Co-Event Suggestion Box

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JackHurst
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by JackHurst »

TCap's suggestion is the best solution. Graeme specifically added this feature to the most recent atropine release after several people requested it. So that would be:

- When drawing fixtures, favour equal number of wins between players, but (mostly) ignore points
- When producing final rankings, stick with tradition of wins then points.

And to illustrate the drawbacks of using wins and points for Bristol event with 5 rounds, let's imagine we repeated Co:Rea with 4 rexes and 44 prunes.

P1 Rex1
P2 Rex2
P3 Rex3
P4 Rex4
P5 Prune1
...
P48 Prune44

Assume a Rex maxes every round, and a prune scores 0 on every round, eventually solving a tiebreak conundrum.

Assuming the Rexes all miss each other in the Rd1 draw, then how does your tournament pan out every single time?

R2
You get 2 rex on rex games
You get 22 prune on prune games

R3
You still get 2 rex on rex games. The unbeaten rexes facing off, and the beaten rexes facing off
And again 22 prune on prune games

After Rd 3, one of the Rexes is on 1/3 wins! Loads of prunes still on 3/3 wins. It's already a mathematicaly certainty that there's going to be a prune finish above a rex at this point because you still have unbeaten prunes playing each other in rd 4.


I would hope hosts consider to start using the "Wins only" drawing for short events, and especially for Bristol :) It's not perfect, but it's the best option.
Fiona T
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Fiona T »

Yeah wins have to count or there's no incentive to take any risks in your games. But yep - will be interesting to see how the draws look at Brum!
Fiona T
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Fiona T »

For a Lincoln event, where there are two games happening on the same physical table, if possible make sure that the card sets used look different to avoid cross contamination!
JackHurst
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by JackHurst »

I'm genuinely curious to know from hosts what would happen if a player deliberately beat prune 1-0 (or 0-0 on a TB) in order to boost their overall chances of winning an event.

I dunno if I'd ever have the balls to do it, but for example if Oxford were to have 5 or 6 more sign ups and I got prune in RD1, then I believe the optimal move would be to beat Prune on a tiebreak 😂
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Callum Todd
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Callum Todd »

JackHurst wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 1:15 pm I'm genuinely curious to know from hosts what would happen if a player deliberately beat prune 1-0 (or 0-0 on a TB) in order to boost their overall chances of winning an event.

I dunno if I'd ever have the balls to do it, but for example if Oxford were to have 5 or 6 more sign ups and I got prune in RD1, then I believe the optimal move would be to beat Prune on a tiebreak 😂
how many tiebreaks? :lol:
Mark Deeks wrote:Callum Todd looks like a young Ted Bundy.
Matthew Brockwell
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Matthew Brockwell »

On the earlier subject of conundrum mishaps a piece of blu-tack or tape on the back of them to attach them to the table will stop the worst of the mishaps. Also giving them pre-folded should mitigate the "answer is visible" issue. I've wondered too if FOCAL could get some cheap (donated) Android phones and preload Jack's app on them along with a timer for hosts without either the app or a signed-in apto account.

I'm going to go against the grain of this thread and say I really like the 14 rounder as it delivers letters, numbers and conundrums in a 4:2:1 ratio which feels right to me. Also having two conundrums can mitigate bad organiser conundrum judgement as losing out on two buzzer races feels less like bad luck and more like being outplayed. Graeme's excellent post here: http://www.c4countdown.co.uk/viewtopic. ... um#p179160
Gavin Chipper
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Graeme Cole wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 5:59 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 8:52 am Can all CO-event c4c threads have the title of the top post edited to include the date please?

Edit - Reading and Sheffield are currently the only ones that do this. So not London, Birmingham, Durham and Oxford (though Oxford has the month).
This is obviously a good idea, and to me seems such an uncontroversial no-brainer that I've invoked my mod powers to do it myself.
There's a couple of newer ones around at the moment.
Fiona T
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Fiona T »

*Supernundrums for grand finals only -

assuming they could be displayed in a way that both finalists can see clearly, a good or bad way of deciding what is often a crucial?

*What is a supernundrum?

60 seconds timer rather than 30 seconds

9 not crazy difficult conundrums
first letter of each answer creates a new conundrum - the answer to the supernundrum is this word!

e.g.

Image


Solution - https://ibb.co/8jP7Mxd

Pros: No instabuzz - reasonable chance of mistake in workings
Cons: Inaccessible to non-elite players

I'd really like to trial this !

