Spoilers for Tuesday 10 January 2023 - CoC XVI, Prelim 7

[Philip A]

Two Series 85 representatives go head-to-head in the penultimate 1st-round match: semi-finalist Steve Hyde and champion Dan Byrom.

[Rhys Benjamin]

I did the second numbers Rachel’s way, and was excited that I might have had a “Winner!!!!” but Rachel scuppered that one.

Not sure how both Steve and Dan missed this.

[Gavin Chipper]

I did the second numbers Rachel’s way, and was excited that I might have had a “Winner!!!!” but Rachel scuppered that one.

Not sure how both Steve and Dan missed this.

I actually got the first one but not the second. I didn't see the divisibility by 7 having been too focused on the 450 + 12 thing, but that's poor form by me, especially considering I turned away from 13*75 early enough in the first round.

But these things happen. Numbers are harder than letters under pressure according to most people.

[Adam S Latchford]

Perfectly reasonable numbers miss confused as to how you're surprised. Numbers way tougher in the studio.
I did 22x21 for it which is the true sexy way

[Rhys Benjamin]

Also how were both players able to guess the conundrum with the final light on? Does that mean the buzzers are no longer locked out when the clock isn’t on?

I always thought that the clock’s “bong” started with the final light on, marking 30 seconds…? I once saw a YouTube comment highlighting this was incorrect in the past, and the camera would cut to Richard on the “bong” before the final light came on, but this has been fixed in recent years, so that’s surprising.

Edit: also, that must mean Colin has a digital clock in his desk? Because why would you restart the clock if the 30th light is on?

[Philip A]

Does that mean the buzzers are no longer locked out when the clock isn’t on?

I always thought that the clock’s “bong” started with the final light on, marking 30 seconds…? I once saw a YouTube comment highlighting this was incorrect in the past, and the camera would cut to Richard on the “bong” before the final light came on, but this has been fixed in recent years, so that’s surprising.

Edit: also, that must mean Colin has a digital clock in his desk? Because why would you restart the clock if the 30th light is on?

I could be wrong, but I don’t think any of the above is true. It’s all manual, I believe. The host has a monitor which indicates who buzzed, but I don’t think there’s a digital clock. If it was dead automatic then it would probably increase budget. Accuracy is not dead accurate nor taken absolutely seriously (never has been), and the clock music composition doesn’t ‘tick’ at 0.5 seconds dead, hence why the ‘boom’ starts to sound just before the last light turns on. I notice the music going very slightly out of sync halfway though.

Just remember the show doesn’t adopt the exact same practices every other show, hence changes in lighting, formalities, measures, repechage and the occasional slip-up in nearly 8,000 shows.

But I agree that if you buzz in after the 30th light, you shouldn’t answer. A fun end nonetheless, but allowing someone to answer when clearly out of time by a split second would be too contentious in crucial conundrums.

[Gavin Chipper]

I think if someone buzzes in and gets it wrong, then the other player should have the opportunity to guess as well because it's the same time left and it shouldn't be a question of how fast their reactions are.

[Philip A]

I think if someone buzzes in and gets it wrong, then the other player should have the opportunity to guess as well because it's the same time left and it shouldn't be a question of how fast their reactions are.

I’m bewildered by this TBH.

[Gavin Chipper]

I think if someone buzzes in and gets it wrong, then the other player should have the opportunity to guess as well because it's the same time left and it shouldn't be a question of how fast their reactions are.

I’m bewildered by this TBH.

What about it?

[Philip A]

I think if someone buzzes in and gets it wrong, then the other player should have the opportunity to guess as well because it's the same time left and it shouldn't be a question of how fast their reactions are.

I’m bewildered by this TBH.

What about it?

If your opponent gets it wrong, then you get the opportunity to guess anyway, with the time remaining (as long as you press your buzzer - one of my opponents answered before buzzing but this was refilmed). Just wondering if you meant they should guess straight away without buzzing in? I don’t think the rules should be changed at all.

