Re: Riots
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:07 pm
Oh, and there are loads of people in the town centre playing medieval instruments really badly. Will this mindless luting never end?
A group for contestants and lovers of the Channel 4 game show 'Countdown'.
http://c4countdown.co.uk/
Maybe I don't but I've seen bouncers getting rushed by guys the same size as them and yet they didn't throw punches. They used grappling techniques to keep the attackers arms at bay and get them on the ground and subdued. Are you saying the police in riot armour were required to repeatedly baton a kid whose hands were in a defensive position?Jon Corby wrote:You haven't got the slightest clue what's required.
I did say I don't read newspapers but did I say I don't watch the news? I'll retract that if I did. I hardly ever watch the news is more accurate and if I do its more that I happen to be in the room where someone else is watching it. I check the teletext from time to time too. And I could also have found out about them here couldn't I?Jon Corby wrote: And I mean particularly you, Mr "I don't watch the news or read newspapers", as is evidenced by your next paragraph. How do you even know about these riots? They're not happening in your bedroom.
Two points here. Number one. My saying "you shouldn't treat 7 year old girls and 27 year old women any differently" was kind of taken out of context. I find it hard to explain exactly what I mean by it so I'm happy to retract that too.Jon Corby wrote: I've thought you were a total moron since you exploded onto the scene with "you shouldn't treat 7 year old girls and 27 year old women any differently", and you've done precisely nothing in the interim to make me reconsider that opinion.
I don't think you'd have to look very far to find me being called names, but that's by-the-by. This discussion has actually made me genuinely angry (which could well be a first for this forum) and I shouldn't have taken it out on you like that, so I apologise.Mark James wrote:Number 2. If you think I'm a moron, fair enough, but during any of the discussions I've had with you I cant see any instance where anyone who disagrees with your position resorted to name calling, unlike yourself.
Do I get an apology forJon Corby wrote:so I apologise.
?Jon Corby wrote:you're an arseclown of the highest order.
Sure, you're only low/middle order tops.Jon O'Neill wrote:Do I get an apology for
?Jon Corby wrote:you're an arseclown of the highest order.
Accepted and appreciated.Jon Corby wrote:I don't think you'd have to look very far to find me being called names, but that's by-the-by. This discussion has actually made me genuinely angry (which could well be a first for this forum) and I shouldn't have taken it out on you like that, so I apologise.Mark James wrote:Number 2. If you think I'm a moron, fair enough, but during any of the discussions I've had with you I cant see any instance where anyone who disagrees with your position resorted to name calling, unlike yourself.
I definitely am taking a break from this now.
This explains a lot.Chris Corby wrote:As a former police officer
Talk me through this please. I see millions of pounds worth of damage. Homes, businesses (large and small) destroyed. Many injured, some dead. Totally innocent victims with lives destroyed. Plenty of others terrified, the streets awash with violence, looting on a large scale.Andy Wilson wrote:In a sense, i'm pretty happy that what happened this week happened.
People talk a lot about the consequences of having a disillusioned, disenfranchised underclass. If those consequences were, as they so far have been, not much worse than dirty looks from some oiks in a shopping centre then nothing would get done. But once people start smashing up shops then you might see politicians taking action. So if you're someone who'd like to see some action on that front, I can understand why you'd be happy about it (on balance). Sometimes Bad Things have to happen to get anything done. The Lusitania was a tragedy but I'm sure you can imagine how someone taking a long-term view would be happy about it.Jon Corby wrote:Talk me through this please. I see millions of pounds worth of damage. Homes, businesses (large and small) destroyed. Many injured, some dead. Totally innocent victims with lives destroyed. Plenty of others terrified, the streets awash with violence, looting on a large scale.Andy Wilson wrote:In a sense, i'm pretty happy that what happened this week happened.
What on earth are you happy about?
I thought you were asking why anyone would be happy about these events, and I tried to explain. If you don't want to understand, that's fine, although I do wonder why you asked. Maybe if you take off the veil of rage long enough to read what I wrote, you might spot that I deliberately didn't say that I was one of them (I'm not). But apparently it's only other people who are expected to read carefully,Jon Corby wrote:Haha, Charlie and his obvious compassion for the "underclass".
As for your other point,Jon Corby wrote:you utter hypocrite.
Hello tautology! If you mean poor people then, err, example?Jon Corby wrote:You don't have to look very far to find your own contempt for your inferiors
I was watching QI tonight and Stephen mentioned this. It's probably one of the reasons.Ryan Taylor wrote:What is annoying to see is how the ordinary citizen just stands back and watches it happen. There are plenty of videos circling the web of people just filming what is happening. Why the fuck are they filming it? Why aren't they trying to prevent the criminal acts?
I did say, 'In a sense'. I'm happy that class divide as an issue has been thrust to the forefront. I do at the same time find it all more than a little distressing. It's very sad to see it all unfolding from a distance. I am above all surprised that this is capable of happening in the UK, while still remaining fairly confused by the whole thing. It definitely hasn't fully sunk in yet and I don't understand it enough to talk about it in depth, I can only say how I feel about it. I think it's awesome that such a small group of people could cause so much trouble with so little organisation. We could really force important issues to be considered if we wanted to I think. Unfortunately the better educated are kept busy with work and the idle distractions of everyday life, as well as being better off so not really caring anyway. Isn't what is happening in the arab world this year amazing and inspiring? Isn't it sickening the gap between rich and poor?Jon Corby wrote: What on earth are you happy about?
