Politics in General

[Marc Meakin]

Israel can do what they want because countries decide what's "right" and "wrong" based on whether the act is committed by a pre-determined ally or not. Israel is an ally of America, Britain etc. so therefore they are the goodies. It's so transparently BS but it is what it is.

All points taken , but the hostage situation may have been the catalyst for the Israeli escalation of war but the prolonged attacks on Hezbollah outside of Gaza is continuing as nobody has the clout to challenge it

[Gavin Chipper]

I'm liking the cut of Kemis Jib

She's so bad she makes Powell the good Enoch.

[Tal Lessner]

but the prolonged attacks on Hezbollah outside of Gaza is continuing as nobody has the clout to challenge it

Are you kidding?

I love the "prolonged attacks" bit... Especially considering Hezbullah has been bombing Israel for 11 months refusing any attempt to end hostilities.

What is Israel supposed to do here? Continue the "nice" rounds of letting Hezbollah bomb civilians with only minor retaliation?
They had 11 months to stop that shite, started entirely by Hezbollah.

About the original comment, have no idea what the this has to do with Russia (other than Russia probably selling weapons Iran, who arms Hezbollah).
Also, keep in mind that in terms of the so called "Leader" Lebanon and Gaza are complete opposites.
While in Gaza he blocks any ceasefire agreement attempt because of his Nazi government allies and their fanatic religious lebensraum ideology.
In Lebanon it was the exact opposite, he tried avoiding escalation for a long time, while actually the pressure to strike in Lebanon came mostly from military leaders and from the political left - the same people calling for ceasefire in Gaza (Yes, most of the top people of security and defence services including the defence minister, do want a ceasefire in Gaza, it's the loonies on the far right stopping it). Netanyahu is a scared piece of shite whose entire agenda is to keep himself as prime minister. Him and the Nazis don't really care about the fact people in the north have been away from what's left of their homes for 11 months. Just like he doesn't care about the hostages and keeps the pointless massacre in Gaza going.

But seriously, back to Lebanon, people seem to forget that apart from the horrid occupation and killing in Gaza & West Bank. Israel is also surrounded by other forces who will annihilate should they have a chance. And as Hezbollah's actions have shown over the past year, also without much of a chance.
Israel is not at fault for being much stronger than Hezbollah, but when antagonising a much stronger force, one should know when to pull the breaks, and they had 11 months to do so.

[Marc Meakin]

I'm liking the cut of Kemis Jib

She's so bad she makes Powell the good Enoch.

You must have read my mind , she comes across as Enoch light
She makes valid points about integration but her language is clunky.
Kuensberg though is useless.
After footage of her saying she was middle class until she worked at McDonalds was surely a question to ask her rather than trying to get her to say she hates Muslims

[Gavin Chipper]

Presumably Hezbollah's attacks 11 months ago coincide with Israel's genocide in Gaza.

This is not an endorsement of Hezbollah and their actions, but the hate of Israel doesn't come from a vacuum.

Plus that thing with the pagers can only be described as terrorism.

[Tal Lessner]

Presumably Hezbollah's attacks 11 months ago coincide with Israel's genocide in Gaza.

This is not an endorsement of Hezbollah and their actions, but the hate of Israel doesn't come from a vacuum.

No.
Hezbollah launched the attack on 8th October. Following the 7th October massacre.
Sure, they can hate Israel, Israel occupied southern Lebanon for 17 years until 2000 almost 25 years ago. But this doesn't change the fact that they initiated an attack, refuse to end it, and you're trying to justify it by presuming.

[Gavin Chipper]

OK, I might be wrong about the dates. I'm not justifying though but I do think each side has to be held responsible for its own actions. Being a lot more powerful and being able to unleash hell does come with that responsibility.

[Tal Lessner]

OK, I might be wrong about the dates. I'm not justifying though but I do think each side has to be held responsible for its own actions. Being a lot more powerful and being able to unleash hell does come with that responsibility.

And Israel was responsible trying to avoid full scale war for 11 months. But I guess internal Lebanon politics and Iran backing is more important for Hezbollah than not being attacked with full force.
I really can't see how Israel is supposed to act. Continue with business as usual, let Hezbollah throw some rockets, bomb some of their launchers in response and wait for the next attack tomorrow?
What exactly are the expectations here?

