Politics in General

[Gavin Chipper]

First of all, Hamas likely exists in the form it does because of the oppression by Israel on the Palestinians for decades. It breeds terrorism. Also far more Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces over the decades than vice versa. Does it make such a difference that Hamas killed a lot of Israeli civilians in one go rather than far more but spread out over a longer period of time?

I've stayed out of this on here because I'm never going to change your mind, but this sounds dangerously close to making excuses for a proscribed terrorist organisation.

More an explanation than excuse.

[Marc Meakin]

If i started a debate about the IRA or the UDF being a terrorist organisation, I would expect Mark James and other people here who have grown up in Ireland or Northern Ireland to have an opinion and it would be legiiiised by that even if I disagreed but what gets the backs up of most Jews are these people defending Hamas without having lived under their rule.
I find it hilarious that Gevs mate Owen Jones being so outspoken as a gay man who would be thrown off the nearest roof in Gaza just for being gay.
Admittedly I have never be to Israel or Palestine so I cannot comment about everything with conviction but being of Jewish decent gives me the right to b outraged about the terrorism targeting mainly civilians.

On a seperated but not altogether unrelated matter I'm curious if the majority of the anti Israel demonstrations are from people under 30?

[Fiona T]

I find it hilarious that Gevs mate Owen Jones being so outspoken as a gay man who would be thrown off the nearest roof in Gaza just for being gay.

citation needed

[Gavin Chipper]

Owen Jones isn't defending Hamas. (Edit - and neither am I by the way.)

Edit - And it's not hard to understand the difference. In the early days of this, the BBC had to apologise for calling a pro-Palestinian rally a pro-Hamas rally. Absolute joke.

[Rhys Benjamin]

I find it hilarious that Gevs mate Owen Jones being so outspoken as a gay man who would be thrown off the nearest roof in Gaza just for being gay.

citation needed

Well, given Hamas have no tall buildings left…

[Fiona T]

I find it hilarious that Gevs mate Owen Jones being so outspoken as a gay man who would be thrown off the nearest roof in Gaza just for being gay.

citation needed

Well, given Hamas have no tall buildings left…

Well yeah there is that.

https://www.humandignitytrust.org/count ... palestine/

"Same-sex sexual activity is prohibited in Gaza under the British Mandate Criminal Code Ordinance 1936. The relevant provision carries a maximum penalty of ten years’ imprisonment. Only men are criminalised under this law.

The law was inherited from the British. It continues to be in operation in Gaza today, though it is not in force elsewhere in Palestine.

There is little evidence of the law being enforced, and it appears to be largely obsolete in practice. However, an incident in 2017 saw an author being threatened with prosecution for writing a novel which included LGBT themes. There do not appear to be any other reports of enforcement of the criminalising law or other laws. Nevertheless, the mere existence of this provision is itself a violation of human rights and underpins further acts of discrimination"

Which, far from being a good situation, is a very long way from people being chucked off buildings. I think Hamas have committed enough atrocities without the need for fabrication.

[Marc Meakin]

Cop 28.
Hopefully in a year or two Electric cars will be more viable, by which I mean every main petrol station will have fast charging ports, the cost of Buying Electric cars will fall

Mind you this doesn't help

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67693935

As a knock on, Electric bikes wil be destructed so you can go at 20 or 30 mph tmwith the caveat that they are insured with number plates mot etd, but the cost of insurance etc would be far less than cars and petrol bikes.

The hot mess of Electric scooters will be sorted out
Going to somewhere like Milton Keynes they are legal on the road as the are hired, so why not make them legal, again with caveat that personal scooters not only should have insurance and indicators and lights compulsory and batteries to be manufactured to EU or British standard and all batteries should be charged in a fire broof and explosion proof case or bag.
Something I had to buy in order to leave my bike safely at work

[Gavin Chipper]

Horsemeat scandal all over again.

[Gavin Chipper]

Cop 28.
Hopefully in a year or two Electric cars will be more viable, by which I mean every main petrol station will have fast charging ports, the cost of Buying Electric cars will fall

Mind you this doesn't help

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67693935

Automatic driving features aren't really related to the concept of electric cars in general though. I think it's also generally accepted that partial automation is the most dangerous option, because when people have to suddenly take over, they're not able to immediately be on the ball.

As a knock on, Electric bikes wil be destructed so you can go at 20 or 30 mph tmwith the caveat that they are insured with number plates mot etd, but the cost of insurance etc would be far less than cars and petrol bikes.

They self-destruct over 20 or 30mph? Interesting option.

