Re: CountMax errors
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:44 pm
I was playing Paul Howe earlier on Apterous and had GIRLIEST disallowed (not that it affected the outcome), is it really not in the OED?
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It's not in the ODE2r, surprising in my opinion. Girly (or girlie) is specified thought but with no derivatives.Ben Pugh wrote:I was playing Paul Howe earlier on Apterous and had GIRLIEST disallowed (not that it affected the outcome), is it really not in the OED?
I don't think it would be allowed either, given the current dictionary and rules, but I was thinking that maybe the dictionary should include a count noun sense for elements (if not all chemicals) because of the informal "an atom of..." usage.Julian Fell wrote:BROMINES has been allowed on the show before, though I think it would be disallowed now if it came up again. Though who knows really. Allowing plurals of elements is pretty dodgy; I know I'm not the only one who thinks that, at least (!) - they have allowed IODINES a couple of times recently (including David O'Donnell's QF), though I assume that's because of the secondary sense listed, of a solution in water. But then, BARIUM has a similar secondary sense, and DC have stuck with BARIUM when there was an S in the selection recently, so go figure...
jimbentley wrote:New version here. Now with 0.1% fewer mistakes!
Could someone with the current dictionary double-check FERREL, though? Even though I'm 99.99999% certain that Julian will be right, it could still be lurking under the entry for FERRULE, the ODE does funny stuff like that sometimes.
Cheers Kirk. As ever, please continue trying to find mistakes and post them in this thread, so that I can ignore them for several weeks and eventually be prodded into updating thingsKirk Bevins wrote:jimbentley wrote:New version here. Now with 0.1% fewer mistakes!
Could someone with the current dictionary double-check FERREL, though? Even though I'm 99.99999% certain that Julian will be right, it could still be lurking under the entry for FERRULE, the ODE does funny stuff like that sometimes.
I have the new ODE2r and FERREL can not be found (even under FERRULE). Ferrel's Law is the closest you come.
Quick question. Is the new ODE2r different from the ODE2r? If it is, then I can see a lot of people, including me, becoming very confused.Kirk Bevins wrote:I have the new ODE2r ...
No.Howard Somerset wrote:Is the new ODE2r different from the ODE2r?Kirk Bevins wrote:I have the new ODE2r ...
I never saw you as a pedant, Howard. I try and be helpful and at least twice on this thread I've had comments against the help.Howard Somerset wrote:Quick question. Is the new ODE2r different from the ODE2r? If it is, then I can see a lot of people, including me, becoming very confused.Kirk Bevins wrote:I have the new ODE2r ...
I took the question as a genuine request for clarification.Kirk Bevins wrote:I never saw you as a pedant, Howard. I try and be helpful and at least twice on this thread I've had comments against the help.
There was nothing pedantic about that comment. It was a legitimate clarification, as illustrated from Julian's reply.Kirk Bevins wrote: I never saw you as a pedant, Howard. I try and be helpful and at least twice on this thread I've had comments against the help.
Then you don't know me as well as you thought, Kirk. I think a love of pure maths and pedantry tend to go together. My wife and both my daughters frequently call me a pedantic bugger. Though quite often it's worded a little less politely.Kirk Bevins wrote:I never saw you as a pedant, Howard.
Looking at the ODE2r, it goes from GERONTOLOGY to -GEROUS.Paul Howe wrote:GEROPIGA?
Maybe an omission, more likely one of the NODE fragments that've been dumped from newer editions, but still seem to be floating around my brain.
Someone really bored should probably go through and check all of the -IER/-IEST words, because a lot of them have changed since the NODE.Julian Fell wrote:More definite mistakes: CHOKIER and CHOKIEST aren't in the ODE2r so should be removed from the list. EUCRITES is fine and should be on the list (it was in the dictionaries before CUTESIER goddammit, CUTESIER is the usurper )
Yes, it's bizarre. APOGEE has another sense but the rest of them are just inconsistencies. IMO they should all be count nouns.Julian Fell wrote:About APOLUNES - when I first read your post, Charlie, I agreed 100%, but then I did a bit of investigation... APOLUNE and PERILUNE are specified as mass nouns, but none of APOGEE, PERIGEE, APHELION or PERIHELION are (these being effectively the same idea, just going round the Earth / Sun instead). Make of that what you will...
