c4countdown

There have been a couple of references to this (and some bizarre letter selections), and I'd be interested to know the current system.

When I first watched it was uncommon to have two letters the same in any selection, apart from an occasional two Es. This had to mean that the selections weren't random. (If a third of the vowels are E, then the first three vowels in a round would be E once in every 27 rounds, or twice a week.) What was happening was that the member of the production staff who sorted the vowels and consonants put them face up in piles of four or five which were kept as free as possible of duplicates, so that when these piles were put together there was very little chance of duplicates in any one round.

Later I think Damian saw what was happening, and decided to curtail it in a deliberate attempt to make the game more difficult. But not as hard as this week! So can someone tell us the full story, please.

David

It appears that the letters are replaced in virtually the same order for each new game, as very similar groupings seem to come out in programme after programme. So are the letters being "shuffled" enough?

Andy Thomson wrote:It appears that the letters are replaced in virtually the same order for each new game, as very similar groupings seem to come out in programme after programme. So are the letters being "shuffled" enough?

Seeme to be a distinct possibility I have watched countdown from day one and never have such a predictable run of vowel triples occured I think you may be right we will see when the next series starts if a return to a normal random selection occurs.

Les Butterworth wrote:

Andy Thomson wrote:It appears that the letters are replaced in virtually the same order for each new game, as very similar groupings seem to come out in programme after programme. So are the letters being "shuffled" enough?

Seeme to be a distinct possibility I have watched countdown from day one and never have such a predictable run of vowel triples occured I think you may be right we will see when the next series starts if a return to a normal random selection occurs.

Other people have mentioned on here more than once the answer to this question but I'll repeat it here. They film 5 shows a day and on these 5 shows the normal "shuffler" was absent so they hand a standby guy who obviously doesn't use the same technique as the normal shuffler. Charlie assures us that on the next filming day the shuffler returned, as did the normal selections. Let's see....

Yes. But what is the technique? It's not what it was years ago.

David Williams wrote:Yes. But what is the technique? It's not what it was years ago.

Damian told the girl who was shuffling that he was sick of seeing A,E,I or O,I,E nearly every selection. It may feel intuitively random but it isn't actually random at all. The old system involved deliberate shuffling so that repitition of letters would be minimised: hardly random. The shuffler was merely told to not cherry pick the letters as she was shuffling and subsequently we had a few bizarre selections. Quite a few of us complained that rather than producing challenging selections this system seemed to be producing dull, flat selections. Damian, to his credit, took these points on board and reverted to the old shuffling system (though, not wholesale) and the selections improve in the next two weeks. I do think Damian had a point though and it definitely made a mockery of my list of stems!

Back on the 3 U's theme, I thought of UBIQUITOUS but it's 10.

Handy if Charlie is shuffling for Hypercountdown, on the other hand.

Hi Guys,

Well spotted that there was a change of shuffler for the CofC - though I should expect no less from you all! Yes, I'm afraid I was off sunning myself on the first day of recording (the first five shows) and although I was back for the subsquent two days, I wasn't actually working in the capacity of shuffler as I had a new set to familiarise myself with and all the associated teething problems to iron-out. So, appologies if the selections still appear somewhat 'different' to normal - although I have to say that I thought they were suitably challenging for the CofC!

Michael, who covered for me, used to shuffle the letters about 8 years ago immediately before I took over the role so I'm surprised that you've found his selections so unusual - maybe he's altered his technique!

I'm now back at the helm again so you should (hopefully) notice that normal service has been resumed from week 4 of transmission....

Nice to be missed!

Demi - Countdown Art Director and Head Shuffler!

Demi wrote:Hi Guys,

Well spotted that there was a change of shuffler for the CofC - though I should expect no less from you all! Yes, I'm afraid I was off sunning myself on the first day of recording (the first five shows) and although I was back for the subsquent two days, I wasn't actually working in the capacity of shuffler as I had a new set to familiarise myself with and all the associated teething problems to iron-out. So, appologies if the selections still appear somewhat 'different' to normal - although I have to say that I thought they were suitably challenging for the CofC!

Michael, who covered for me, used to shuffle the letters about 8 years ago immediately before I took over the role so I'm surprised that you've found his selections so unusual - maybe he's altered his technique!

