Artificial Sweeteners - Good or Bad?

[Derek Hazell]

I personally try to avoid artificial sweeteners, not principally for health reasons, but simply because I don't like the taste of them. There are a lot of different scare stories going around the web about sweeteners such as aspartame though, many of which seem to contradict each other.

Charlie is not too worried, because the whole experience of diet coke is his guilty pleasure. How do you feel about this, and what interesting articles can you link to?

[Alec Rivers]

Things that you wouldn't rush to talk about in general company, but can admit to here, because we are a trustworthy bunch?

Ever noticed [Google Bot] and [Yahoo Bot] in the guest list?

[Derek Hazell]

Ever noticed [Google Bot] and [Yahoo Bot] in the guest list?

Yeah, there's a whole thread about them here, and this post in particular shows it's nothing to get paranoid about.

[Charlie Reams]

What are your real guilty pleasures? Things that you wouldn't rush to talk about in general company, but can admit to here, because we are a trustworthy bunch? When you need to swich your brain off, where do you find solace?

The aroma from a fresh can of Coke fills me simultaneously with guilt, pleasure, and sugar.

[Lesley Hines]

The aroma from a fresh can of Coke fills me simultaneously with guilt, pleasure, and sugar.

Then stop snorting it! They're not the same thing you know
Tbf it's not possible to work on computers without Coke. It's a physiological impossibility. I speak from years of experience and experimentation. Must be properly leaded stuff too, the diet crap just doesn't hit the same mark.

[Kirk Bevins]

the diet crap just doesn't hit the same mark.

Nooo I love the diet stuff and I've had sooo much recently, like 4 cans a day. It's finally hit me though as I've got bad heartburn as the acids are just too much

[Alec Rivers]

the diet crap just doesn't hit the same mark.

Nooo I love the diet stuff and I've had sooo much recently, like 4 cans a day. It's finally hit me though as I've got bad heartburn as the acids are just too much

Not to mention the artificial sweeteners, many of which are toxic and are banned in a number of countries. Drink the proper stuff and make up for it by doing more than just exercising your wrists! (I'm talking about PC use & darts, of course.)

[Charlie Reams]

Not to mention the artificial sweeteners, many of which are toxic and are banned in a number of countries.

More information please.

[Alec Rivers]

Not to mention the artificial sweeteners, many of which are toxic and are banned in a number of countries.

More information please.

Just Google it.

[Charlie Reams]

Just Google it.

I did (or something similar, you didn't say aspartame specifically), and I assumed your must have more information, because the first result of that search suggests that there's no evidence that aspartame is toxic at the level seen in Diet Coke. Assuming Kirk is drinking less than 7 litres of the stuff per day, he's probably fine.

[Jon Corby]

Not to mention the artificial sweeteners, many of which are toxic and are banned in a number of countries.

More information please.

Just Google it.

I can't see anything that says aspartame is banned in any country.

[Derek Hazell]

I can't see anything that says aspartame is banned in any country.

Maybe they just advise against it, but keep it on as a guilty pleasure.

[Charlie Reams]

I can't see anything that says aspartame is banned in any country.

I found some person claiming it was banned in Japan, but I haven't been able to find anything authoritative on that, and Wikipedia doesn't mention it.

Edit: Coca-Cola definitely sell a product called "No Calorie Coca-Cola" in Japan, which is the same as Diet Coke. So if it's banned in any country, it's not in Europe, the US, or Japan.

[Matthew Green]

There are studied linking it with birth defects and identifying it as a neurotoxin which is pretty bad.

[Charlie Reams]

There are studied linking it with birth defects and identifying it as a neurotoxin which is pretty bad.

As far as I can tell, those studies were done on rats and in any case were at a dosage equivalent to consistently drinking about 7 litres of Diet Coke a day. If you know of newer/better studies, please point me to them.

Full disclosure: I have a 24-pack of Diet Coke sitting next to me.

[Jon Corby]

I hate Diet Coke, but I don't have to invent reasons for it, I just don't like drinking it.

[Richard Adams]

Most lunchtimes I enjoy a cold 500ml bottle of Diet Coke, and I keep a small stock in the office fridge.

I don't feel particularly guilty about this, although judging by some of the comments made (by colleagues and also my own children) about how bad they think it is for me, perhaps I should.