[Gavin Chipper]

The IDF's mask has completely slipped now that they've murdered three Israeli released hostages. This is just the tip of the iceberg though. This behaviour happens as a matter of course, but it made the news because they killed citizens of their own country. It would be a pretty massive coincidence if this was actually a rare occurrence and they just happened to kill Israelis on the occasion they happened to go rogue. Sorry Marc, but you're getting an Owen Jones on the subject.

Edit - "Mistakenly killed". Interesting way of putting it.

[Marc Meakin]

Cop 28.
Hopefully in a year or two Electric cars will be more viable, by which I mean every main petrol station will have fast charging ports, the cost of Buying Electric cars will fall

Mind you this doesn't help

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-67693935

Automatic driving features aren't really related to the concept of electric cars in general though. I think it's also generally accepted that partial automation is the most dangerous option, because when people have to suddenly take over, they're not able to immediately be on the ball.

As a knock on, Electric bikes wil be destructed so you can go at 20 or 30 mph tmwith the caveat that they are insured with number plates mot etd, but the cost of insurance etc would be far less than cars and petrol bikes.

They self-destruct over 20 or 30mph? Interesting option.

Doh, I meant derestricted

[Andres Sanchez]

Okay I very much wanna be educated a bit here especially in a space here FOR anything political.

As someone that knows nothing about Judaism other than having friends that are in that religion and a small grasp on what Chanukah is (or however you prefer spelling it) along with a few other Jewish holidays, what is the meaning of being a Zionist and why should the war that's currently happening against Palestine sparking a lot a heated debate?

With simple quick research I've received the idea that Zionism is the idea of the Jewish people wanting to have their own nation, but that's all I'm able to get from that. Other than that I am absolutely lost in what is going on other than that there's a war that's been going on for a while and now is the boiling point of it.

[Fiona T]

Bit of history here Andres

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-44124396

[Marc Meakin]

Bit of history here Andres

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-44124396

There is a YouTube clip with Rory Stewart talking about the history of Israel, it's pretty factual. (not party political)

[Tal Lessner]

what is the meaning of being a Zionist and why should the war that's currently happening against Palestine sparking a lot a heated debate?

With simple quick research I've received the idea that Zionism is the idea of the Jewish people wanting to have their own nation

About the Zionism bit, it's a pointless meaningless term. It's an idea that was formed in the late 19th century, and became pointless once Israel was formed.
So since then, it's just a term used to justify other political stances, mostly fascist, messianic, or racist ones, but also used for more moderate or even leftist opinions.

[Rhys Benjamin]

I don't know why Carol Vorderman became a full-time Twitter troll this year but her victimisation of Johnny Mercer and his wife has been appalling. The threats Johnny and his wife have received on the back of her abuse, and no action taken against Vorderman, is ridiculous.

[Rhys Benjamin]

Okay I very much wanna be educated a bit here especially in a space here FOR anything political.

As someone that knows nothing about Judaism other than having friends that are in that religion and a small grasp on what Chanukah is (or however you prefer spelling it) along with a few other Jewish holidays, what is the meaning of being a Zionist and why should the war that's currently happening against Palestine sparking a lot a heated debate?

With simple quick research I've received the idea that Zionism is the idea of the Jewish people wanting to have their own nation, but that's all I'm able to get from that. Other than that I am absolutely lost in what is going on other than that there's a war that's been going on for a while and now is the boiling point of it.

Zionism, yes, is the belief of a Jewish nation. No more, no less. Pro-Palestine people like to claim being "anti-Zionist" is not antisemitic, but I have always argued it is insofar as you are not calling for the deconstruction of any Muslim country, Pakistan in particular as it was formed in very similar circumstances to Israel.

The IDF have shown viewings to MPs of some of the videos taken by Hamas on 7 October. They are, truly, sickening. My colleague told me they wished everybody could see them but equally they would not want to see them again; the videos are that horrific. So do Israel have a right to respond? 100% yes, and I will not shy away from that, nor apologise for it? Are Israel going about it in the right way? Possibly not. Are the BBC, Sky, and other left-wing media complicit in the huge rise in antisemitism in recent years? Unquestionably. 7 in 10 Jewish people say they feel scared to express their identity in public right now. It is that - not stopping the boats, Mr Lineker - that is comparable to 1930s Germany. "Never again" is now.

Support for Hamas is a terrorist offence in the UK and the police have not been hard enough in enforcing the law.