I'm now back at the helm again so you should (hopefully) notice that normal service has been resumed from week 4 of transmission....

Nice to be missed!

Demi - Countdown Art Director and Head Shuffler!

Awesome. Good to have you posting Demi. Let's have more 9s!

Demi is also pretty cool. Just so you know.

Cheers Charlie. Kirk- I still can't believe you didn't get that nine!!

Demi wrote:Cheers Charlie. Kirk- I still can't believe you didn't get that nine!!

Ha. I can't believe you missed that ten though.

Demi wrote:Cheers Charlie. Kirk- I still can't believe you didn't get that nine!!

But I wonder if he missed the 924 (of Julian Fell).

No self-respecting shuffler could possibly sleep at night without making sure DXTSC and AIO are at the top of the letters packs at the start of round 1 every once in a while... any problems with insomnia lately, Demi?

To coin a TV phrase which I love to be able to use.... You'll have to watch to find out!!!

Demi wrote:To coin a TV phrase which I love to be able to use.... You'll have to watch to find out!!!

Oohh...you are a tease.

Ha! Like I told you, I cannot be bought Simon! Though anyone is welcome to try....

Simon Myers wrote:No self-respecting shuffler can possibly sleep at night

Oh, I dunno. Even I get tired eventually.

Kai Laddiman wrote:Back on the 3 U's theme, I thought of UBIQUITOUS but it's 10.

3 U's? Susurrus. And a letter to spare.

Now that the CofC is over, does anyone know how many nines there were in total over the 3 weeks? And how this compares to an 'average' 3 weeks?
My point is that if the champions have been getting fewer nines, that would seem to indicate some different shuffling. (Arguably, if the champions are only getting approximately the same number of nines as 'regular' folk that would indicate some different shuffling techniques, factoring in for the higher ability of the contestants).
Also, could someone please enlighten me as to the signifance of the letters DXTSC and AIO?

Neil Zussman wrote:Also, could someone please enlighten me as to the signifance of the letters DXTSC and AIO?

I'm assuming here but it's probably a reference to Simon Myer's favourite word?
Or perhaps he's referring to a show he appeared on where those letters come out.
DOXASTIC

Matt Morrison wrote:

Neil Zussman wrote:Also, could someone please enlighten me as to the signifance of the letters DXTSC and AIO?

I'm assuming here but it's probably a reference to Simon Myer's favourite word?
Or perhaps he's referring to a show he appeared on where those letters come out.
DOXASTIC

Ah thanks for that. I guessed it might be an anagram of an 8-letter word, but an online anagram-solver didn't find anything. I didn't think to use the stemmer

It is indeed an in-joke as Simon tested me on my DACOITS stem and DOXASTIC is simply the best word ever and I always will it to come out.

My point is that if the champions have been getting fewer nines, that would seem to indicate some different shuffling. (Arguably, if the champions are only getting approximately the same number of nines as 'regular' folk that would indicate some different shuffling techniques, factoring in for the higher ability of the contestants).

Neil - see my earlier post....

Well spotted that there was a change of shuffler for the CofC - though I should expect no less from you all! Yes, I'm afraid I was off sunning myself on the first day of recording (the first five shows) and although I was back for the subsquent two days, I wasn't actually working in the capacity of shuffler as I had a new set to familiarise myself with and all the associated teething problems to iron-out. So, appologies if the selections still appear somewhat 'different' to normal - although I have to say that I thought they were suitably challenging for the CofC!

Michael, who covered for me, used to shuffle the letters about 8 years ago immediately before I took over the role so I'm surprised that you've found his selections so unusual - maybe he's altered his technique!

I'm now back at the helm again so you should (hopefully) notice that normal service has been resumed from week 4 of transmission....

Demi wrote:Neil - see my earlier post....

Well spotted that there was a change of shuffler for the CofC - though I should expect no less from you all! Yes, I'm afraid I was off sunning myself on the first day of recording (the first five shows) and although I was back for the subsquent two days, I wasn't actually working in the capacity of shuffler as I had a new set to familiarise myself with and all the associated teething problems to iron-out. So, appologies if the selections still appear somewhat 'different' to normal - although I have to say that I thought they were suitably challenging for the CofC!

Michael, who covered for me, used to shuffle the letters about 8 years ago immediately before I took over the role so I'm surprised that you've found his selections so unusual - maybe he's altered his technique!

