c4countdown

The Assassanation attempt on Trump was stage managed

Unpopular opinions / full-on conspiracy theories

"you genuinely hold"

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 7:35 pm Unpopular opinions / full-on conspiracy theories

The plot thickens as the would was caused by glass according to the Doctor.
Unless the autocue got hit.
Also the shooter was on the opposite side to trumps wounded ear

Marc, dude, don't do this. It wasn't staged or managed. It happened.

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 9:23 pm Also the shooter was on the opposite side to trumps wounded ear

No, he wasn't.

https://x.com/LibertyLockPod/status/1812379450144670073

Hope he stuck a tenner on his prediction

Mark Deeks wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 9:33 pm Marc, dude, don't do this. It wasn't staged or managed. It happened.

When I watched it in real-time I found it incredible that after shots were fired Trump got up , fist pumping and (Nazi ) saluting .
I mean when I trip over it takes me 5 minutes to get up

The secret service shouldn't have let him get up until the all clear.

I'm not surprised conspiracy theories have had a lot of traction.
Though the ones where it's suggested Biden arranged this is more ridiculous than mine which to be honest is just me yanking people's chain.
See also fake moon landing
Diana's death etc

will just leave this here in case anyone else somehow believes the trump shooting thing was some set-up or something:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

What if the Farage milkshake incident was stage managed? That's next level.

Gnocchi is disgusting.

Callum Todd wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:28 pm will just leave this here in case anyone else somehow believes the trump shooting thing was some set-up or something:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

I think it's pretty the funny the number of people who usually (probably quite rightly) scoff at conspiracy theorists that suddenly become conspiracy theorists themselves when the theory is against somebody/something they hate.

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:36 pm What if the Farage milkshake incident was stage managed? That's next level.

Nah it didn't work last time

Callum Todd wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:28 pm will just leave this here in case anyone else somehow believes the trump shooting thing was some set-up or something:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Zebra.

Occams Razor didn't help the sub-postmasters much

Philip A wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:40 pm Gnocchi is disgusting.

Yeah, I know. I was offered some gnocchi the other day but I declined it. Not sure why they wanted me to go their bedroom for it either.

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 7:27 pm Occams Razor didn't help the sub-postmasters much

Indeed. Can anyone explain to me in simple terms what was wrong with the Horizon system. If you sell someone £10 worth of stamps, there is £10 more in the till, and £10 worth fewer stamps. If the system is telling you there should be £20 in the till and £20 worth fewer stamps, you see it's wrong immediately you count the stamps. If it's telling you that you should have made £10 profit over face value selling a few stamps, that surely shows up pretty quickly. It only takes one sub-postmaster to actually write down every transaction on paper and see how his records compare to the system to show what the issues are.

I've always had the feeling that if I'd been a Post Office Executive I'd have got this totally wrong. This may have been a bespoke system, but Fujitsu surely used the underlying software for lots of other systems, so why would it be just ours that didn't work?

Neither Israel nor Palestine are the 'good' guys or the 'bad' guys. They've both done bad things and innocent lives are being lost in both countries. There's far more nuance to it than there is with the Russia-Ukraine war.

David Williams wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:07 am

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 7:27 pm Occams Razor didn't help the sub-postmasters much

Indeed. Can anyone explain to me in simple terms what was wrong with the Horizon system. If you sell someone £10 worth of stamps, there is £10 more in the till, and £10 worth fewer stamps. If the system is telling you there should be £20 in the till and £20 worth fewer stamps, you see it's wrong immediately you count the stamps. If it's telling you that you should have made £10 profit over face value selling a few stamps, that surely shows up pretty quickly. It only takes one sub-postmaster to actually write down every transaction on paper and see how his records compare to the system to show what the issues are.

I've always had the feeling that if I'd been a Post Office Executive I'd have got this totally wrong. This may have been a bespoke system, but Fujitsu surely used the underlying software for lots of other systems, so why would it be just ours that didn't work?

From some digging, the problem was that there were _lots_ of errors - and if someone did find a definite issue Horizon might just fix it for that postmaster rather than digging in and fixing more fully.

There were basic bugs like rounding errors and data corruption, and more complicated ones when syncing between the post office and the central system (which is to be fair really hard, but also solved many times already).

The problem was also that differences would be identified at the end of the day, week or month. So at that point you're digging through many transactions - which some people did and found issues, but couldn't prove that their records were right compared to Fujitsu's.

In terms of the development of it, it sounds like Fujitsu wrote rubbish code on top of a rubbish existing product. And everyone in the company were aware of how bad the team who made it were.