Anyway Jim I notice you've got APOLUNES in the list but not PERILUNES... you should prob be consistent... although you could rightly say, why should I be when Dictionary Corner aren't...
It was probably more effort to exclude them than not, plus you never know when the rules might change. And theoretically they could still be conundrums.Julian Fell wrote:(Btw just out of interest Jim, I notice you've got two-vowelled 9-letter words in the list, which couldn't come up on normal Countdown - is that for Goatdown purposes?)
It's interesting with curries as well - to the best of my knowledge KORMA and JALFREZI are count nouns but BHUNA, DHANSAK, ROGAN JOSH and VINDALOO are mass nouns. Remember that guys the next time you go out to your local IndianCharlie Reams wrote: Yes, it's bizarre. APOGEE has another sense but the rest of them are just inconsistencies. IMO they should all be count nouns.
I compiled my own list purely from the ODE2r, then did a compare with Jim's and manually screened all the differences. So I certainly wouldn't have included any -ier/-iest words purely on the strength of them being in JimDic. However, lately I haven't bothered keeping mine up-to-date (with the stuff in this thread for example) because I rarely use my own game these days, but I'll happily send you the file if you just want to check it out.Charlie Reams wrote:Someone really bored should probably go through and check all of the -IER/-IEST words, because a lot of them have changed since the NODE.
Interestingly I looked this up in my NODE a few weeks ago (non-Countdown matters) but it only had NAIVETY.Paul Howe wrote:No NAIVETE? A strange one if not.
Already done, but I've not uploaded the new version yet.Julian Fell wrote:In relation to recent events on the show: COZIER and COZIEST need to be removed from Jim's list, as do MEOW, MEOWS, MEOWED and MEOWING.
Can I ask - when you upload the new dictionary, how do I update Countmax? Do I have to find a Countmax folder and delete the old dictionary or something and then put this dictionary in that folder?jimbentley wrote:Already done, but I've not uploaded the new version yet.Julian Fell wrote:In relation to recent events on the show: COZIER and COZIEST need to be removed from Jim's list, as do MEOW, MEOWS, MEOWED and MEOWING.
Yep, that will work.Kirk Bevins wrote:Can I ask - when you upload the new dictionary, how do I update Countmax? Do I have to find a Countmax folder and delete the old dictionary or something and then put this dictionary in that folder?
PARITY ends in a Y so presumably a definite ruling could be made based on whether the plural is listed.Julian Fell wrote:POLEIS needs to be removed from your list as well Jim - it's no longer in the dictionary.
Also you have DIORITES and PARITIES in your list, which are dubious - Jack Welsby had DIORITES disallowed in one of his heat games, and to the best of my knowledge DC haven't reversed that decision since; and I'm struggling to see a justification for PARITIES, either from the dictionary definition or from common sense...
I know I said the inclusion / exclusion of any mass noun plural is almost never a definite mistake; trouble is that on Apterous, a mass noun plural that's on the list would just be accepted without the chance for discussion, so it's worth flagging up at least
What a spot! I knew GUINEPS from a couple of years ago when it came up as I missed it but then I couldn't find it in the dictionary and assumed it was a mistake. Imagine telling Susie "you'll find it under GENIP", the whole country would know you'd studied the dictionary and wouldn't get away with Conor's excuse of "I've just heard it somewhere"!Julian Fell wrote: GUINEPS is interesting too - it's actually ok but you'd never know it by looking at the dictionary in the normal way, because GUINEP is listed under GENIP and not cross-referenced at all under the GU- words. I wonder then if BASSLINE is similarly lurking somewhere unfindable...?
I would say that DC were simply wrong to allow PENURIES, as it is a situation where they could just put their trust in the dictionary. Effectively they were overruling it.Julian Fell wrote:Sadly not, Gevin, given that DC have allowed PENURIES before (the plural PARITIES isn't specifically listed btw, for what it's worth).
And then you have the words ending in Y which don't have their own entries in the ODE2r (i.e. the ones that are listed as derivatives of other words), so can't be listed as mass nouns, even though some of them clearly are. The plurals of some of these words (the ones which the compilers think can be pluralized) are specified in the dictionary, but the plurals which aren't listed (LATENCIES, TRUANCIES etc.) have been and would be allowed on the show anyway.