But are they right? How bad for me is it?

It's fascinating how such a popular drink gets such a bad press.

[Kieran Child]

http://www.de-fact-o.com/fact_read.php?id=140
Please read. -_-

[Charlie Reams]

http://www.de-fact-o.com/fact_read.php?id=140
Please read. -_-

Okay, so the first claim of that article is "Many studies have recommended further investigation into the possible connection between aspartame and diseases such as brain tumors, brain lesions, and lymphoma.[1][2][3]". That would be cause for speculative concern, so let's have a closer look.

Citation 1 is to Wikipedia. Bit dubious but okay, let's check it. Wikipedia says "The European Commission’s Scientific Committee on Food concluded in 2002 that, while some minor effects on health may occur at very high doses, no effects are expected at normal levels of consumption". Some actual scientific data, at last! But exactly the opposite of what was claimed in the de-fact-o article.

Citation 2 is to an article in the Washington Post, which could not really be described as a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Also the article is from 1983, and in any case is just a report of the (then new) approval of aspartame by the US authorities.

Citation 3 is to the US Food & Drug Administration's consumer magazine. Not ideal but maybe this will shed some light. This article is rather long but I think this sentence captures the essence: "Aspartame has come under fire in recent years from individuals who have used the Internet in an attempt to link the sweetener to brain tumors and other serious disorers [sound familiar?!]. But FDA stands behind its original approval of aspartame, and subsequent evaluations have shown the product is safe." Of course that later point could be an outright lie, but it does rather place the onus on its dissenters to find some study which suggests otherwise.

I have to admit I don't quite have the patience to do this for all 70-something citations in the article, but I think a website with the header "The artifical [sic] sweetner [sic] Aspartame can cause cancer: PROBABLY TRUE" which begins with three sources which suggest (respectively) the opposite, nothing at all, and the opposite is probably not all that reliable.

[Lesley Hines]

This is quite interesting too.

I'm always really, really reluctant, though, to start removing things altogether from my diet. All these studies are necessarily flawed since they're not taking into account the effects of other dietary components, correlation doesn't equal causation, etc. I did nutrition when I read Human Biology and it never fails to amaze me how much of it was utter rot.

Read Ben Goldacre's Bad Science - it's fantastic

All that in mind, a little of what you fancy does you good, surely? Not a lot, but in small quantities it can't be that harmful. Limit diet coke to 5l/day and you'll be fine *twitch*
(or I'll just stick to the truly natural alternative, proper fat coke )

[Charlie Reams]

This is quite interesting too.

I'm always really, really reluctant, though, to start removing things altogether from my diet. All these studies are necessarily flawed since they're not taking into account the effects of other dietary components, correlation doesn't equal causation, etc. I did nutrition when I read Human Biology and it never fails to amaze me how much of it was utter rot.

That article doesn't seem to provide much in the way of scientific evidence. It does suggest that Monsanto acted somewhat unethically (quelle surprise!) in discontinuing a study which looked like it might show aspartame in a bad light, but they stopped the study based on preliminary results which were presumably at a low level of statistical significance (hence being preliminary). No independent study that I've seen has exhibited such a correlation, although I'm still open to being shown such a study. It also refers to the same old study of aspartame in rats, although conveniently doesn't mention the vast quantities involved. I'm also a bit confused because the article has citation numbers but they don't seem to go anywhere, so there's no way to check any of its facts (even the ones which are basically "Some guy said...").

[Kieran Child]

erm.... Citation 1 is this:

Olney, J.W., N.B. Farber, E. Spitznagel, L.N. Robins, 1996. "Increasing Brain Tumor Rates: Is There a Link to Aspartame?" Journal of Neuropathology and Experimental Neurology, Volume 55, pages 1115–1123

Citation 2 is this:

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2005/8711/8711.pdf

Citation 3 is this:

Roberts, H.J., "Does Aspartame Cause Human Brain Cancer," Journal of Advancement in Medicine, Volume 4(4):231-241, 1991.