I'm now back at the helm again so you should (hopefully) notice that normal service has been resumed from week 4 of transmission....

Ah yes, apologies Demi.
I'm lagging a bit behind on the current episodes, so someone will have to tell me if the difference has been noticeable?

If I were the shuffler, I wouldn't be able to resist ordering the consonants F C K S H T C R P B G G R W N K...
I think you can guess how I'd order the vowels

Roxanne wrote:If I were the shuffler, I wouldn't be able to resist ordering the consonants F C K S H T C R P B G G R W N K...
I think you can guess how I'd order the vowels

As long as you don't mind Damian charging down and making sure the next three tiles would be P, 4 and 5 that would be awesome.

Roxanne wrote:If I were the shuffler, I wouldn't be able to resist ordering the consonants F C K S H T C R P B G G R W N K...
I think you can guess how I'd order the vowels

I guess the first 3 vowels would be U, I and A, but actually if the first 3 vowels were A, E and I and the selection was therefore F C K A E I S H T, as well as FISHCAKE for 8, there is a rude 8 also I believe (I remember these 9 letters coming up on a round on the Countdown DVD )

Joseph Bolas wrote:

Roxanne wrote:If I were the shuffler, I wouldn't be able to resist ordering the consonants F C K S H T C R P B G G R W N K...
I think you can guess how I'd order the vowels

I guess the first 3 vowels would be U, I and A, but actually if the first 3 vowels were A, E and I and the selection was therefore F C K A E I S H T, as well as FISHCAKE for 8, there is a rude 8 also I believe (I remember these 9 letters coming up on a round on the Countdown DVD )

I remember those 9 letters coming up at my friggin' audition!

Ben Wilson wrote:

Joseph Bolas wrote:I guess the first 3 vowels would be U, I and A, but actually if the first 3 vowels were A, E and I and the selection was therefore F C K A E I S H T, as well as FISHCAKE for 8, there is a rude 8 also I believe (I remember these 9 letters coming up on a round on the Countdown DVD )

I remember those 9 letters coming up at my friggin' audition!

You probably played it safe though and said FISHCAKE, right?

Ben Wilson wrote:I remember those 9 letters coming up at my friggin' audition!

Speaking of which, does anybody still have a copy of their audition so I have some idea of what to expect. Kirk gave me a few letters rounds and I found them very very tough!
Can anybody help me out? I'd really appreciate it. Also, how many of the rounds do you think you'd have to max to pass, I mean surely not everybody is expected to spot GREYHOUND?

I can just about remember some of the letters rounds from some of my old auditions.

CEEEGINRT
ABEEGLOPR
BDEEIKLNR
CEJKIOSTY

Innis Carson wrote:I can just about remember some of the letters rounds from some of my old auditions.

CEEEGINRT
ABEEGLOPR
BDEEIKLNR
CEJKIOSTY

ERECTING
ROPEABLE
BLINKERED
JOYSTICK



Thanks for these, I suppose it's best to see most of them as conundrums?

I think it probably is, yeah, but try to quickly get a safe 7 or something in case you don't see the deliberate 8/9 max. By the way, you got 2 out of 4 maxes, better than anyone at the audition did.

Innis Carson wrote:I think it probably is, yeah, but try to quickly get a safe 7 or something in case you don't see the deliberate 8/9 max. By the way, you got 2 out of 4 maxes, better than anyone at the audition did.

ENERGETIC
GROPEABLE

From what I remember, you are allowed to declare a safe and a dodgy word. If the dodgy word's in, you get that, but if not, you get the safe one. Also the rounds are 35 seconds, not 30.

No GROPEABLE, nice one with ENERGETIC though.

Innis Carson wrote:No GROPEABLE, nice one with ENERGETIC though.

Oh yeh, BARGEPOLE. It was a conundrum in the calendar and that was the scramble.

A conundrum with two possible answers????

I think this topic is about to take a turn for the worse.

Innis Carson wrote:A conundrum with two possible answers????

I think this topic is about to take a turn for the worse.

Nah, GROPEABLE was the scramble, which, although it sounds likely, isn't a word.

There's PORBEAGLE though. Obviously.

Innis Carson wrote:There's PORBEAGLE though. Obviously.