[Gavin Chipper]

I’m bewildered by this TBH.

What about it?

If your opponent gets it wrong, then you get the opportunity to guess anyway, with the time remaining (as long as you press your buzzer - one of my opponents answered before buzzing but this was refilmed). Just wondering if you meant they should guess straight away without buzzing in? I don’t think the rules should be changed at all.

Well I wasn't sure what to take from yours and Rhys's conversation. There seemed to be the suggestion that Steve shouldn't have had the chance to buzz after Dan's incorrect guess.

Edit: also, that must mean Colin has a digital clock in his desk? Because why would you restart the clock if the 30th light is on?

But I agree that if you buzz in after the 30th light, you shouldn’t answer. A fun end nonetheless, but allowing someone to answer when clearly out of time by a split second would be too contentious in crucial conundrums.

[Philip A]

What about it?

If your opponent gets it wrong, then you get the opportunity to guess anyway, with the time remaining (as long as you press your buzzer - one of my opponents answered before buzzing but this was refilmed). Just wondering if you meant they should guess straight away without buzzing in? I don’t think the rules should be changed at all.

Well I wasn't sure what to take from yours and Rhys's conversation. There seemed to be the suggestion that Steve shouldn't have had the chance to buzz after Dan's incorrect guess.

Edit: also, that must mean Colin has a digital clock in his desk? Because why would you restart the clock if the 30th light is on?

But I agree that if you buzz in after the 30th light, you shouldn’t answer. A fun end nonetheless, but allowing someone to answer when clearly out of time by a split second would be too contentious in crucial conundrums.

Ah, but both players clearly buzzed after all the clock’s lights turned on, so in my view neither should have had a chance to answer at all, regardless of who buzzes first or second. That was a weird cut of the conundrum, I have to say. They were both clearly out of time. It should be hard and fast like Only Connect where your buzzer won’t sound after the bong even if you’re 0.01 seconds out.

I did (6*8-10-5)*25+1 for 826.

[Gavin Chipper]

The Only Connect thing where they buzz in at the last possible moment in a game of chicken with the timer seems a bit silly to me. They basically always buzz (they very rarely don't make a guess even if they have no idea) so it might as well just auto-buzz at the end of the time rather than require them to actually press the buzzer. Similarly if one contestant has already buzzed in incorrectly with the conundrum, they might as well just ask the other player if they have an answer at the end of the time if they haven't already buzzed in.

[Philip A]

The Only Connect thing where they buzz in at the last possible moment in a game of chicken with the timer seems a bit silly to me. They basically always buzz (they very rarely don't make a guess even if they have no idea) so it might as well just auto-buzz at the end of the time rather than require them to actually press the buzzer. Similarly if one contestant has already buzzed in incorrectly with the conundrum, they might as well just ask the other player if they have an answer at the end of the time if they haven't already buzzed in.

I disagree. The requirement for both players to buzz in within the timit limit before answering is perfectly fine and doesn’t need changing at all. Lots of quiz shows do it this way and it’s perfectly reasonable.

[Philip A]

NEURAXES in Round 4, plural of neuraxis. Numbers easily missed under pressure, especially in a CoC. I totally forgot about 462=66*7.

Both players were a lot of fun. Commiserations to Steve and well played Dan.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Nice try, Mum, shouting out RESTAURANT at the screen on Round 4 which is 10 letters long and has 3 phantom letters.

[Philip A]

Having rewatched the conundrum, maybe it’s the entire music that’s used for accurate timing, including the fade-out in the bong, which might explain why Colin said that Steve had 0.1 seconds left. Interesting either way.

[Rhys Benjamin]

3rd nums alt: (8 x 5 - 6) x (25 - 1) + 10

[Dan Byrom]

Those numbers games were challenging but gettable. On top form after a good night's sleep sat at my computer without pressure, I could hit all of them. On an average day, maybe one or two. With the cameras on, time seems to pass so quickly!