They'll arrest you for gluing a TV to Parliament, you know.Rhys Benjamin wrote:I'd just like to say that I wasn't arrested, just on holiday and had the TV glued to BBC Parliament.
I forgot no-one's heard of BBC Parliament.Jennifer Steadman wrote:They'll arrest you for gluing a TV to Parliament, you know.Rhys Benjamin wrote:I'd just like to say that I wasn't arrested, just on holiday and had the TV glued to BBC Parliament.
sighRhys Benjamin wrote:I forgot no-one's heard of BBC Parliament.Jennifer Steadman wrote:They'll arrest you for gluing a TV to Parliament, you know.Rhys Benjamin wrote:I'd just like to say that I wasn't arrested, just on holiday and had the TV glued to BBC Parliament.
Sorry, I'm struggling with that in this country. Between say, Britain and Somalia? Yes, horrific. But in this country I've never seen a poor person without shoes or clothes, I've never seen anyone with famine-induced oedema, or any of the other things such horrific poverty brings.Andy Wilson wrote:Isn't it sickening the gap between rich and poor?
Got the paper this morning. Just got to the back of the sports page and found this.Andy Wilson wrote:I think it's funny that the likes of Wayne Rooney and Ferdinand, two working class boys done good and I suppose, symbols of the massive class divide, don't seem to appreciate that they are part of the problem, demanding such obscene amounts of money for their trade and living extravagant lifestyles.
They get paid a lot because a lot of people are willing to pay a lot of money to watch them be extremely good at something that hundreds of millions of people want to be good at. Seems reasonable to me.Andy Wilson wrote:I think it's funny that the likes of Wayne Rooney and Ferdinand, two working class boys done good and I suppose, symbols of the massive class divide, don't seem to appreciate that they are part of the problem, demanding such obscene amounts of money for their trade and living extravagant lifestyles.
And that's the lower paid ones!Andy Wilson wrote:They get paid a doctor's annual salary, per month!
That would be a good arguement accept, Rio Ferdinand has been a sack of shit for quite some time nowCharlie Reams wrote:They get paid a lot because a lot of people are willing to pay a lot of money to watch them be extremely good at something that hundreds of millions of people want to be good at. Seems reasonable to me.Andy Wilson wrote:I think it's funny that the likes of Wayne Rooney and Ferdinand, two working class boys done good and I suppose, symbols of the massive class divide, don't seem to appreciate that they are part of the problem, demanding such obscene amounts of money for their trade and living extravagant lifestyles.
A footballer brings pleasure to millions of people every week, how many doctors do that? I'm not sure I understand the comparison.Andy Wilson wrote:They get paid a doctor's annual salary, per month!
So is the money the only way of measuring how important something is?Andy Wilson wrote:It's an importance level thing. There's something not right about a person who saves penalties getting paid so much more than one who saves lives.
Yeah, fair enough - your early contributions to the thread give the impression that you sympathise with the rioters:Charlie Reams wrote:Maybe if you take off the veil of rage long enough to read what I wrote, you might spot that I deliberately didn't say that I was one of them (I'm not).
Charlie Reams wrote:Seems like a fair description of the police, yep.Andy Wilson wrote: I guess it boils down to scumbags spotting a free for all and having fck all else to do?
but then of course you do sayCharlie Reams wrote:What was it Malcolm X said? Chickens coming home to roost?
but fail to elaborate what you actually refer to, once the violence, looting and arson have been taken out of the picture. So actually, you're just sneering at all sides involved. Go you, we shouldn't have expected anything else really. It's odd - normally when people jump to conclusions with no real knowledge of a subject matter ("the police shouldn't do that, they should do this") you're only too quick to shut them up.Charlie Reams wrote:I don't defend the violence, looting or arson, but if you get distracted by that then you miss the serious part of what's happening.
Summary: yay terrorism!Andy Wilson wrote:...I think it's awesome that such a small group of people could cause so much trouble with so little organisation. We could really force important issues to be considered if we wanted to I think...
Translation: I'm off the rag.Jon Corby wrote:By the way, having had a long weekend off work (and therefore posting), I'm a little embarrassed at losing my rag in this thread, and certainly got way too personal with some people. Apologies all round for that, I've calmed down now.
At least you didn't resort to death threats.Jon Corby wrote:By the way, having had a long weekend off work (and therefore posting), I'm a little embarrassed at losing my rag in this thread, and certainly got way too personal with some people. Apologies all round for that, I've calmed down now.
I'm sure I've been accused of the same (or similar) so yeah, it's a bit of an eye-opener to be on the receiving end instead.Marc Meakin wrote:Btw, I'm a little suprised that you have only just noticed Charlies, erm, 'personality' trait,though for the most part he just sticks to goading hysterical women and me (no tautology comebacks, please)!!.