So I suppose if you made a blanket ruling such as the one you're suggesting with regard to -Y words which have their own entries, although it would help re certainty, it would be illogical given the situation with the -Y words which don't have their own entries. It's a real minefield, that's for sure...
It's interesting what you say about North American v US spellings. I raised it before on gevincountdown but at the time couldn't find a specific example. I think the rule was that US spellings were banned so North American would be OK - also things like South African and Australian spellings would be OK if there were any listed. SPRINGBUCK is a South African spelling of SPRINGBOK but it has one too many letters to be relevant.Julian Fell wrote:LUPINES is an interesting one. I was just about to post that it shouldn't be in Jim's wordlist because LUPINE, as a noun, is an American spelling (LUPINE as an adjective - "relating to wolves" is fine)... but then I looked a bit more closely at the ODE2r: it says "LUPIN (N. Amer. also LUPINE)"... that's interesting because for things like, say, DEFENSE or CIGARET it says "...(US also... )".
So is LUPINES ok because that spelling applies to the whole of North America and not just the US? Damian?
GUINEPS is interesting too - it's actually ok but you'd never know it by looking at the dictionary in the normal way, because GUINEP is listed under GENIP and not cross-referenced at all under the GU- words. I wonder then if BASSLINE is similarly lurking somewhere unfindable...?
Am not sure what you mean. What is a North American spelling? To the best of my knowledge, the ODE lists US variant spellings for all words that they spell differently to us - all the usual stuff like color, goiter and favorite. It's these that are outlawed, but for a good reason.
Charlie Reams wrote:I'm pretty sure ASSHOLE is allowed now.
At least he's retiring soon.Damian E wrote:Am sure i've just seen one on the telly, Charlie.Charlie Reams wrote:I'm pretty sure ASSHOLE is allowed now.
When did you last check? There is no POOT, POOTER, POOTED or POOTING. Also POLESTAR has never been in as a single word - it's 2 words and capitalised. PETROSAL is the only valid anagram valid on Countdown and has been for the last 5 years at least when I first learnt it.Martin Gardner wrote:Bit surprised to see POOTED disallowed on Apterous - when I last checked, POOT was listed under POOTER so POOTED/ING would be fine. Also no POLESTAR? I see Paul Howe get PETROSAL on Apterous and dictionary corner had "nothing else".
I'm pretty sure both have these have been allowed on Countdown, otherwise why else would I have heard of them?Kirk Bevins wrote:When did you last check? There is no POOT, POOTER, POOTED or POOTING. Also POLESTAR has never been in as a single word - it's 2 words and capitalised. PETROSAL is the only valid anagram valid on Countdown and has been for the last 5 years at least when I first learnt it.Martin Gardner wrote:Bit surprised to see POOTED disallowed on Apterous - when I last checked, POOT was listed under POOTER so POOTED/ING would be fine. Also no POLESTAR? I see Paul Howe get PETROSAL on Apterous and dictionary corner had "nothing else".
Errr - life? They have mentioned POLESTAR^ as being capitalised before. You may have heard of HANEPOOT or similar words?Martin Gardner wrote:I'm pretty sure both have these have been allowed on Countdown, otherwise why else would I have heard of them?Kirk Bevins wrote:When did you last check? There is no POOT, POOTER, POOTED or POOTING. Also POLESTAR has never been in as a single word - it's 2 words and capitalised. PETROSAL is the only valid anagram valid on Countdown and has been for the last 5 years at least when I first learnt it.Martin Gardner wrote:Bit surprised to see POOTED disallowed on Apterous - when I last checked, POOT was listed under POOTER so POOTED/ING would be fine. Also no POLESTAR? I see Paul Howe get PETROSAL on Apterous and dictionary corner had "nothing else".
As far as I know the [in sing.] marking has always been (effectively) disregarded by DC in the past - as well as INRUSHES, the example that comes to mind which they always allow is BEDTIMES, and there've been others which I can't remember at the moment. It's only an unwritten rule (I believe), but certainly to be consistent they should allow PLEROMASConor wrote:Can PLEROMA be pluralized? It's tagged with [in sing.], but so is INRUSH and INRUSHES was allowed back in CoC XII: Matt Shore against Chris Cummins.
WASTER and WAISTED but not WAISTER.Gavin Chipper wrote:Is WAISTER a word these days? I'm sure it's come up loads but I had it disallowed on Apterous.