Edit - maybe needs its own thread?
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Thomas Carey
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Thomas Carey »

I rambled about this here http://www.c4countdown.co.uk/viewtopic. ... um#p200804

We used them a fair bit in lockdown zoom tournaments and it worked well. For the really good players, it meant buzz times separated by about 2 seconds rather than 0.2 - much less dependent on reaction time. For the rest of us we'd usually get them but towards the middle or end of the time. I'm all for seeing it tried (obviously not in heat games). If it doesn't work, we gave it a go, and I think most of us aren't fans of tournaments being decided by reaction tests.
cheers maus
JackHurst
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by JackHurst »

Would love to see this given a go. Much more drama and tension than a standard Conundrum. From a gameplay perspective, it's a better test of consistency and composure which is probably what you want in a final. Also can't be Hansforded.

More downsides:
- 10 times more like the setter can make a mistake
- Getting the audience to be fully quiet for 60s might be impossible. Very important for a supernundrum as knocking somebody of their rhythm would affect what sub solution letters they have memorized
- You need a projector and screen for this even if you didn't use it for the rest of the event.
- Not currently openly accessible for people to practise

I used to have a website where you could play these, will look into reviving it.
Fiona T
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Fiona T »

JackHurst wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 6:28 am - 10 times more like the setter can make a mistake
In terms of mistakes, the stuff I'm building into roboriley already checks that at an individual level that scrambles match solutions, and that the first letter of the solutions matches the final answer. What it doesn't currently do but feasibly could, is check that there is only one valid solution for any conundrum. In terms of valid conundrums (no regular plurals etc) I don't think I can do that unless someone maintains and is happy to share a full list of valid conundrums.
JackHurst wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 6:28 am I used to have a website where you could play these, will look into reviving it.
That would be great :)
Fiona T
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Fiona T »

So inspired by a question on fb from a co-event newbie as to whether there would be buzzers on every table, I've knocked together this...

http://titcombe.co.uk/fiona/buzzer.html

I think it's pretty similar to the app that Beachy's got on his iphone, but web based so nothing needed to download and should work across different devices, but will require a network connection initially (once your phone's cached it, it will probably work without, maybe...)

I don't know if it's preferable to tapping the table but happy for people to try it, check they're happy it gives accurate results on close taps, and share the link if they want to give people the option of using it. I haven't tried lots of people accessing the page at once, but given the code basically runs in your browser, it should be fine...

Also for simultaneous buzzes, where an adjudicator and var would call a re-do, it's going to announce a winner - but I guess apterous does that!

I think very close buzzes are ok - but happy for people to test and tell me it's not accurate enough! It's ridiculously simple, so might not measure up!
Last edited by Fiona T on Wed Jul 03, 2024 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gavin Chipper
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Ooh, that looks really good.
JackHurst
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by JackHurst »

Looks good Fiona, nice job.

"Player 1 Buzzed" -> "⬅️ This player buzzed"
"Player 2 Buzzed" -> "This player Buzzed➡️"

Some sort of visual indication that makes it very obvious to the host because I don't think a host would necessarily remember who is P1/P2/Red/Blue when they've got several other things on their mind while reffing the conundrum.
Eeshan Malhotra
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Re: Co-Event Suggestion Box

Post by Eeshan Malhotra »

(This feels like the best thread to post this, but if it needs to be moved that's okay)
Some questions about situations that have arisen while hosting games (at a Lincoln style event) that I definitely don't know the answers to, but possibly aren't codified at all:

1. If a player is picking letters too slow, what should the host to?
My response to this has usually been to gently ask them to speed up, but at some point, should the host just pick a letter arbitrarily? (Assuming the min/max for vowels/consonants doesn't apply in the situation of course)
1b. How slow is too slow to warrant a warning or other intervention?
I don't think anyone wants to actually have a timer that starts each time someone is picking a letter, but if a host is expected to go by gut feel, it would be good to have a target to calibrate that feel to. 5 seconds?

2. Is it okay if someone declares a target not written down and breaks it down rather than building it up?
For example when orally solving a numbers game for 689, they go "689 is 684 plus 5, 684 comes from 57 times 12. The 57 is 50 plus 7 and the 12 is 3 times 4"
They clearly have a correct solution in their head, so I'm inclined to say yeah cool, but not sure if I'm doing the right thing.

3. Do you have to do computations for the player describing their calculation (like Rachel on TV), or ask for the full method without helping them?
If the player goes "(50+9+4) times 7", is the host required to calculate this (mentally or otherwise) and tell the player before they then describe the next step in their method as "then add 1". On one hand, this helps a player who lost track of their computation and isn't sure if the last number needs to be added or subtracted. On the other hand, this is a valid strategy on the show, so why not at Co events. I think both arguments have merits, but I'd really like to know the consensus (as both host and player)

Meta comment: In most games, these situations don't even arise. And most of the times they do, the players and host mutually sort it out amongst themselves. But if these sorts of things are codified on a reference page (a) it may make newer hosts feel confident they can tackle weird situation (b) in the rare situation there's a dispute among players, it's easy to point to a document
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