This is the best non-technical article I've found describing some of the above: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... -breakdown

Christy Cooper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2024 9:45 am Neither Israel nor Palestine are the 'good' guys or the 'bad' guys. They've both done bad things and innocent lives are being lost in both countries. There's far more nuance to it than there is with the Russia-Ukraine war.

Sure. The victims are the civilians of both places. Both Hamas and the Israeli government are essentially terrorist organisations.

By the way, on the conspiracy theory thing, it's not simply that we should automatically believe the official line on any issue. We have to decide on a case-by-case basis whether something is a realistic alternative explanation. The Wuhan lab leak theory was originally seen by many as a wacko conspiracy theory but as time went on, more people saw that it wasn't so outlandish. I see no particular reason why someone must come down definitely on one side over this.

Strictly Come Dancing should now be shelved.

Philip A wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 12:30 pm Strictly Come Dancing should now be shelved.

It needs a break like Dancing on Ice did.
Then revamp it in 5 years.
Bring The Generation Game back instead

Thomas Cappleman wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2024 10:07 am

David Williams wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2024 9:07 am

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 7:27 pm Occams Razor didn't help the sub-postmasters much

Indeed. Can anyone explain to me in simple terms what was wrong with the Horizon system. If you sell someone £10 worth of stamps, there is £10 more in the till, and £10 worth fewer stamps. If the system is telling you there should be £20 in the till and £20 worth fewer stamps, you see it's wrong immediately you count the stamps. If it's telling you that you should have made £10 profit over face value selling a few stamps, that surely shows up pretty quickly. It only takes one sub-postmaster to actually write down every transaction on paper and see how his records compare to the system to show what the issues are.

I've always had the feeling that if I'd been a Post Office Executive I'd have got this totally wrong. This may have been a bespoke system, but Fujitsu surely used the underlying software for lots of other systems, so why would it be just ours that didn't work?

From some digging, the problem was that there were _lots_ of errors - and if someone did find a definite issue Horizon might just fix it for that postmaster rather than digging in and fixing more fully.

There were basic bugs like rounding errors and data corruption, and more complicated ones when syncing between the post office and the central system (which is to be fair really hard, but also solved many times already).

The problem was also that differences would be identified at the end of the day, week or month. So at that point you're digging through many transactions - which some people did and found issues, but couldn't prove that their records were right compared to Fujitsu's.

In terms of the development of it, it sounds like Fujitsu wrote rubbish code on top of a rubbish existing product. And everyone in the company were aware of how bad the team who made it were.

This is the best non-technical article I've found describing some of the above: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... -breakdown

Thanks for that. It's the best (only?) explanation I've seen. Still don't really get it though.

For example, as far as I know the system worked fine for the vast majority of sub-postmasters. How come?

If the system apparently freezes, but records a cash amount every time you press "Enter", you're going to have half a dozen identical cash entries consecutively within a couple of minutes.

If the system duplicates transactions, you get duplicate transactions. It's all very well saying that the sub-postmasters were held responsible, but if you're going to have to stand up in court and say that several identical transactions took place one after the other, and you have no record of any of the services being actually delivered except for the first, you surely back down pretty quickly.

The only transactions I can think of that would be difficult are foreign currency, where the price fluctuates daily. But that's just as likely to be over as under. Rounding differences are insignificant.

You do sort of get the impression that there are still those in the Post Office who think that the fact that the system was crap doesn't mean the sub-postmasters weren't guilty. An opinion that definitely belongs here!

Bugs can be tricky. I remember reading a thread about a bug that only happened on Wednesday afternoons (nothing to do with post office, but a good example). Can't find the link now but from memory there was a (different) bug that occasionally happened, but when it did, it got recorded in a log file and the system carried on working. But occasionally the system crashed spectacularly.

It turned out that the code that trapped the first bug was writing a date/time stamp to the logfile that included the day of the week. The field was one character too short, so if the occasional bug happened on a Wednesday afternoon, the whole system came down. It took them months to realise the pattern and track it down.

Thinking of a bug from my own experience - user reported that when he deleted data from a field it reappeared next time he accessed the record. I tried to reproduce it and failed. Again after several weeks we realised he was using the del key whereas all my attempts to reproduce had used backspace.

Throw in dozens or even hundreds of different bugs and it can be very particular sets of circumstances that cause the bug to manifest.

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 5:39 pm

Philip A wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 12:30 pm Strictly Come Dancing should now be shelved.