-_-

[Charlie Reams]

erm.... Citation 1 is this:

Olney, J.W., N.B. Farber, E. Spitznagel, L.N. Robins, 1996. "Increasing Brain Tumor Rates: Is There a Link to Aspartame?" Journal of Neuropathology and Experimental Neurology, Volume 55, pages 1115–1123

Citation 2 is this:

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2005/8711/8711.pdf

Citation 3 is this:

Roberts, H.J., "Does Aspartame Cause Human Brain Cancer," Journal of Advancement in Medicine, Volume 4(4):231-241, 1991.

-_-

if you click the numbers in the article then they take you to the pages I said. If you read the citations at the bottom, they point to somewhere completely different. But the ones at the bottom are clearly not right, because they only go up to 41, whereas the citations in the article are numbered up to 70.

[Kieran Child]

God that's a shame. I checked through the whole of this article a few weeks back and the sources were fine. The basic line, though, is that Aspartame is not 'illegal' in any country, but there exist cases where, because of time more than anything, it had yet to be approved. It does not cause any problems among the general population, but does have the potential to cause cancer. It is, practically, the same danger level as salt.

[Charlie Reams]

Notwithstanding the confused citation structure, I thought I'd check out the three articles you linked:-

The Olney et al paper doesn't appear to be available anywhere online, but Googling it yields a summary from the University of Sussex which says "If Olney's hypothesis is to be substantiated it will be necessary to analyse several long-term brain cancer time-series data sets for other countries covering the period both before and since aspartame was introduced. " In other words, whatever Olney et al were saying, it was still inadequately tested. That article is now thirteen years old, so maybe it has now been tested, but I've not seen any such results. Well, fair enough, de-fact-o only claimed that doubts have been raised, but it did omit to mention how putative they were. It also didn't mention the much newer results from the EU and the US food safety authorities, which concluded the opposite.

The second citation is the study on rats.

The third citation is actually available online - woo! Here it is. This article is from the Journal of Advancement in Medicine, which I've not heard of and doesn't have a Wikipedia page, but we'll grant them the benefit of the doubt for now. First up, the article does not present any new scientific evidence. it also notes an unexplained rise in primary brain lymphoma at around the same time that aspartame was first licensed in the US. Of course that was nearly thirty years ago now and I don't know whether any explanation has since been found, but I think by now I don't need to point out that this is completely post hoc ergo propter hoc, and quite a few other things were going on in the world around 1981. Finally the article criticises the FDA and Monsanto's handling of the scientific data at the time, which is a political point which I probably agree with but doesn't change whether aspartame is actually bad for you.

It is, practically, the same danger level as salt.

If you drank 7 litres of some salty beverage a day [insert own joke here] then something equally bad would probably happen to you, yes.

[Lesley Hines]

...

...

Sorry, I phrased that really badly. All studies on human dietary components are necessarily flawed. They don't take into account other dietary components, etc. The vitamin A causes cancer stuff - why on earth would anyone consume it at the levels stated? Lemons are poisonous to cats - all studies based on non-human research should immediately be viewed with extreme caution. I've seen many studies where causation has been conveniently assumed owing to a statistical correlation (the good one for that is that tee-totallers don't live as long as drinkers). All this is then bandied about by nutritionists to justify their employment where the advice "don't overdo too much of anything and have as varied a diet as possible" would have saved someone £200.

Anyway, I'm agreeing but I'm not sure I was terribly clear the first time. I don't think that's much better, but being a bit short on time to correctly reference stuff I'll leave it there.
Everything in moderation*
*except sulphuric acid. Or similar.

[Marc Meakin]

From experience, eating a whole pack of sugar free Polos in one go, makes you shit through the eye of a needle.

[Michael Wallace]

All studies on human dietary components are necessarily flawed.

So like any study on anything, then.

[Jon Corby]

From experience, eating a whole pack of sugar free Polos in one go, makes you shit through the eye of a needle.

Yeah, that's sorbitol isn't it?

[Marc Meakin]

From experience, eating a whole pack of sugar free Polos in one go, makes you shit through the eye of a needle.

Yeah, that's sorbitol isn't it?

Should be called Sorebutthole.

[Lesley Hines]

All studies on human dietary components are necessarily flawed.

So like any study on anything, then.

Haha! Fair play - I asked for that

[Kirk Bevins]

From experience, eating a whole pack of sugar free Polos in one go, makes you shit through the eye of a needle.