[Mark James]

I am at that stage where I'm like, just show the fucking videos then. Or, if they are as atrocious as people say, at least describe what happens in them. I guarantee nothing anyone could say would justify the current Israeli response, of which I've actually seen videos of. Even if it was worse than what I have seen happening in Gaza, (including stuff that's happened before October 7), I would still call for a ceasefire. Anyone who asks the question "Are Israel going about it in the right way?" and answers with "Possibly not", is an odious cretin.

[Marc Meakin]

I am at that stage where I'm like, just show the fucking videos then. Or, if they are as atrocious as people say, at least describe what happens in them. I guarantee nothing anyone could say would justify the current Israeli response, of which I've actually seen videos of. Even if it was worse than what I have seen happening in Gaza, (including stuff that's happened before October 7), I would still call for a ceasefire. Anyone who asks the question "Are Israel going about it in the right way?" and answers with "Possibly not", is an odious cretin.

You've only got to look at the 6 day war to see that you don't fuck with Israel Gaza and the West Bank was taken as a result so they could make a fortress around Israel and currently the only way to attack Israel is with terrorist activities az they have the best air defence in the world.
If you couple that with the support of The US and The UK
They really do have virtual carte blanche and with Benny in charge they ain't gonna stop anytime soon
Factor in that Russia is preoccupied, even Iran are unlikely to get involved.

War is Hell, what the British people did to Dresden and What the Americans did to Tokyko (killing more people than the combined nukes) in retaliation doesn't bear thinking about.

Beyond Killing Jews I'm not sure what Hamas hoped to achieve by all this beyond stirring shit up so there could never be a lasting peace in the middle East and creating another global war

[Gavin Chipper]

Zionism, yes, is the belief of a Jewish nation. No more, no less. Pro-Palestine people like to claim being "anti-Zionist" is not antisemitic, but I have always argued it is insofar as you are not calling for the deconstruction of any Muslim country, Pakistan in particular as it was formed in very similar circumstances to Israel.

Well, it's setting up a religious state, and religion =/= race for starters, so it's not racist to criticise that. Setting up a state on religious grounds is not a good idea (not that it would be a good idea to have a state for a certain race either). It applies to any country that has done it. It's just that Israel is in the news more so it naturally gets discussed.

So do Israel have a right to respond? 100% yes, and I will not shy away from that, nor apologise for it? Are Israel going about it in the right way? Possibly not.

I'm not going to respond in the same way as Mark, but this is a very clear understatement - "Possibly not". Plus just saying that they have the right to respond without saying anything more is very much Tory party line (and Labour actually) and doesn't really add to the discussion.

Are the BBC, Sky, and other left-wing media complicit in the huge rise in antisemitism in recent years? Unquestionably.

Why do you think that? And left-wing - OK.

Beyond Killing Jews I'm not sure what Hamas hoped to achieve by all this beyond stirring shit up so there could never be a lasting peace in the middle East and creating another global war

I'm not going to try to understand exactly what was going through the heads of the Hamas nutters, but you could equally ask what Israel was doing suppressing Palestinians for decades. Did they not expect this sort of thing?

I think this attack on Gaza was likely to happen at some point anyway. This was just the trigger - the excuse for the Netanyahu regime to act in this way. Interestingly, Egypt supposedly warned Israel about the attack before it .happened, although Israel deny this. I don't want to go full conspiracy theory and say that Israel wanted this to happen, but rendering Gaza uninhabitable for Palestinians was their likely goal anyway (as Fiona alluded to above). Netanyahu famously showed the UN his new map of the Middle East without Palestine. And Netanyahu has been accused of quoting a genocidal biblical passage.

It happened now because of the Hamas terrorist attack, but you can be pretty sure that the Israeli government had this or something similar to it in their plans anyway. It was just a question of how they were going to engineer it. The Hamas attack provided.

[Marc Meakin]

Gev.
You will be telling me next Churchill knew about Pearl Harbour next.

With regards Benny N ignoring intelligence from Egypt, they have form with their secret service clocking up az mentioned in the film Golda, before the Yom Kippur war they switched off monitoring equipment in error.

I still think the timing of the BBCs legitimate political party/freedom fighters suited them because of the supposed "secret summit between Jews and Saudi hierarchy that was days away

[samir pilica]

What are the prospects of the South Africans succeeding at the ICJ? Does accusing someone of “genocidal acts” bear the same legal weight as accusing them of an outright genocide?

[Marc Meakin]

What are the prospects of the South Africans succeeding at the ICJ? Does accusing someone of “genocidal acts” bear the same legal weight as accusing them of an outright genocide?