[Gavin Chipper]

Well going back to the initial attacks, Israel were very quick to start attacking Gaza and I've read a few sources saying Lebanon's attacks started in support of Gaza due to this, even if it did start very quickly after the Hamas attack itself.

But we're looking at this quite reactively. What should Israel have done given the Hamas attack, given the Hezbollah attacks etc. But years of occupation etc. creates terrorists and this mindset. It would take an entirely different type of approach. But it's difficult to break the cycle now.

If they were serious about peace they would change leader for someone that doesn't have this history and make moves towards a peaceful solution. Perhaps get the help of other countries - not America or any country that has a pre-determined side - to be involved in peace negotiations and solutions for the future.

[Tal Lessner]

Well going back to the initial attacks, Israel were very quick to start attacking Gaza and I've read a few sources saying Lebanon's attacks started in support of Gaza due to this, even if it did start very quickly after the Hamas attack itself.

Oh, yeah, keep this line. Hezbollah joined the attack on Israel. Hezbollah declared war without being attacked or occupied in any way.
Keep defending the indefensible.
Here's one for you - Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation encouraged by Iran to attack Israel without being provoked. How is that for you instead of some insane mental gymnastics?

But we're looking at this quite reactively. What should Israel have done given the Hamas attack, given the Hezbollah attacks etc. But years of occupation etc. creates terrorists and this mindset. It would take an entirely different type of approach. But it's difficult to break the cycle now.

Again, no occupation in Lebanon.

If they were serious about peace they would change leader for someone that doesn't have this history and make moves towards a peaceful solution. Perhaps get the help of other countries - not America or any country that has a pre-determined side - to be involved in peace negotiations and solutions for the future.

Nobody said Israeli government is looking for peace. But in this case there was no on-going conflict before. Hezbollah started the escalation, and Hezbollah refused to end it. Putting the blame on the horrible leaders of Israel is a bad joke here. But at least to some extent, Israeli forces have taken your advice, and changed the leader - of Hezbollah.

So you started by justifying Hamas attacks, and now you're justifying Hezbollah because their lovely innocent friends are attacked and they're just here to help? You should really stop thinking in black and white and in terms that anybody attacking the evil Israel (evil no doubt) is completely innocent.

[Gavin Chipper]

No, you mistake an attempt at an explanation as a justification.

In terms of justification, your early posts in this thread came across to me as very pro-Israel and a justification of everything they were doing and then there was this big reveal that you didn't support them. So maybe it's a lesson that making black and white assumptions about what other people are thinking isn't always advisable.

[Marc Meakin]

No, you mistake an attempt at an explanation as a justification.

In terms of justification, your early posts in this thread came across to me as very pro-Israel and a justification of everything they were doing and then there was this big reveal that you didn't support them. So maybe it's a lesson that making black and white assumptions about what other people are thinking isn't always advisable.

It has to be said that the majority of the Gernan people did not advocate the Final Solution in the same way the nation of Israel are not behind The Israeli government's perpetual war against tolertorists over brokering for peace and the inevitable 2 state solution in Gaza.
I'm sure the same could be said of the Lebanese people backing Hezbollah

[Tal Lessner]

No, you mistake an attempt at an explanation as a justification.

In terms of justification, your early posts in this thread came across to me as very pro-Israel and a justification of everything they were doing and then there was this big reveal that you didn't support them. So maybe it's a lesson that making black and white assumptions about what other people are thinking isn't always advisable.

In my opinion the explanation was in order to justify the attack. Sorry if I'm wrong here. Regardless, this explanation is at best a poor excuse, they didn't think for a second they would actually help Hamas militarily. Nobody thought so or thinks so.

I'm here for interesting discussions, my early posts came as pro Israeli because:
1. At the time it looked from discussions here that nobody seems to take into account the 7th Oct massacre, and say what you want about Israel's genocidal tendencies, that massacre required extreme homicidal insanity, one that even Israel is not capable of.
2. At the time of our initial arguments, Israel's response was still mostly justified in my opinion.

Since then, many months have passed, and situation has changed. It's clear that Israel's goals in Gaza are no longer destroying Hamas & the return of the hostages as Israel claims, but purely just keeping the war going for Netanyahu to appease his Nazi government partners and keeping himself in power. Every single action from Netanyahu since 7th Oct is first of all weighed in terms of its affect on his political power, he is a dangerous man, he's not nearly as powerful as he has been up until 2019.
And like all crazy tyrants in the past, when having his back against the wall, he'll turn on his own people and country.