Yeah, that's sorbitol isn't it?

Should be called Sorebutthole.

Haha good one.

[Gavin Chipper]

I don't drink many fizzy drinks (never really drink them at all at home) but when I do I tend to avoid diet ones, because I think they taste a bit rubbish. Most non-diet drinks seem to have artificial sweeteners anyway as far as I can see, but also some sort of sugar as well. The only time I go out of my way to have artificial sweeteners is in sugar-free chewing gum. Maybe I suppose toothpaste as well?

[Derek Hazell]

Maybe I suppose toothpaste as well?

Yeah, we don't really think about that, but it does taste sweet and sugar would kind of defeat the purpose! The difference I suppose is that we don't swallow it. There is a toothpaste available which contains no artificial sweeteners at all; it's called Tom's of Maine and is available from independent pharmacies. Being not sweet, it seems strange first of all, but you adapt to it surprisingly quickly, and the flavours, such as apricot are interesting. The only thing is, it doesn't contain fluoride either.

[Gavin Chipper]

Actually I use this so I think I'm exempt on the toothpaste front.

[Derek Hazell]

Actually I use this so I think I'm exempt on the toothpaste front.

Lol okay. Temporary memory loss, Gevin? Maybe those all-natural ingredients aren't doing you so much good after all.

[Gavin Chipper]

Actually I use this so I think I'm exempt on the toothpaste front.

Lol okay. Temporary memory loss, Gevin? Maybe those all-natural ingredients aren't doing you so much good after all.

Must be. I'm not sure what I was thinking really.

[Martin Smith]

Since cheese naturally cleans your teeth, and most people probably like it more than apricots, maybe someone should make a toothpaste which contains small amounts of cheese?

I hate the taste of artificial sweeteners too, and find that most of them send me to the toilet pretty quickly. Sugar-free Tesco Kick (their cheapo Red Bull clone) is the worst. I don't really go for Coke in any form, perhaps because I grew up almost entirely without sugar and artificial additives in my diet. My soft drinks are usually either Apple Juice or Sprite.

[Charlie Reams]

Since cheese naturally cleans your teeth

[Citation needed]

[Derek Hazell]

I remember reading that cashew nuts have such strong oil in them that they coat your teeth and protect them from anything else getting in. I also remember reading that although tea and coffee stain your teeth, they are actually very good for your dental health.

I don't have any citations for either of those either though.

[Charlie Reams]

I remember reading that cashew nuts have such strong oil in them that they coat your teeth and protect them from anything else getting in. I also remember reading that although tea and coffee stain your teeth, they are actually very good for your dental health.

I don't have any citations for either of those either though.

Just to clarify, I don't expect a scientific paper on the subject, but it would be nice to see someone vaguely authoritative saying it.

[Jon Corby]

Since cheese naturally cleans your teeth

[Citation needed]

Cheese also gives you cancer though. It's a difficult equilibrium to find.

[Matthew Green]

I have seen papers on aspartame and sucralose being bad but I pay for them and cant link them. There isnt anything conclusive as far as im aware and it can all be contested but the bottom line is, I have seen enough to know that I wouldnt let a small child consume even small amounts of the stuff.

There is a guy called Joseph Mercola who has lots of info about this topic but unfortunately he comes across as a bit of a nut job. If you stand all his ad copy and corny sensationalism you can find some interesting stuff on his site but its certainly a trawl.

[Kieran Child]

Since cheese naturally cleans your teeth

[Citation needed]

http://www.who.int/nutrition/publicatio ... h_nut7.pdf

I have seen papers on aspartame and sucralose being bad but I pay for them and cant link them. There isnt anything conclusive as far as im aware and it can all be contested but the bottom line is, I have seen enough to know that I wouldnt let a small child consume even small amounts of the stuff.

There is a guy called Joseph Mercola who has lots of info about this topic but unfortunately he comes across as a bit of a nut job. If you stand all his ad copy and corny sensationalism you can find some interesting stuff on his site but its certainly a trawl.

Would you give the same child salt? or refined sugar? Aspartame is not brilliant, and can cause very serious health problems, but it presents negligible danger for the majority of people.