It needs a break like Dancing on Ice did.
Then revamp it in 5 years.
Bring The Generation Game back instead

OK, here's an opinion - the idea of watching C-list celebrities trying to learn how to dance and competing against each other (and one of the judges gains wider recognition just for saying "seven" - you couldn't make it up) is basically the lowest of the lowbrow ideas for a television programme, and the fact that such a concept has lasted 20-odd years is a damning indictment on the British public.

If it had been pitched alongside monkey tennis, it would not have been out of place.

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 11:56 am

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 5:39 pm

Philip A wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 12:30 pm Strictly Come Dancing should now be shelved.

It needs a break like Dancing on Ice did.
Then revamp it in 5 years.
Bring The Generation Game back instead

OK, here's an opinion - the idea of watching C-list celebrities trying to learn how to dance and competing against each other (and one of the judges gains wider recognition just for saying "seven" - you couldn't make it up) is basically the lowest of the lowbrow ideas for a television programme, and the fact that such a concept has lasted 20-odd years is a damning indictment on the British public.

If it had been pitched alongside monkey tennis, it would not have been out of place.

Tbh , X Factor , BGT and IACGMOOH to name but 3 all need scrapping .
I mean we are in Monkey tennis territory with The Great Sewing Bee , Pottery and other art classes turned TV shows.
If you are going to get C list celebrities to try stuff how about stand up comedy or a war Correspondant in Gaza.
I'd pay to see that

Apparently on Dancing On Ice, all celebrities are physically and psychologically assessed before they are deemed eligible to participate. Strictly doesn’t.

Philip A wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 1:58 pm Apparently on Dancing On Ice, all celebrities are physically and psychologically assessed before they are deemed eligible to participate. Strictly doesn’t.

Not sure how Gemma Collins got through the test then.

The Eurosport commentator Bob Ballard should not have been sacked for his stupid joke/remark.

Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2024 5:24 pm The Eurosport commentator Bob Ballard should not have been sacked for his stupid joke/remark.

Definitely not , a sexist joke at best.
I can't imagine any woman being offended by the stereotype.
An apology is the most he should have done

If your child partner or relative have a severe allergy don't eat or drink anything that you haven't made or supervised yourself
It's tragic that young Hannah died after a severe reaction to a hot chocolate made by Costa Coffee.
Bit I'm inclined to point the finger at the mother

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2024 5:26 pm If your child partner or relative have a severe allergy don't eat or drink anything that you haven't made or supervised yourself
It's tragic that young Hannah died after a severe reaction to a hot chocolate made by Costa Coffee.
Bit I'm inclined to point the finger at the mother

I have a mild (makes me sick but doesn't make my throat close up or anything) nut allergy. Even so, everywhere I go or everything I eat, I always, always check or ask about allergens. Always. It takes 10 seconds and is always worth it.

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2024 5:26 pm If your child partner or relative have a severe allergy don't eat or drink anything that you haven't made or supervised yourself
It's tragic that young Hannah died after a severe reaction to a hot chocolate made by Costa Coffee.
Bit I'm inclined to point the finger at the mother

No. People with allergies and other disabilities, should have a right to go about their lives as anyone else would. Allergen checking is not strenuous. From what it sounds like, the mum tried to make sure the best she could that it was safe. It's not her fault-at all.

Matt Rutherford wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2024 7:02 pm

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2024 5:26 pm If your child partner or relative have a severe allergy don't eat or drink anything that you haven't made or supervised yourself
It's tragic that young Hannah died after a severe reaction to a hot chocolate made by Costa Coffee.
Bit I'm inclined to point the finger at the mother

No. People with allergies and other disabilities, should have a right to go about their lives as anyone else would. Allergen checking is not strenuous. From what it sounds like, the mum tried to make sure the best she could that it was safe. It's not her fault-at all.

I don't think I would trust what's on a package if I had a serious allergy .
We had some chocolate cupcakes at work and the suppliers informed us that there was some cross contamination with the coffee and walnut ones.
We ended up wasting 20 as a precaution even though my suggestion of relabelled with "contains nuts" falling on death ears.

I'd sooner watch a dvd of a favourite band live when they were at their best than pay to watch them reform after 20 years.
Yes I know I sound like a hypocrite watching Paul McCartney in December but he can't reform his best band ( Linda is dead and I'm not sure about Denny Laine )
Plus you wouldn't hear the Beatles properly when they were live (apart from the rooftop )

Sportsmen/women shouldn't be awarded knighthoods/damehoods simply for being good at their sport. Also, they should never be awarded them whilst still competing at their sport.