As for me personally, I go regularly to the protests in favour of a ceasefire deal with Hamas. Just like I was going regularly up until a year ago to the protests against the judicial "reform".
Every political argument with friends/family/colleagues other than here, I'm the "Gavin Chipper" condemning my own country and government.
I detest my country, I detest its government, the racist fascists who voted for it, the (not as much but still very) racists and fascists from the "opposition" (basically saying "we want to be racists, but not with Netanyahu"). I even find myself cheering for whoever plays against the Israeli national football team.
But then I come here, and I see all the posts here basically saying that Israel has no right to properly defend itself. So I find myself for the only time in my adult life, taking my racist fascist country side.
Seems to me that it's much easier to ignore basic facts once one has taken a side about a place far far away.

[Gavin Chipper]

Anyway we've had what looks like a terror attack in Tel Aviv and Iran have chucked missiles in. Pretty bad stuff, in isolation and for any future prospects of peace.

[Marc Meakin]

Anyway we've had what looks like a terror attack in Tel Aviv and Iran have chucked missiles in. Pretty bad stuff, in isolation and for any future prospects of peace.

Very understated Gev.
I'm cancelling my Amazon order for a 5 year diary

[Gavin Chipper]

I don't actually watch that many Owen Jones videos (despite what you might all think), but I happened to watch this one on Iran's attack on Israel. I do think he made some good points, including about what Keir Starmer said and about human shields.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Unleashed is a cracking read. Boris is an excellent writer, always has been.

[Gavin Chipper]

Unleashed is a cracking read. Boris is an excellent writer, always has been.

I take it that's the name of his book? Excellent liar more like.

Edit - well he's not an excellent liar. He's quite transparent.

[Marc Meakin]

Unleashed is a cracking read. Boris is an excellent writer, always has been.

I take it that's the name of his book? Excellent liar more like.

Edit - well he's not an excellent liar. He's quite transparent.

I might buy the audio book version az he reads it himself.

Though I bought Spare read by Prince Harry and I still haven't listened to it yet

[Gavin Chipper]

Unleashed is a cracking read. Boris is an excellent writer, always has been.

I take it that's the name of his book? Excellent liar more like.

Edit - well he's not an excellent liar. He's quite transparent.

I might buy the audio book version az he reads it himself.

Though I bought Spare read by Prince Harry and I still haven't listened to it yet

Buying his book is just feeding the troll.

[David Harrison]

Unleashed is a cracking read. Boris is an excellent writer, always has been.

Think it would be better placed in the fiction section in bookshops.

[Marc Meakin]

I take it that's the name of his book? Excellent liar more like.

Edit - well he's not an excellent liar. He's quite transparent.

I might buy the audio book version az he reads it himself.

Though I bought Spare read by Prince Harry and I still haven't listened to it yet

Buying his book is just feeding the troll.

As deluded as he clearly is , he is an honest liar (oxymoron, emphasis on the moron )
He believes his bullshit and will lead the Tories again in 10 years when Sir Kier is ousted.
I'm sure the nonpolitical parts of the book will be more interesting than infuriating

[Ian Fitzpatrick]

I might buy the audio book version az he reads it himself.

Though I bought Spare read by Prince Harry and I still haven't listened to it yet

Buying his book is just feeding the troll.

As deluded as he clearly is , he is an honest liar (oxymoron, emphasis on the moron )
He believes his bullshit and will lead the Tories again in 10 years when Sir Kier is ousted.
I'm sure the nonpolitical parts of the book will be more interesting than infuriating

You think Starmer will last 10 years?!

[Marc Meakin]

Buying his book is just feeding the troll.

As deluded as he clearly is , he is an honest liar (oxymoron, emphasis on the moron )
He believes his bullshit and will lead the Tories again in 10 years when Sir Kier is ousted.
I'm sure the nonpolitical parts of the book will be more interesting than infuriating

You think Starmer will last 10 years?!

Oh God no , I meant the Labour party.
Two tier Kier will last 2 years max

[Phil H]

Nothing much been happening the last week or two.

[Gavin Chipper]

Very quiet time in the world of politics.

[Marc Meakin]

Very quiet time in the world of politics.

Us politics are beyond parody .
When do they realise that when a clown enters a seat of poor it doesn't become a Palace but a circus.
Bottom line.