[Gavin Chipper]

The Only Connect thing where they buzz in at the last possible moment in a game of chicken with the timer seems a bit silly to me. They basically always buzz (they very rarely don't make a guess even if they have no idea) so it might as well just auto-buzz at the end of the time rather than require them to actually press the buzzer. Similarly if one contestant has already buzzed in incorrectly with the conundrum, they might as well just ask the other player if they have an answer at the end of the time if they haven't already buzzed in.

I disagree. The requirement for both players to buzz in within the timit limit before answering is perfectly fine and doesn’t need changing at all. Lots of quiz shows do it this way and it’s perfectly reasonable.

Normally a buzzer is for when there's a competition to see who gets there first. It's a bit like if they had to buzz at the end of the minute's thinking time in Pointless. Pointless.

and the clock music composition doesn’t ‘tick’ at 0.5 seconds dead, hence why the ‘boom’ starts to sound just before the last light turns on. I notice the music going very slightly out of sync halfway though.

On this, it's because the clock ticks 64 times during the music rather than 60, presumably because it makes for a better musical pattern.

[Rhys Benjamin]

and the clock music composition doesn’t ‘tick’ at 0.5 seconds dead, hence why the ‘boom’ starts to sound just before the last light turns on. I notice the music going very slightly out of sync halfway though.

On this, it's because the clock ticks 64 times during the music rather than 60, presumably because it makes for a better musical pattern.

The question is whether the "bong" is part of the 30 seconds or not, as far as I see it. In my opinion, it shouldn't be, and the music should be slowed down by 1/30th of a second (or however long) to accommodate it so the "bong" hits as soon as light 30 turns on. At that point, the clock should be considered "over" and the buzzers off.

To indicate what I mean about "the past" - at 5:32 in this video you can clearly hear the bong before the handle reaches the bottom and it cuts to Richard, let alone the light coming on. It's not an audio sync error either.

The Only Connect thing where they buzz in at the last possible moment in a game of chicken with the timer seems a bit silly to me. They basically always buzz (they very rarely don't make a guess even if they have no idea) so it might as well just auto-buzz at the end of the time rather than require them to actually press the buzzer. Similarly if one contestant has already buzzed in incorrectly with the conundrum, they might as well just ask the other player if they have an answer at the end of the time if they haven't already buzzed in.

I disagree. The requirement for both players to buzz in within the timit limit before answering is perfectly fine and doesn’t need changing at all. Lots of quiz shows do it this way and it’s perfectly reasonable.

Normally a buzzer is for when there's a competition to see who gets there first. It's a bit like if they had to buzz at the end of the minute's thinking time in Pointless. Pointless.

Take the first part of The final Chase (assuming more than one player), the team has to buzz inside the 60 seconds, and the klaxon at the end doesn't accept buzzes when it sounds, meaning it is not considered part of the 60 seconds.

tl;dr - the bong shouldn't be considered part of the 30 seconds

[Toby McDonald]

Well done Dan, LETTIGAS and TAWDRIER were nice spots. Commiserations Steve.

[Ryan Lam]

Welcome to the Alternative to the Series 85 Grand Final where Steve Hyde "somehow" is seating opposite to Dan Byrom and where Steve won the First Semi-Final and Dan won the Second! Just kidding, anyways, thanks to Matty Artell our Series 73 Quarter-Finalist who introduced us during the second break that Dan also is a musician via the Daily Chat. That's something I didn't know of beforehand and wow, that is extremely talented of him. Speaking of which, I personally would have preferred if he had wore glasses, he looks smarter and nicer when you compare that to his appearances last year

Letters: You know this is going to be an exciting match when both had HAILSTONE in R1 and the tie in scores happened all the way until the anecdote. Then, the breakaway happened with LETTIGAS in R7 as Dan takes a small leap ahead. What a bad round afterwards and let's pretend R8 never happened. After Origins of Words, that's when Dan made the final push to the finish line, with TAWDRIER in R12 and PADRONNE in R13. Unlucky to Steve who needed a nine in the latter to stay in the game and went with unpronate (which was what some of us in the Daily Chat predicted he would risk)

Numbers: Both contestants decide to go easy at first with Steve selecting 1 Large in R3 (the target is easy to miss since getting 975 is simple) and Dan selecting 2 Large in R6.

