make every decision
- The studio has guaranteed internet access, and ODO access.
- There is no requirement to programatically calculate the best possible word, the general viewer wants to know what a good word was, but isn't even properly aware of the concept of a max.
- Majority of games are between people who have not studied the dictionary
- Countdown community has 0 influence on how TV show is run.

Co Event Countdown
- Rough estimate, assuming 36 players and Colin style, thats up to 1308 word checks per day at an event
- Players self adjudicate, probably resorting to the host if there is a dispute
- Having guaranteed access to ODO on every table is very rare
- Though not necessary, it's desirable to be able to programatically check for the best word because attendees are generally curious
- Majority of games are between people who have done at least some level of dictionary study (playing lots of Countdown counts as dictionary study!)
- Countdown community has 100% influence and control on how co-events are run.


So the system of "Let's check the ODO on the day" is sufficient for the TV. Is it necessarily the best idea for events? I can think of several reasons why its not:
- ODO are not immune from blunders. There were some updates last year (or the year before) where a load of est/iest words were removed, only for them to be added back in later. It shows that errors are possible on their side. If we blindly take the latest version we can end up with weird situations where you had one event in the year where something like DOPIEST is invalid.
- ODO access becomes a bottleneck for word adjuication, potentially slowing games down
- Lack of available expert means we have to trust our own judgement. Nobody at the event is as qualified or impartial as Susie.
- Check maxes wouldn't be possible (the concept of a max no longer actually exists)
- For players who have studied, it's nice to have a degree of certainty around being up to date with the dictionary. I've witnessed many player get stressed about dictionary updates over the years.



What we need is an agreed source of word list that gets updated at specified agreed published times, and then for events to say "Yeah we'll use vX of that dictionary for this event if its available". On top of this, there should be a tool for checking words against that list, where it is clear when you use that tool that you are on the correct version of the dictionary. If we adopt this system:
- We can check words in a quick, reliable and objective way
- Players know ahead of time what list of words they are expected to play against for a particular event.
- Dictionary is roughly up to date with linguistic changes (provided we make updates at a reasonable cadence. I'd go for biannually)
- We're protected from blunders from 3rd parties (like ODO)
- We control the system and the tools, so if something isn't going well, we can just change it!

[Tim Down]

Using Oxford Online at an event seems like a bad idea to me because of all the usual ambiguities that are resolved when making an update to the Apterous dictionary. Up to a point, it really doesn't matter which words plus arbitrary collections of letters masquerading as words we use, so long as there is a definitive list of them. I'd strongly suggest the position for all events in the short term should be "just use the Apterous dictionary", whether it be via Apterous itself or Jack's app, because most attendees will have access to one or both. If the worry is that it's slightly out of sync with the TV show, big whoop, they don't always agree anyway.

If keeping the Apterous dictionary up to date is becoming a problem, it's definitely worth investigating separating the maintenance of the community's dictionary from Apterous, but I'm firmly in favour of only having one dictionary in use if at all possible, which it should be.

[Fiona T]

Using Oxford Online at an event seems like a bad idea to me because of all the usual ambiguities that are resolved when making an update to the Apterous dictionary. Up to a point, it really doesn't which words plus arbitrary collections of letters masquerading as words we use, so long as there is a definitive list of them. I'd strongly suggest the position for all events in the short term should be "just use the Apterous dictionary", whether it be via Apterous itself or Jack's app, because most attendees will have access to one or both. If the worry is that it's slightly out of sync with the TV show, big whoop, they don't always agree anyway.

If keeping the Apterous dictionary up to date is becoming a problem, it's definitely worth investigating separating the maintenance of the community's dictionary away from Apterous, but I'm firmly in favour of only having one dictionary in use if at all possible, which it should be.

I agree with this. The ideal solution is that the apterous dictionary is kept reasonably up-to-date (the last update was end of 2022 and there are 1985 new words, some 910 of which are 5-9 letters so could be reasonably declared at co-events, including some very sensible everyday words), which was the sole motive behind my prompt ticket, although I agree with Jack that my requested timescale was unrealistic.

[Steve Hyde]

Up to a point, it really doesn't which words plus arbitrary collections of letters masquerading as words we use, so long as there is a definitive list of them. I'd strongly suggest the position for all events in the short term should be "just use the Apterous dictionary", whether it be via Apterous itself or Jack's app, because most attendees will have access to one or both. If the worry is that it's slightly out of sync with the TV show, big whoop, they don't always agree anyway.