American voters were financially better off under Trump.
The thought of a woman running their country was less palatable than the alternative

[Fiona T]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0eq7VNCcYY

[Gavin Chipper]

Yeah I watched the Pie video. I didn't follow the campaigns that closely but in general you need to make the case for yourself rather than just scaremongering on the opposition.

(But also it helps to say what you're linking to.)

[Marc Meakin]

Yeah I watched the Pie video. I didn't follow the campaigns that closely but in general you need to make the case for yourself rather than just scaremongering on the opposition.

(But also it helps to say what you're linking to.)

I can see similarities to Corbyns attempts to over come buffoon Boris when he went to the country a few December's ago.

Harris was no better than a VP the last VP to run America was Lyndon B Johnson , and we know how that turned out

[David Roe]

Yeah I watched the Pie video. I didn't follow the campaigns that closely but in general you need to make the case for yourself rather than just scaremongering on the opposition.

(But also it helps to say what you're linking to.)

I can see similarities to Corbyns attempts to over come buffoon Boris when he went to the country a few December's ago.

Harris was no better than a VP the last VP to run America was Lyndon B Johnson , and we know how that turned out

Gerald Ford actually, but I think that just strengthens your point!

[David Williams]

last VP to run America was Lyndon B Johnson , and we know how that turned out

Civil rights and Vietnam. Bit of a mixed bag.

[Marc Meakin]

last VP to run America was Lyndon B Johnson , and we know how that turned out

Civil rights and Vietnam. Bit of a mixed bag.

Which seemed a lifetime away in 1963.
Civil Rights wasn't exactly created from a sense of achievement...1968 was a terrible time

[Callum Todd]

Yeah I watched the Pie video. I didn't follow the campaigns that closely but in general you need to make the case for yourself rather than just scaremongering on the opposition.

(But also it helps to say what you're linking to.)

I can see similarities to Corbyns attempts to over come buffoon Boris when he went to the country a few December's ago.

I can also see similarities to Starmer's (successful) attempt to overcome Sunak earlier this year. I think the difference was that most people in the UK wanted rid of the Tory government, while the same sentiment (somehow!) didn't stand in the US against Trump. Obvs Tories were incumbent too so a carte blanche campaign can still posture as a 'change' vote.

That being said, as I think it's been mentioned here before, this Labour government actually didn't do very well in terms of popular vote in the general election. They just came out of the seat allocations fairly well, as did Lib Dems.

[Marc Meakin]

Cop 29 is a bit of a joke really.
And not just because the Taliban are there.
Most of the big players and biggest climate change offenders cannot be bothered to turn up

[Marc Meakin]

I see there is a petition to have another general election and it's already on 1 7 million
It would have better traction if it was on voting reform

[Marc Meakin]

Glad the assisted dying Bill got through
At last this government has got something right

[Marc Meakin]

Even though Trump seemed to beat Harris by a huge margin , actually he only won with 1.5% more votes than Harris

[Andy Wilson]

Free Palestine.

[Marc Meakin]

Free Palestine.

With every packet of cornflakes

[Andy Wilson]

How long does it take you to go through a box of cornflakes? Maybe two weeks? That’s about 1300 boxes of cornflakes in your life time, boldly assuming you are about 50 years old.

That’s about ten dead babies in the last 15 months per box of cornflakes you’ve consumed in your life.

[Andy Wilson]

No doubt you’ll have a witty reply such as, ah well I’m a weetabix man, or some such light hearted remark.

Well let’s just stop for a minute because there is absolutely nothing light hearted about genocide. I feel somewhat lucky to be Irish in this situation where it is OK to protest and although it seems to do F all good at least in years to come when people realise what went on here, i won’t have to feel guilty for doing nothing, or cracking jokes.

[Andy Wilson]

No matter what your side. A crime is a crime and a child is a child.

The doctor is crying. What good is all this hate?

No matter who you praise or blame, inside the hospital walls, we all bleed and break the very same.

[Gavin Chipper]

Since we're back on Gaza, there's an interesting video on the BBC's decision to remove the documentary Gaza: How to Survive a War Zone from the iPlayer.

[Marc Meakin]

No doubt you’ll have a witty reply such as, ah well I’m a weetabix man, or some such light hearted remark.