Those numbers games were challenging but gettable. On top form after a good night's sleep sat at my computer without pressure, I could hit all of them. On an average day, maybe one or two. With the cameras on, time seems to pass so quickly!

Ah, the pressure must have gotten to them since 462 is a multiple of 7 which both missed and afterwards in R9 where an alternative of 33 × 25 + 1 was possible but not found, unlucky However, Dan being closer to the target both times was what made him separate out against Steve even more and even though he had won by R14, he wants 3 Large, and it's not even difficult at all, so well done to both for keeping their cool and getting the last target.

Conundrum: I know, there's a lot of dispute as to what really happened since technically the buzzers should have locked out once the full 30 seconds are up and the last second lights up. However, that doesn't seem to be the case where after Dan gives an incorrect answer to solve the RICE TRAIL, there was still 0.1 seconds left (which begs the question, is there really a digital timer somewhere?) Steve with his lightning fast reaction, manages to buzz in the nick of time with also another incorrect answer which left Colin going "Yeah, as if that will get you anywhere"

(P.S. If you want another good example of a similar situation albeit with just one side involved, perhaps look at the most recent Christmas Catsdown where Rose buzzed in at the 30 second mark due to her slow reaction time and compare.)

Assuming Dan and Steve's skills have remained unchanged from half a year ago, if this had been the Series 85 Grand Final, there would have been less "drama" and a straight victory for Dan. Not saying this episode would have been less interesting to watch and more boring, there were highlights too especially the first round and of course that controversial conundrum buzzes. Sorry to see you go Steve, but I'm sure it was an honour for you to have met the late Richard Whiteley in your first appearance (and being the only contestant here to do so!) and of course, a total coincidence to reappear 18 years to the day since you joined the show. Once again, congratulations on your Countdown book and I'm sure while your readers may not be much, they enjoy it. All the best in your work and at least you had a chance to face Dan eventually despite your loss at Matt!

Wow, every single Grand Champion from Series 81 to 85 has made it into the Quarter-Finals, that is some lineup as you can tell commencing from Thursday onwards with four of them facing each other. One last Preliminary to go, and it's yet another highly anticipated match, because I mentioned last week that should Sam Cappleman-Lynes win, it will be a Husband vs Wife showdown the following day. Will Matt O'Connor, the policeman halt him in his tracks to clinch that precious last spot? Don't stop watching as we approach the halfway mark of the Championship!