I personally think that every effort should be made to keep the dictionary of choice in sync with what the show uses, and that clearly isn't happening with the Apterous dictionary as things stand. I mean, CSW has a pretty definitive list of words but I can't see anyone being happy with using that?

Having said that, I'm not sure that there's likely to be a better solution in time for Co:Lin. I will be absolutely gutted if WILLYART, JAPSEYE or FUCKERY come up and I'm not allowed to play them.

Jack's last post seems to offer a reasonable way forward for future events.

[Adam S Latchford]

Charlie has said he's doing an update this week! Whether before or after Lincoln I'm not certain but since Ben was using the Oxford as final say guess things stay the same. Worldies is finally gonna he valid. As is fuckery

[Charlie Reams]

Apologies for the lack of updates last year -- I overlooked the number of words that needed adding and I'll get that sorted this week.

Making the entire word list available for download would create a much bigger copyright headache than providing a pure look-up service like apterous does, so I really suggest we don't do that.

[Charlie Reams]

https://www.apterous.org/ticket_view.php?ticket=6868

[JackHurst]

RIP to these conundrums, all of which now have an anagram:

BROTHERLY
DETAINING
HEADBOARD
WOODBLOCK
BOARDWALK
SMARTNESS
CRAYONING
SEALPOINT
SUNDERING
BANDOLIER
INSOMNIAC
ATONALISM
COCHINEAL
ANTIMONIC
NOISECORE
RADIOLAND

[Andres Sanchez]

RIP to these conundrums, all of which now have an anagram:

BROTHERLY
DETAINING
HEADBOARD
WOODBLOCK
BOARDWALK
SMARTNESS
CRAYONING
SEALPOINT
SUNDERING
BANDOLIER
INSOMNIAC
ATONALISM
COCHINEAL
ANTIMONIC
NOISECORE
RADIOLAND

Is BROTHELRY in now? I just wanna play a game to guess what their anagrams are.

[Steve Hyde]

SEALPOINT must be ANTIPOLES since Viraj played the singular in the last series final. Boardwalk is BROADWALK, which doesn't even make an interesting conundrum scramble, ditto BLOCKWOOD and BROADHEAD

[Tim Down]

Up to a point, it really doesn't which words plus arbitrary collections of letters masquerading as words we use, so long as there is a definitive list of them. I'd strongly suggest the position for all events in the short term should be "just use the Apterous dictionary", whether it be via Apterous itself or Jack's app, because most attendees will have access to one or both. If the worry is that it's slightly out of sync with the TV show, big whoop, they don't always agree anyway.

I personally think that every effort should be made to keep the dictionary of choice in sync with what the show uses, and that clearly isn't happening with the Apterous dictionary as things stand. I mean, CSW has a pretty definitive list of words but I can't see anyone being happy with using that?

Conceptually, I'd be fine with using CSW. It's just a different set of weirdness, after all. In practice, I'm not up for learning a new dictionary at this point so it would probably end my interest in Countdown. However, I'd also be kind of fine with that.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Apologies in advance for splitting this up.

It appears as though Charlie no longer has the time/motivation to provide Apterous updates with the frequency that people desire.

Obviously was never, ever a problem with a paper dictionary (something something why don’t OUP do an ODE4 and/or COD13) but in defence of Mr C Reams, as explained below, he was blindsided by the number of updates in 2023: personally I don’t think this indicates lack of motivation.

The problem (which I am part of) is that everybody is relying on Apterous for the word list, without offering any alternative solution.

Blame OUP for putting their dictionary behind a paywall. When Lexico was a thing this was a non-issue apart from a tiny number of words.

There are plenty of people in this community with the enthusiasm and capability to take actions without being 100% dependent on Charlie. […] I can't guarantee that Apterous would adopt a community moderated dictionary if we made one

This is obviously “a Charlie problem” but, as he did some years ago now with respect to profile pictures (who I don’t want to name as I haven’t told them I intend to do so) if Charlie felt able to delegate/trust some quote-unquote “dictionary moderators” whose job is to update the dictionary then that would be a good solution.

[…] We could even schedule when updates happen so that they are not just happening "at any time" (which for some reason people think is acceptable?!)

Unless I’m very much mistaken - and I realise I’m not a dictionary boff - does it not still update every quarter?