Well let’s just stop for a minute because there is absolutely nothing light hearted about genocide. I feel somewhat lucky to be Irish in this situation where it is OK to protest and although it seems to do F all good at least in years to come when people realise what went on here, i won’t have to feel guilty for doing nothing, or cracking jokes.

It's called gallows humour
Many of my relatives died in THE Holocaust , I use humour to deal with the unthinkable , it has always been my way.
With regards to Palestine , I do want there to be a solution but I can think of one that isn't a utopian ideal
I do worry that killing Jews gets more traction in the Middle East than actually helping Palestinians.
I don't see any floodgates being opened in surrounding Arab States to accommodate Palestinian refugees

[Andy Wilson]

This genocide is happening right now, and it’s not very funny.

[Gavin Chipper]

This genocide is happening right now, and it’s not very funny.

Yes.

[Tal Lessner]

This genocide is happening right now, and it’s not very funny.

Come on, it's justified, Netanyahu needs to fire the head of Shin Bet due to him leading an investigation of officials in the prime minister office being paid by Qatar. And to finalise the return of the Nazi party to the government (they left after the recent ceasefire). 500 dead civilians in one day is a small price to pay to give Bibi some political power.
Fuck it, looking at Israel's government in the past week shows that however low you can get, evil people can make it much worse.

Not to mention the escalation of police violence against Israelis protesting recent events. That's the only hope, that the internal resistence to the fascists in government will continue to grow with roads blocking, strikes and even refusal to serve in the army reserves.
Not that the fascists and Bibi care, they will burn everything to stay in power.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Carol Vorderman’s gone quiet recently.

Hah.

[Ian Volante]

Carol Vorderman’s gone quiet recently.

Hah.

I was thinking I'd seen her appearing on stuff a bit recently for the first time in a while. Although I suspect you're referring to her talking about a particular issue? I'm not sure what.

[Gavin Chipper]

When the most warmongering country in the Middle East decides to bomb another country, what do you do? If you're the US, join in!

[Marc Meakin]

When the most warmongering country in the Middle East decides to bomb another country, what do you do? If you're the US, join in!

We live in a age where the balance of world power is controlled by 3 senile old men.

That said, on what planet do you think it's a good idea to give Iran a nuclear bomb

[Gavin Chipper]

When the most warmongering country in the Middle East decides to bomb another country, what do you do? If you're the US, join in!

We live in a age where the balance of world power is controlled by 3 senile old men.

That said, on what planet do you think it's a good idea to give Iran a nuclear bomb

It's probably not a great idea. But Benjamin Netanyahu has been saying that Iran's nuclear bomb is imminent since the 90s.

It's insane how Israel are the main aggressors in the region by a long way but the west just go along with it. Which country should be bombing their nuclear facilities? Meanwhile Israel just get on with their day-to-day business of shooting Gazans at aid stations.

[Tal Lessner]

Gavin, you always point out how terrible Israel is (and it is), while deliberately ignoring the fact the other side is even worse.

Iran leaders have stated many times before that they're objective is the destruction of Israel, not to free Palestine, but annihilate the "Zionist Entity". And while it could have been considered just talk in the past, the 7.10.23 attacks were orchestrated by Iran military leaders, the three fronts attack was started by 3 Iranian controlled organizations. Iran is not just talking, they actively pursue the destruction of Israel. And now, these guys are actively pursuing nuclear weapons (not only according to Netanyahu, as I'm sure you know because you must have read some news reports and analysis about it if you have such a strong opinion).
I feel fucking great about these nuclear sites along with other military capabilities being destroyed, even if it's done by the racist, war-mongering, insane government of Israel.
Israel may be the main aggressor with the occupation, but Iran is the fucking lunatic that's responsible for that fuckery in Gaza, Lebanon, Yemen, and now in its own country.

Just a few notes (because I always feel a bit sick needing take Israel's side due to Gavin's claims):
1. I still have a feeling that Israel might try to drag the Iranian attack for political reasons way beyond necessary, when it happens I'll be the first to condemn it here.
2. This is purely about Iran, in Gaza Israel is committing war crimes, ethnic cleansing spiced with outright genocidal actions. This must end.
3. Terrible things happen in the West Bank as well, and getting worse with settlers raiding Palestinian while protected (even actively helped) by military forces.
4. Internally Israel is in total shit, the government is using the war to suppress media, reduce the power of the courts (yeah, this is still happening), and also get rid of anybody in the security high ranks who tries stopping them (Military, Mosad, Shin Bet, Minister of Defence, you name it). Israel is definitely getting worse every day.
5. The ETA for my Romanian nationality application is about 8-10 months, so I won't stay here longer than that.

