c4countdown

Can Islam be integrated into a multi-faith culture, or are the two things mutually incompatible? Does "Islamophobia" exist, or is it a reaction by normally tolerant people to a ideology in direct opposition with their own? Does "Islamophilia" (by which I mean concentrating on the good aspects of Islam) exist and if so, how is it expressed? Is it honest? Is either position honest?

I feel very unqualified to judge Islam. I would not describe myself as an Islamophile by any particular definition but I do sway far more to that than Islamophobia. I see lots of other people on the tube looking Muslim guys up and down and giving off much discomfort. Anyone with a beard, anyone looking at Arabic text on their phones, people seem to now be programmed to think the worst. You can kind of see in their eyes and faces they are thinking to themselves "god I'm terrible. I really am not racist but I'm still wondering...". It kind of feels like my duty as a normal nice person to put a little extra effort into smiling and being generally warm. Maybe that's over-sympathetic to the point of being racist in itself. But I have no idea because I know nothing.

Some people use it as an excuse for cuntery and some people use it as a movement for peace. But does it have to objectively be one of these things? What it definitely is though is another bullshit religion (because they all are) that encourages people to believe what they read in an ancient text (whatever interpretation they take from that - peaceful or otherwise) rather than try and find out what the world is about through science and reason. And therefore it is a bad thing.

Can it be integrated into a multi-faith culture? Well, it depends on the people and the arbitrary interpretations they take from their faith. Some people calling themselves Muslims and people calling themselves e.g. Christians can integrate perfectly well, but others can't. And there will always be a problem when people use some old text as the arbiter of what is right.

As for "Islamophobia" - what does that even mean? I hate Islam, but I don't hate individual Muslims.

So that's that.

I admire your efforts to stoke debate on here, Jim. So:

- I think so. (I can't find anything to suggest that Sarajevo ♥♥♥, for example, which has a fairly even split between Muslims and Christians, has any real issues now with religious differences. Admittedly that may be because other post-war divides in society take precedence over religious ones.)

- Yes, people too often conflate the religious practices of a state (/terrorist organisations) and the religious practices of individuals. You've got tabloids misrepresenting individuals' beliefs like The Sun's '1 in 5 Muslims' poll and putting it on the front page - even if under 2 million people buy the paper each day, millions more are exposed to the front pages by their exposure on TV, newsstands and in shops. And it's just part of a constant barrage of anti-Islamic front pages from national papers. Attacks on Muslims are hugely up in the UK, US and France post-Paris: I don't think stuff like this demonstrates the behaviour of 'normally tolerant people' to problematic aspects of Islam either in the Qu'ran or in repressive Muslim states.

- Sort of, but mostly as a reactionary measure to counteract the exposure of misleading or bigoted commentary. A good example would be the myth of Zouheir post-Paris, where people leapt on the story of the good Muslim fending off the bad Muslims even though it was completely misrendered version of events. This video went viral last week, which is perhaps more helpful, although it would've been more accurate to have summarised by saying "While there's loads of horrible shit in the Qu'ran, there's just as much of it in the Bible" so that it doesn't whitewash the fact that neither is superior. I'm not sure 'Islamophilia' is a helpful term for it; it implies a complete defence of everything Islamic, whereas I think most people who are prone to this (bloody do-gooding SJWs!!!) abhor state oppression of women/homosexuality and censorship.

- Trying to paint a billion people as totally good or bad is obviously never going to be completely honest.

I kind of agree with Gev, although he's been a bit brutal in his condemnation of religion. Much as I despair of it, it is of great comfort and peace to millions of people, which is a good thing if a) they're not using their views to be obnoxious to others, and b) religion is completely separate from the state.

Jennifer Steadman wrote:I kind of agree with Gev, although he's been a bit brutal in his condemnation of religion. Much as I despair of it, it is of great comfort and peace to millions of people, which is a good thing if a) they're not using their views to be obnoxious to others, and b) religion is completely separate from the state.

Couldn't agree more, particularly on (b).

However, I do get a bit agitated when evangelical people parade their religion as though it is more deserving of attention than anything else. I mean, one time me and my friend Helen took acid and swore blind we saw this evil cat in a turned-over dustbin when we were walking home, but we didn't make a religion out of it.

I must have read SJW a hundred times and I've never been able to work out what it means. I'm resisting Googling it, but also resisting putting much effort into working it out. I vaguely know what an SJW is without knowing the actual abbreviation. Please don't tell me.

Jennifer Steadman wrote:I kind of agree with Gev, although he's been a bit brutal in his condemnation of religion. Much as I despair of it, it is of great comfort and peace to millions of people, which is a good thing if a) they're not using their views to be obnoxious to others, and b) religion is completely separate from the state.

Saying I hate Islam (along with all other religions of course - Islam isn't special) might be a bit strong, but I certainly dislike that people today still follow religions. It might be a source of comfort for people, but realising it's wrong and finding out about alternatives can be just as comforting. I find it hard to believe that it needs to be specifically a religion that comforts them.