Paul Worsley wrote: ↑Fri Oct 25, 2024 9:32 am Sportsmen/women shouldn't be awarded knighthoods/damehoods simply for being good at their sport. Also, they should never be awarded them whilst still competing at their sport.

I agree with the second part.
But if they have performed exceptionally well in their field then why not.
I guess some get their gongs whilst still competing is the same as Musicians and actors really

The whole honours system needs scrapping. Sportspeople are just one tiny aspect along with other celebrities like actors and singers. Politicians and donors are the worst.

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2024 5:47 am But if they have performed exceptionally well in their field then why not.

Because that's what they were trying to do anyway.

If they later turn out to be great ambassadors for the game, then fair enough. Sir Bobby Charlton springs to mind.

Paul Worsley wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2024 10:24 am

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sat Oct 26, 2024 5:47 am But if they have performed exceptionally well in their field then why not.

Because that's what they were trying to do anyway.

If they later turn out to be great ambassadors for the game, then fair enough. Sir Bobby Charlton springs to mind.

I am happier with sportsmen and women winning rather than cronyism from politicians

Delay the clocks going back for another month minimum.
Though personally I would scrap it competely

Football matches to play 2 x 45 minute halves without any injury time and the wasted time to accrue and a period of 'overtime to be played after 90 minutes with 5 minutes rest beforehand
This will make sure all second halves of matches start simultaneously and there is a suitable break between full time and,injury time.
Adverts can play on live televised games ( the BBC can cut to Gary ) during this break and the allotted time should only be extended beyond the designated time if an injury takes place

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2024 9:46 am Football matches to play 2 x 45 minute halves without any injury time and the wasted time to accrue and a period of 'overtime to be played after 90 minutes with 5 minutes rest beforehand
This will make sure all second halves of matches start simultaneously and there is a suitable break between full time and,injury time.
Adverts can play on live televised games ( the BBC can cut to Gary ) during this break and the allotted time should only be extended beyond the designated time if an injury takes place

This is definitely one of those cases where someone says something so fundamentally wrong you don’t know how to argue against it.

David Harrison wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 3:22 pm

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2024 9:46 am Football matches to play 2 x 45 minute halves without any injury time and the wasted time to accrue and a period of 'overtime to be played after 90 minutes with 5 minutes rest beforehand
This will make sure all second halves of matches start simultaneously and there is a suitable break between full time and,injury time.
Adverts can play on live televised games ( the BBC can cut to Gary ) during this break and the allotted time should only be extended beyond the designated time if an injury takes place

This is definitely one of those cases where someone says something so fundamentally wrong you don’t know how to argue against it.

You would have said that about VAR 10 years ago and yet here we are

I would stop the clock every time the ball goes out of play so the game time is the actual amount of time played. I would reduce the time from 90 minutes though so games don't suddenly get longer. According to this BBC page the ball is in play for about 57 minutes on average (in the Championship), so you could just have the official time as 60 minutes.

It's a bit of a joke that the length of a football match is made up on the day. Imagine an F1 race where they just announce an extra lap at the end of the race.

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:06 pm

David Harrison wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 3:22 pm

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sun Oct 27, 2024 9:46 am Football matches to play 2 x 45 minute halves without any injury time and the wasted time to accrue and a period of 'overtime to be played after 90 minutes with 5 minutes rest beforehand
This will make sure all second halves of matches start simultaneously and there is a suitable break between full time and,injury time.
Adverts can play on live televised games ( the BBC can cut to Gary ) during this break and the allotted time should only be extended beyond the designated time if an injury takes place

This is definitely one of those cases where someone says something so fundamentally wrong you don’t know how to argue against it.

You would have said that about VAR 10 years ago and yet here we are

I’ve advocated VAR since 27th June 2010.

There's only one day in a season when games kick off simultaneously. And if you're telling the typical supporter that he's going to miss his train home because there's been a floodlight failure at Brentford and we've got to wait for them to catch up, I agree that this would be an unpopular opinion.
American football lasts for sixty minutes with ball "in play", but because the clock doesn't actually stop when people are tackled there's an average of only 11 minutes of actual play, but a game takes over three hours. Not for me.

David Williams wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 3:08 pm There's only one day in a season when games kick off simultaneously. And if you're telling the typical supporter that he's going to miss his train home because there's been a floodlight failure at Brentford and we've got to wait for them to catch up, I agree that this would be an unpopular opinion.
American football lasts for sixty minutes with ball "in play", but because the clock doesn't actually stop when people are tackled there's an average of only 11 minutes of actual play, but a game takes over three hours. Not for me.