Oh. Damn you Stewart Holden! I bet any fool would have seen PORBEAGLE first, but looked and seen that it wasn't the answer! You monster!

I've just logged on to this forum because something has been irritating me for a few weeks now. There is clearly something different about the 'shuffling' of the letters in this latest series.
Having got quite anal about it and actually counting the number of repeated consonants it peaked today when all bar one of the games had a repeated consonant. And that game had a repeated vowel, TWICE!
While I appreciate the chances of a repeated vowel are high, surely having a repeated consonant in almost every set of 9 is a bit more than a coincidence???

I haven't seen today's programme yet but it was noticeable yesterday that EOE came up three times in addition to coming up the previous day, as the first three vowels chosen.
It's a group that always sticks in mind from my working days.

John Jones wrote:I've just logged on to this forum because something has been irritating me for a few weeks now. There is clearly something different about the 'shuffling' of the letters in this latest series.
Having got quite anal about it and actually counting the number of repeated consonants it peaked today when all bar one of the games had a repeated consonant. And that game had a repeated vowel, TWICE!
While I appreciate the chances of a repeated vowel are high, surely having a repeated consonant in almost every set of 9 is a bit more than a coincidence???

In which case, you may be pleased to hear that I'm being made redundant.

What on earth are you people talking about? You make my blood boil.

The selections are RANDOM for gods sake, of course you are going to get 3 of a kind etc - have you never heard of the game of poker? So EOE came out 3 times, there are more E's than any other vowel, its statistically going to happen. Don't be so naive and pathetic to blame the 'shuffler', its the same Demi who was 'shuffled' for 6 frigging years.

Its called randomisation. Do us a favour and get a life please. Wow, a repeated consonant. Call the police, march to Downing Street. Honestly, this is utterly pathetic. Pay no attention Demi. Some people just have no idea what they are talking about and shouldn't be allowed Internet access.

Have I ever mentioned how great my producer is??

Did i ever mention how pants this forum can be at times?

I can feel a bout of self-exclusion coming on again.

Demi wrote:

John Jones wrote:I've just logged on to this forum because something has been irritating me for a few weeks now. There is clearly something different about the 'shuffling' of the letters in this latest series.
Having got quite anal about it and actually counting the number of repeated consonants it peaked today when all bar one of the games had a repeated consonant. And that game had a repeated vowel, TWICE!
While I appreciate the chances of a repeated vowel are high, surely having a repeated consonant in almost every set of 9 is a bit more than a coincidence???

In which case, you may be pleased to hear that I'm being made redundant.

Really?

Demi, I hope you and the others are somehow able to keep your jobs, but if not I'm sure everyone on here who has been on the show is gutted for you. It would be a tragedy to break up such a great, friendly team of people. And your shuffling was fine by me!

I'm also in shock hearing this news! Demi will be a great loss to the team.

Damian, lighten up mate. There's been far worse messages on here to get your blood boiling.

Damo, I wouldn't worry about one whiny retarded message from some nobody who only logged on once. The Internet is full of idiots.

Demi, you will be much missed

D Eadie wrote:What on earth are you people talking about? You make my blood boil.

The selections are RANDOM for gods sake, of course you are going to get 3 of a kind etc - have you never heard of the game of poker? So EOE came out 3 times, there are more E's than any other vowel, its statistically going to happen. Don't be so naive and pathetic to blame the 'shuffler', its the same Demi who was 'shuffled' for 6 frigging years.

Its called randomisation. Do us a favour and get a life please. Wow, a repeated consonant. Call the police, march to Downing Street. Honestly, this is utterly pathetic. Pay no attention Demi. Some people just have no idea what they are talking about and shouldn't be allowed Internet access.

Damian, I appreciate you have had a rough week, but my comments about EOE were more relating to coincidence than a criticism of the shuffling, as I have no idea how the shuffling is done, but I do know there are only five vowels!

Anyway, while I have your attention how about you making a suggestion to the programme schedulers that when regular Countdown takes its summer break that they think about retransmitting the Champion of Champions or some other really classic games like they did for a while several years ago.

Our thoughts are with all the staff in these difficult times.

Ian Fitzpatrick wrote:

D Eadie wrote:What on earth are you people talking about? You make my blood boil.