[Gavin Chipper]

I don't support the Iranian regime, any more than I support Hamas, or the 7/10 attacks on Israel. But I think what we're getting here is potentially another Iraq or Afghanistan situation.

I know that Iran funds the organisations you mention, but I don't think it necessarily controls them, any more than the US controls Israel. Also what has happened after 7/10 from Hezbollah and the Houthis was arguably a response to Israel's immediate onslaught in Gaza after 7/10, rather than I think how you might see it - going all in since Hamas had got the ball rolling.

I know we discussed this previously, and that Hezbollah attacked on 8th October (i.e. very quickly), but Israel's response in Gaza was also very quick and I believe quicker in fact. According to Al Jazeera at least:

In October 2023, Hezbollah launched a rocket campaign on Israel in support of Gaza, which was being bombarded by Israel following a Hamas-led surprise attack on Israel that saw 1,139 people killed and some 250 taken captive. Israel returned fire.

I have heard conflicting reports about the nuclear weapons actually. I know you're not just referencing Netanyahu, but it's worth noting anyway that he has been saying the same thing since the 90s. I also understand that negotiations were ongoing between Iran and the US in any case, but Israel decided to just pull the trigger that they'd been waiting decades to do anyway. Trump then decided he had to get involved for some reason (even though I don't think he really wanted this outcome).

[Gavin Chipper]

I'm not sure if things are different in the US, but I think the average Brit never had any particular "dog in the fight" in the Middle East before 7/10. I think if you asked someone about Israel/Palestine, they'd likely say it was two random Middle Eastern countries fighting each other over religion or land or something.

But then after 7/10, we have our government talking about our allies in Israel, but it's not something anyone here has grown up really thinking was the case. There is nothing in our culture about Israel being "us". This bit is nothing to do with why I'm particularly against Israel, but I think it has made it harder for the government to foist their narrative on us about this.

[Tal Lessner]

I know that Iran funds the organisations you mention, but I don't think it necessarily controls them, any more than the US controls Israel.

Yes they do, US Generals don't sit and dictate strategy to Israel. US Officials don't dictate policy to Israel. Iran does, it is proven and 100% true that Iranian military officials and intelligence were the major part of designing the 7/10. If it wasn't under Iran's directions Hezbollah wouldn't touch Israel on 8/10.
You can't compare Israel/US relations to the ones between Iran and its satellite terrorist organisations.

Also what has happened after 7/10 from Hezbollah and the Houthis was arguably a response to Israel's immediate onslaught in Gaza after 7/10, rather than I think how you might see it - going all in since Hamas had got the ball rolling.

STOP BEING INSANE!!!
If you can consider joining in 24 hours after a terrorist attack as some sort of solidarity in anything other than joining in the Iran's "destruction of the Zionist Entity" you are fucking insane.

but it's worth noting anyway that he has been saying the same thing since the 90s.

Yeah, but in the 90s Iran wasn't an existential threat. They are.

[Gavin Chipper]

I don't see why it's insane tbh.

Edit - Plus the source I gave (whether you like the source or not) still trumps an aggressive assertion from you with no reasoning.

[Gavin Chipper]

Novara Media have done quite a good video on the situation. Iran made a deal with Obama and were not enriching uranium, but then Trump (seemingly arbitrarily) tore it up. Iran started enriching again, but this could have been a negotiating tactic in any case, and negotiations were ongoing. But then Israel just decide to start a war.

[Tal Lessner]

Because it's insane to attribute Hezbollah joining the attack on Israel 24 hours after Hamas' attack as support because of bombardment. I'm sorry, I just can't comprehend how a fully functioning brain could reach this conclusion.


And I'm definitely not going to listen to another one of your insane youtube clips. I know the history well enough (not the one chewed by your favourite Owen Jones & Co loonies), and yeah, without Trump cancelling the old agreement for no apparent reason and against the advise of everybody including IAEA & his own State Department we may not have been in the situation we are now. But 8 years have past since. And since then Iran has made a big progress towards a bomb and escalated its aggression, so again - Fuck them and they had it coming.