The simultaneous thing is abut pointless these days anyway as in an age of 24/7 updates if someone wanted to fix a match based on the scores elsewhere it is pretty easy to keep an eye on scores elsewhere.

David Harrison wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 2:21 pm

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:06 pm

David Harrison wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 3:22 pm


This is definitely one of those cases where someone says something so fundamentally wrong you don’t know how to argue against it.

You would have said that about VAR 10 years ago and yet here we are

I’ve advocated VAR since 27th June 2010.

Was that the day of Lampards disallowed goal ?
More an argument for goal line technology than VAR.
Anything that isn't absolute is always dodgy in my eyes.
AI off sides need introduction but everything VAR related feels corrupt

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:16 pm

David Harrison wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 2:21 pm

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:06 pm
You would have said that about VAR 10 years ago and yet here we are

I’ve advocated VAR since 27th June 2010.

Was that the day of Lampards disallowed goal ?
More an argument for goal line technology than VAR.
Anything that isn't absolute is always dodgy in my eyes.
AI off sides need introduction but everything VAR related feels corrupt

Yes.

VAR, when used properly, is an excellent innovation imo.

David Harrison wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 6:27 pm

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:16 pm

David Harrison wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 2:21 pm
I’ve advocated VAR since 27th June 2010.

Was that the day of Lampards disallowed goal ?
More an argument for goal line technology than VAR.
Anything that isn't absolute is always dodgy in my eyes.
AI off sides need introduction but everything VAR related feels corrupt

Yes.

VAR, when used properly, is an excellent innovation imo.

Apart from City and Liverpool fans I would argue it doesn't get used properly.
Take the NON red card for the United player today

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 9:02 pm

David Harrison wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 6:27 pm

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:16 pm
Was that the day of Lampards disallowed goal ?
More an argument for goal line technology than VAR.
Anything that isn't absolute is always dodgy in my eyes.
AI off sides need introduction but everything VAR related feels corrupt

Yes.

VAR, when used properly, is an excellent innovation imo.

Apart from City and Liverpool fans I would argue it doesn't get used properly.
Take the NON red card for the United player today

It wasn't a red

Paul Worsley wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 1:58 am

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 9:02 pm

David Harrison wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 6:27 pm
Yes.

VAR, when used properly, is an excellent innovation imo.

Apart from City and Liverpool fans I would argue it doesn't get used properly.
Take the NON red card for the United player today

It wasn't a red

Let's rephrase it , if Reece James had done the same to Fernandez would it still have been a yellow.
We wouldn't have needed VAR as it would have been a straight red

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:24 am

Paul Worsley wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 1:58 am

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2024 9:02 pm

Apart from City and Liverpool fans I would argue it doesn't get used properly.
Take the NON red card for the United player today

It wasn't a red

Let's rephrase it , if Reece James had done the same to Fernandez would it still have been a yellow.
We wouldn't have needed VAR as it would have been a straight red

You can rephrase it all you like. It wasn't a red card.

Paul Worsley wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 10:09 am

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:24 am

Paul Worsley wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2024 1:58 am

It wasn't a red

Let's rephrase it , if Reece James had done the same to Fernandez would it still have been a yellow.
We wouldn't have needed VAR as it would have been a straight red

You can rephrase it all you like. It wasn't a red card.

Semantics , shemantics

Donald Trump winning the US election is precisely the kick up the arse that the woke left needs...
Let's hope the democrats and other similar groups worldwide -even down to something as insignificant as our own FOCAL- take a long hard look at their priorities in the coming years.

L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 7:57 pm Donald Trump winning the US election is precisely the kick up the arse that the woke left needs...
Let's hope the democrats and other similar groups worldwide -even down to something as insignificant as our own FOCAL- take a long hard look at their priorities in the coming years.

I can handle the Democrats losing but I hope after Trump pardons himself he let's the hillbilly take over

I think there should be an upper age limit of 70 for leaders of the free world

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 8:03 pm I think there should be an upper age limit of 70 for leaders of the free world

There is a good reason that "old" and "wise" are often put together.
Better a leader that is "too old" than "too young".

Philip A wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:40 pm Gnocchi is disgusting.

True.
As I always say, why eat something gnocchi, when you could have something gnice?

L'oisleatch McGraw wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 9:20 pm

Marc Meakin wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 8:03 pm I think there should be an upper age limit of 70 for leaders of the free world

There is a good reason that "old" and "wise" are often put together.
Better a leader that is "too old" than "too young".

Biden 2028?