[Matthew Green]

Nothing wrong with certain types of salt, and a bit of sugar not too bad but sweeteners, MSG, trans fats and intensively reared meat absolutely not.

[Marc Meakin]

Nothing wrong with certain types of salt, and a bit of sugar not too bad but sweeteners, MSG, trans fats and intensively reared meat absolutely not.

It makes you wonder how the Chinese live so long.

[Dinos Sfyris]

I have seen papers on sucralose being bad.

pffft its health and safety gone mad. What could possibly be health-damaging about riding mechanical horses on a rotating platform?

[Charlie Reams]

Since cheese naturally cleans your teeth

[Citation needed]

http://www.who.int/nutrition/publicatio ... h_nut7.pdf

Cool, I didn't know that. I guess I can't call cheese a guilty pleasure any more.

[Marc Meakin]

You could make toothpaste made out of cheese but you would have to brush Caerphilly.

[Alec Rivers]

You could make toothpaste made out of cheese but you would have to brush Caerphilly.

lol / groan etc.

[Gavin Chipper]

Since cheese naturally cleans your teeth

[Citation needed]

http://www.who.int/nutrition/publicatio ... h_nut7.pdf

I couldn't find cheese mentioned in the abstract and that article is 26 pages long! Where does it say?

[Gavin Chipper]

Nothing wrong with certain types of salt, and a bit of sugar not too bad but sweeteners, MSG, trans fats and intensively reared meat absolutely not.

It makes you wonder how the Chinese live so long.

MSG gets a lot of bad press but I'm not sure if the evidence stacks up. I used to think I was allergic to it but I'm not sure any more. A lot of flavoured crisps (most of which have MSG) make me sneeze and feel a bit shit. I used to blame MSG but decided upon trawling the internet that it's not as bad as people say and it could be something else in the crisps.

[Gavin Chipper]

I remember reading that cashew nuts have such strong oil in them that they coat your teeth and protect them from anything else getting in. I also remember reading that although tea and coffee stain your teeth, they are actually very good for your dental health.

I don't have any citations for either of those either though.

Just to clarify, I don't expect a scientific paper on the subject, but it would be nice to see someone vaguely authoritative saying it.

How about bold and red?

Cashew nuts have such strong oil in them that they coat your teeth and protect them from anything else getting in. Also although tea and coffee stain your teeth, they are actually very good for your dental health.

And so I don't make another consecutive post:

I have seen papers on aspartame and sucralose being bad but I pay for them and cant link them. There isnt anything conclusive as far as im aware and it can all be contested but the bottom line is, I have seen enough to know that I wouldnt let a small child consume even small amounts of the stuff.

There is a guy called Joseph Mercola who has lots of info about this topic but unfortunately he comes across as a bit of a nut job. If you stand all his ad copy and corny sensationalism you can find some interesting stuff on his site but its certainly a trawl.

It's good to know that you would spend money just to educate us. You are truly worthy of Jason Larsen's face.

[Lesley Hines]

I remember reading that cashew nuts have such strong oil in them that they coat your teeth and protect them from anything else getting in. I also remember reading that although tea and coffee stain your teeth, they are actually very good for your dental health.

I don't have any citations for either of those either though.

Just to clarify, I don't expect a scientific paper on the subject, but it would be nice to see someone vaguely authoritative saying it.

Hth re nuts, this re tea and this re coffee


As a precis they all interfere with the activity of streptococci mutans, the gram-positive bacteria that contribute to dental cavities.

[Derek Hazell]

Just to clarify, I don't expect a scientific paper on the subject, but it would be nice to see someone vaguely authoritative saying it.

How about bold and red?

Cashew nuts have such strong oil in them that they coat your teeth and protect them from anything else getting in. Also although tea and coffee stain your teeth, they are actually very good for your dental health.

I have seen papers on aspartame and sucralose being bad but I pay for them and cant link them

It's good to know that you would spend money just to educate us. You are truly worthy of Jason Larsen's face.

Vintage Gevin

Hth re nuts, this re tea and this re coffee

Leg(with a soft "g")ley Hines

[Lesley Hines]

Leg(with a soft "g")ley Hines

Sod off, I've got great legs!!

[Gavin Chipper]

Leg(with a soft "g")ley Hines

Sod off, I've got great legs!!

Allegedly.