c4countdown

Gavin Chipper wrote:

Charlie Reams wrote:

Gavin Chipper wrote:The A in GATE is a diphthong and GATE is certainly one syllable, but there is certainly something extra in FRAIL. I would call that something extra a syllable. I suppose it comes down to your definitions, but if syllable means what I think it does, FRAIL has two of those.

Unless you speak a totally different kind of English to me, the A in GATE is not a diphthong. But that native speakers even need this debate suggests that the ODE needs to be clearer.

Really? I must speak a totally different kind of English to you. The A in GATE (in my language) is not a single "pure" sound like the A in CAT.

The 'A' in GATE is the diphthong 'ei'. I had to write a riveting paper on the subject as part of my English degree. My tutor was an OED lexicographer who described himself as "too ugly for dictionary corner"!

Mike, thank your for your very informative post.

(I realise what distinguished company I'm in, but I will wade in regardless... !)

It's good that the trend is now towards allowing more "sensible pluralisations" of mass nouns. As it is so subjective, my point was, really, wouldn't it be better to allow them all? Even taking Charlie's examples - could an archaeologist not talk about two eras of 'mankind' with different characteristics as being 'mankinds'? What if "human life" is found on another planet in another solar system (as some astrophysicists think likely to exist)? 'Gunfire' is a bit more difficult, I admit - but could two episodes of gunfire during a battle not be referred to as 'gunfires'? Of course in these cases the plurals would stand for "kinds of - " or "episodes of - " - but we love to abbreviate. I do not see that there is anything intrinsically "wrong" in the pluralisation of mass nouns - it just depends on the context (and, I agree, the contexts above are a bit far-fetched!).

Lucy Gowers wrote:The 'A' in GATE is the diphthong 'ei'. I had to write a riveting paper on the subject as part of my English degree. My tutor was an OED lexicographer who described himself as "too ugly for dictionary corner"!

Hum. I guess I don't understand what a diphthong is then. Can you elaborate?

John Douglas wrote:Mike, thank your for your very informative post.

(I realise what distinguished company I'm in, but I will wade in regardless... !)

It's good that the trend is now towards allowing more "sensible pluralisations" of mass nouns.

... lots of interesting stuff about the plurals of MANKIND and GUNFIRE ...

Feel free to wade in, John! I think to sum up what I personally think: we have to bear in mind that Countdown is first and foremost a TV programme, and it would probably generate complaints from viewers if it started to allow such seemingly nonsensical words as MANKINDS on a regular basis - a bit like the case for disallowing American spellings. (Actually, they get my goat anyway - every time I see colour without the 'u', my blood pressure rises!)

Floopy.

Edit: Oh, I missed the word "rules" in the thread title.

As for diphthongs, as I understand it, being a Yorkshireman with a funny accent, I don't use a diphthong for words such as "gate". Is that correct Lucy?

Charlie Reams wrote:

Lucy Gowers wrote:The 'A' in GATE is the diphthong 'ei'. I had to write a riveting paper on the subject as part of my English degree. My tutor was an OED lexicographer who described himself as "too ugly for dictionary corner"!

Hum. I guess I don't understand what a diphthong is then. Can you elaborate?

Sure.

It’s all about gliding tongues. We articulate vowels by shaping the tongue in the mouth. A diphthong consists of the tongue gliding from one vowel position to a second vowel position in a single syllable so as to produce one continuous sound.

There’s six diphthongs in English: the sound found in eye, tired and hide; the sound in how, out and bowed; the sound in gate and hay; the sound in boat and no; the sound in boy and the sound in fury and pure.

Mike, I take your point.
Thanks!

Ian Volante wrote:
As for diphthongs, as I understand it, being a Yorkshireman with a funny accent, I don't use a diphthong for words such as "gate". Is that correct Lucy?

Absolutely right, Ian. I'm originally from Durham and we Mackems don't hold with diphthongal pronunciations for words like gate either. But I've lived in the South for over 20 years so I speak with a dull, characterless RP accent now.

Lucy Gowers wrote:

Charlie Reams wrote:

Lucy Gowers wrote:The 'A' in GATE is the diphthong 'ei'. I had to write a riveting paper on the subject as part of my English degree. My tutor was an OED lexicographer who described himself as "too ugly for dictionary corner"!

Hum. I guess I don't understand what a diphthong is then. Can you elaborate?

Sure.

It’s all about gliding tongues. We articulate vowels by shaping the tongue in the mouth. A diphthong consists of the tongue gliding from one vowel position to a second vowel position in a single syllable so as to produce one continuous sound

That's pretty much what I thought, but I tried saying GATE earlier and couldn't feel my tongue moving. But I just spent a few happy minutes saying GATE with my finger in my mouth, and now I think I agree with you.

Charlie Reams wrote:That's pretty much what I thought, but I tried saying GATE earlier and couldn't feel my tongue moving. But I just spent a few happy minutes saying GATE with my finger in my mouth, and now I think I agree with you.

Yeah, "finger". Right.

Lucy Gowers wrote:and the sound in fury and pure.

Really? When I say it, PURE = P - Y - some lengthened vowel sound that is unchanging.

Lucy Gowers wrote:

Ian Volante wrote:
As for diphthongs, as I understand it, being a Yorkshireman with a funny accent, I don't use a diphthong for words such as "gate". Is that correct Lucy?

Absolutely right, Ian. I'm originally from Durham and we Mackems don't hold with diphthongal pronunciations for words like gate either. But I've lived in the South for over 20 years so I speak with a dull, characterless RP accent now.

A Mackem from Durham? Haway, now I'm confused...