Progress:
Preliminary 1 (02 January 2023): Florence Cappleman-Lynes (Series 84 Runner-Up) vs Leo Smith (Series 82 Semi-Finalist) (100 - 69)
Preliminary 2 (03 January 2023): Dinos Sfyris (Series 80 Grand Champion) vs Elliott Mellor (Series 80 Runner-Up) (88 - 110)
Preliminary 3 (04 January 2023): Ahmed Mohamed (Series 84 Grand Champion) vs Edward Byrne (Series 86 Runner-Up) (121 - 76)
Preliminary 4 (05 January 2023): Stu Harkness (Series 84 Semi-Finalist) vs James Haughton (Series 81 Grand Champion) (97 - 111)
Preliminary 5 (06 January 2023): Tom Stevenson (Series 86 Grand Champion) vs Adam Latchford (Series 83 Grand Champion) (95 - 97)
Preliminary 6 (09 January 2023): Martin May (Series 79 Runner-Up) vs Luke-Johnson Davies (Series 82 Grand Champion) (90 - 117)
Preliminary 7 (10 January 2023): Steve Hyde (Series 85 Semi-Finalist) vs Dan Byrom (Series 85 Grand Champion) (70 - 108)
Preliminary 8 (11 January 2023): Matt O'Connor (Series 85 Runner-Up) vs Sam Cappleman-Lynes (Series 82 Runner-Up)
Quarter-Finals 1 (12 January 2023): Florence Cappleman-Lynes (Preliminary 1 Winner) vs (Preliminary 8 Winner)
Quarter-Finals 2 (13 January 2023): Elliott Mellor (Preliminary 2 Winner) vs Dan Byrom (Preliminary 7 Winner)
Quarter-Finals 3 (16 January 2023): Ahmed Mohamed (Preliminary 3 Winner) vs Luke Johnson-Davies (Preliminary 6 Winner)
Quarter-Finals 4 (17 January 2023): James Haughton (Preliminary 4 Winner) vs Adam Latchford (Preliminary 5 Winner)
Semi-Finals 1 (18 January 2023): (Quarter-Finals 1 Winner) vs (Quarter-Finals 4 Winner)
Semi-Finals 2 (19 January 2023): (Quarter-Finals 2 Winner) vs (Quarter-Finals 3 Winner)
Championship Final (20 January 2023): (Semi-Finals 1 Winner) vs (Semi-Finals 2 Winner)

[JackHurst]

Great win for Dan! TAWDRIER and LETTIGAS both quality spots.

Another great conundrum in this episode too!

[Rhys Benjamin]

The Only Connect thing where they buzz in at the last possible moment in a game of chicken with the timer seems a bit silly to me. They basically always buzz (they very rarely don't make a guess even if they have no idea) so it might as well just auto-buzz at the end of the time rather than require them to actually press the buzzer. Similarly if one contestant has already buzzed in incorrectly with the conundrum, they might as well just ask the other player if they have an answer at the end of the time if they haven't already buzzed in.

I disagree. The requirement for both players to buzz in within the timit limit before answering is perfectly fine and doesn’t need changing at all. Lots of quiz shows do it this way and it’s perfectly reasonable.

Normally a buzzer is for when there's a competition to see who gets there first. It's a bit like if they had to buzz at the end of the minute's thinking time in Pointless. Pointless.

and the clock music composition doesn’t ‘tick’ at 0.5 seconds dead, hence why the ‘boom’ starts to sound just before the last light turns on. I notice the music going very slightly out of sync halfway though.

On this, it's because the clock ticks 64 times during the music rather than 60, presumably because it makes for a better musical pattern.

Lightbulb moment:

The “death tempo” at Eurovision is 128bpm. Since 2000 (i.e “the modern era”), songs at 127 or 128 have finished last on 7 occasions and never won.

128 is very popular because it allows for 96 bars at 4/4 time inside 3 minutes (the strict ESC time limit). That means you can have:

8 bars of introduction
8 bars of verse 1
16 bars of chorus
8 bars of verse 2
16 bars of chorus
8 bars of bridge
16 bars of chorus
16 bars of reprise chorus / outro

And it’s exactly 3 minutes.

In the Countdown clock music we have 30 seconds, and thus 128bpm works as well. You can clearly hear distinct musical phrasing in the Countdown tune. In terms of bars the pattern is six lots of 8-count for the main bit. The ending is one count of 8, followed by one count of 4, and then the coda on the end is seemingly non-musical.

[Jon O'Neill]

In the Countdown clock music we have 30 seconds, and thus 128bpm works as well. You can clearly hear distinct musical phrasing in the Countdown tune. In terms of bars the pattern is six lots of 8-count for the main bit. The ending is one count of 8, followed by one count of 4, and then the coda on the end is seemingly non-musical.

Interesting question. I count it as 15 bars of 4/4, then two bars of 6/8 for the last 2 seconds. But there are probably more musically knowledgeable people than me who would know.