The selections are RANDOM for gods sake, of course you are going to get 3 of a kind etc - have you never heard of the game of poker? So EOE came out 3 times, there are more E's than any other vowel, its statistically going to happen. Don't be so naive and pathetic to blame the 'shuffler', its the same Demi who was 'shuffled' for 6 frigging years.

Its called randomisation. Do us a favour and get a life please. Wow, a repeated consonant. Call the police, march to Downing Street. Honestly, this is utterly pathetic. Pay no attention Demi. Some people just have no idea what they are talking about and shouldn't be allowed Internet access.

Damian, I appreciate you have had a rough week, but my comments about EOE were more relating to coincidence than a criticism of the shuffling, as I have no idea how the shuffling is done, but I do know there are only five vowels!

Anyway, while I have your attention how about you making a suggestion to the programme schedulers that when regular Countdown takes its summer break that they think about retransmitting the Champion of Champions or some other really classic games like they did for a while several years ago.

Our thoughts are with all the staff in these difficult times.

My bad Ian. I'll get my gelcoat.

I'm pretty sure Damian was addressing John Jones, not Ian.

[quote="D Eadie" ...there are more E's than any other vowel.[/quote]
How many are there, then? - although I think 3 the same of each one occurs occasionally, (without digging into the archives) I don't recall having ever seen 4 E's.

I'm no expert in probability theory, but would not be surprised if it turned out that two the same in 3 vowels was more likely than all different - it's certainly the case for 4 or 5, given that there are at least two of each available.

Yeah it makes me think about online Scrabble games when a player complains that they have 5 E's on their first rack. That's the thing with random selections and a large number of games, you get some really weird letters from time to time. If you role a die 100 000 times it's not exactly unlikely that you're gonna get a sequence like 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6 just because there's been a large number of opportunities for it to occur. Just got my calculator out, 6^6 = 46 656 so you'd expect it about twice in that many throws, am I right?

Martin Gardner wrote:If you role a die 100 000 times it's not exactly unlikely that you're gonna get a sequence like 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6 just because there's been a large number of opportunities for it to occur. Just got my calculator out, 6^6 = 46 656 so you'd expect it about twice in that many throws, am I right?

This is not unlike the sequence in Derren Brown's TV show The System where he tossed a coin ten times in a row and it came down heads each time. It actually took something like 16 hours and thousands of tosses to achieve, but (like the race-betting "system" that was the main thrust of the programme) was designed to show how people will believe in all kinds of claptrap (ghosts, telepathy, religion etc) based on "evidence" that owes more to our skewed ideas about probability.

Phil Reynolds wrote:

Martin Gardner wrote:If you role a die 100 000 times it's not exactly unlikely that you're gonna get a sequence like 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6 just because there's been a large number of opportunities for it to occur. Just got my calculator out, 6^6 = 46 656 so you'd expect it about twice in that many throws, am I right?

This is not unlike the sequence in Derren Brown's TV show The System where he tossed a coin ten times in a row and it came down heads each time. It actually took something like 16 hours and thousands of tosses to achieve, but (like the race-betting "system" that was the main thrust of the programme) was designed to show how people will believe in all kinds of claptrap (ghosts, telepathy, religion etc) based on "evidence" that owes more to our skewed ideas about probability.

I saw that too, and I'd be very surprised if he actually did waste 16 hours or whatever filming that segment. The screen was cut into two halves, one half showing him tossing (snigger) and the other showing a close-up of the tray so we could see the outcome of the toss (snigger). I couldn't see any reason why they couldn't just splice in 10 successful tosses into the second half, without it affecting the point he was making.

Jon Corby wrote:I saw that too, and I'd be very surprised if he actually did waste 16 hours or whatever filming that segment. The screen was cut into two halves, one half showing him tossing (snigger) and the other showing a close-up of the tray so we could see the outcome of the toss (snigger). I couldn't see any reason why they couldn't just splice in 10 successful tosses into the second half, without it affecting the point he was making.

It would be a bit weird to make such a lie. I know he's a magician and he bends the truth but I don't think he normally faces the camera and tells an out and out lie.

Gavin Chipper wrote:It would be a bit weird to make such a lie. I know he's a magician and he bends the truth but I don't think he normally faces the camera and tells an out and out lie.

But how would you know...?