I see your point Andy but, if you wanted to be slightly facetious, you could make the argument that since prevention is better than cure and poor sanitation leads to disease, street cleaners and sewage workers do a more important job than doctors as they prevent people getting sick in the first place but that wouldn't be reflected in their salary compared to a doctor's.Andy Wilson wrote:It's an importance level thing. There's something not right about a person who saves penalties getting paid so much more than one who saves lives.
Interesting logic, you're certainly leading the field in ad hominems on this topic. I'll elaborate if you want though. On the one hand, I think police violence and malpractice have received a fairly muted reaction over the last few years, and so find it hard to be too sympathetic when that catches up to them. On the other hand, the looting was really punishing the wrong people (although I found the huge backlash of simplistic anti-looter sentiment interesting and didn't expect to see it reflected here) and I wouldn't condone that. If you consider this perspective to be sneering at everyone then I'm not sure what to tell you really. This thread mostly passed me by until it was already quite long, and the few posts I read suggested that main points had already been covered, so if my posts seem glib then it was probably motivated by that. But if you prefer to be insulting then that's fine with me.Jon Corby wrote:You fail to elaborate what you actually refer to, once the violence, looting and arson have been taken out of the picture. So actually, you're just sneering at all sides involved. Go you, we shouldn't have expected anything else really.
Yup, the Mike Tomlinson case was pretty disgraceful in that it took an American tourist to send a video to the Guardian for the matter to be investigated at all. I guess it is because the police attracts a few right-wing types who think that their uniform gives them a special privilege to act violently; behaviour which is condoned and even praised by some sections of the media. I would have said that they shouldn't all be tarred with the same brush and I know some thoroughly decent police officers, but since it seems okay for people in the media to tar everyone in certain groups with the same brush (youths/blacks/anyone who is not stupid enough to advocate any method other than violence and barbarism to solve a problem), I don't want to stoop down to the levels of these morons so I won't generalise.Charlie Reams wrote: On the one hand, I think police violence and malpractice have received a fairly muted reaction over the last few years, and so find it hard to be too sympathetic when that catches up to them.
Oliver Garner wrote:right-wing types who think that their uniform gives them a special privilege to act violently
Oliver Garner wrote:it seems okay for people in the media to tar everyone in certain groups with the same brush
Oliver Garner wrote:I don't want to stoop down to the levels of these morons so I won't generalise.
Generalising would be saying that all policemen are right-wing types .... . I didn't do this.David Williams wrote:Oliver Garner wrote:right-wing types who think that their uniform gives them a special privilege to act violentlyOliver Garner wrote:it seems okay for people in the media to tar everyone in certain groups with the same brushOliver Garner wrote:I don't want to stoop down to the levels of these morons so I won't generalise.
It would make more sense if the rioters were left extremists....Oliver Garner wrote:Generalising would be saying that all policemen are right-wing types .... . I didn't do this.David Williams wrote:Oliver Garner wrote:right-wing types who think that their uniform gives them a special privilege to act violentlyOliver Garner wrote:it seems okay for people in the media to tar everyone in certain groups with the same brushOliver Garner wrote:I don't want to stoop down to the levels of these morons so I won't generalise.
Apology accepted, you cunt.Charlie Reams wrote:But if you prefer to be insulting then that's fine with me.
It would make more sense if the rioters were left extremists....[/quote]Rhys Benjamin wrote: Generalising would be saying that all policemen are right-wing types .... . I didn't do this.
Shall I ignore the selfish, materialistic, individualist culture which was created by Thatcher as being a possible cause of the riots ?Rhys Benjamin wrote: It would make more sense if the rioters were left extremists....
Won't most things "mainly take place during the term of a Tory government", as they're in office more often than not?Marc Meakin wrote:Maybe we should discuss why rioting and looting mainly takes place during the term of a Tory government!
Oliver Garner wrote:Shall I ignore the selfish, materialistic, individualist culture which was created by Thatcher as being a possible cause of the riots ?
Certainly in Rhys's case!Phil Reynolds wrote:Oliver Garner wrote:Shall I ignore the selfish, materialistic, individualist culture which was created by Thatcher as being a possible cause of the riots ?
(Maybe it's time for a redrafting of Godwin's Law...)
Well, I'm certainly in favour of "tough sentences", but don't really want to get into a whole debate as to what they should be (community service vs custodial, the costs, the detrimental effect that prison might have on some etc) as that's a much more complex issue.Craig Beevers wrote:So what do people think of the sentencing for the rioters?
Here's one of many articles on it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14553330
It shows how easily people can get carried away, blindly following the mob, and thinking it's OK to effectively throw away the rulebook because everyone else is doing it.Craig Beevers wrote:So what do people think of the sentencing for the rioters?
Here's one of many articles on it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14553330
Great. Magnificent!!Craig Beevers wrote:So what do people think of the sentencing for the rioters?
Here's one of many articles on it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14553330
Haha, very cleverGavin Chipper wrote:It shows how easily people can get carried away, blindly following the mob, and thinking it's OK to effectively throw away the rulebook because everyone else is doing it.Craig Beevers wrote:So what do people think of the sentencing for the rioters?
Here's one of many articles on it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14553330