Considering South Africa's history in the lady 2 or 3 centuries, one expects it to be laughed at.
Pots and Kettles etc

[Gavin Chipper]

What are the prospects of the South Africans succeeding at the ICJ? Does accusing someone of “genocidal acts” bear the same legal weight as accusing them of an outright genocide?

Considering South Africa's history in the lady 2 or 3 centuries, one expects it to be laughed at.
Pots and Kettles etc

I'm sure most South Africans are aware of the history of their country. I don't think it somehow disqualifies them from criticising what another country is doing now. I don't think those in power now were responsible for Apartheid in the past.

[Andy Wilson]

There have been over 10,000 children killed in this genocide since October. I have no ties to Palestine other than it is inhabited by human beings, but i can’t function as a normal human being while this continues. It’s affecting me pretty badly. I attend the weekly solidarity protests and an left in tears every week.

Your country forbids you from holding their banner in solidarity and anyone who speaks up is viewed as a terrorist supporter. Our own darling Rachel Riley continues her tiresome crusade, using support for Palestine as more ‘evidence’ of anti semitism. She hammered Corbyn and you guys ended up with Brexit. Well done

The Palestinians have been living in an apartheid state and it doesn’t surprise me that they are trying to fight for their rights against, let’s remember, a very far right wing Israeli regime.

Just how though. How are we here? How can the UK be so apathetic to this? Shame on you if you can’t sympathise with the people of Palestine and shame on you if you support this genocide.

They’re wiping out this nation. This won’t ever go away. The Israeli government is never going to be forgiven and this will not be good for the people of Israel. They will be resented for a long time.

I’m gonna go weep for a while now or maybe vomit. I ask you guys who are following the anti Palestine narrative to try and see sense here.

[Andy Wilson]

https://youtu.be/SfDs3eZnPp0?si=WLcuQzvaaxRW-PL0

[Fiona T]

Here's Vorders on public procurement and waste

https://youtu.be/uRG5fIYdrxI

Absolutely shocking

[Phil H]

The threats Johnny and his wife have received on the back of her abuse, and no action taken against Vorderman, is ridiculous.

This particular spat might not be the most important issue, but the idea that a public figure who criticises an elected politician should face criminal sanction, or even be restricted in their use of a social media platform, seems bizarre to say the least.

The only thing I've seen from Vorderman which could, at a stretch, qualify as "abuse" of the Mercers were her comments about them not having degrees - which I agree were dickish, but thankfully for many of us, it's not a crime (or, usually, a website ban offence) to be dickish.

[Fiona T]

The threats Johnny and his wife have received on the back of her abuse, and no action taken against Vorderman, is ridiculous.

This particular spat might not be the most important issue, but the idea that a public figure who criticises an elected politician should face criminal sanction, or even be restricted in their use of a social media platform, seems bizarre to say the least.

The only thing I've seen from Vorderman which could, at a stretch, qualify as "abuse" of the Mercers were her comments about them not having degrees - which I agree were dickish, but thankfully for many of us, it's not a crime (or, usually, a website ban offence) to be dickish.

Yeah haven't seen the Mercer stuff. To clarify, my 'shocking' comment was the content - the amount of money that has just disappeared, the manipulation of truth (lies) and general shit. I have a particular interest in Doug Barrowman who promoted contractor loan schemes (tax avoidance) that have landed lots of people with huge amount of debts to HMRC - the aggressive 'loan charge' has resulted in at least 10 related suicides from (admittedly somewhat naive) people who believed the tax avoidance arrangement he and his like was selling them was legit, although that isn't the content of this video. A thoroughly greedy nasty self-serving couple tho.

[Gavin Chipper]

There have been over 10,000 children killed in this genocide since October. I have no ties to Palestine other than it is inhabited by human beings, but i can’t function as a normal human being while this continues. It’s affecting me pretty badly. I attend the weekly solidarity protests and an left in tears every week.

Your country forbids you from holding their banner in solidarity and anyone who speaks up is viewed as a terrorist supporter. Our own darling Rachel Riley continues her tiresome crusade, using support for Palestine as more ‘evidence’ of anti semitism. She hammered Corbyn and you guys ended up with Brexit. Well done

The Palestinians have been living in an apartheid state and it doesn’t surprise me that they are trying to fight for their rights against, let’s remember, a very far right wing Israeli regime.

Just how though. How are we here? How can the UK be so apathetic to this? Shame on you if you can’t sympathise with the people of Palestine and shame on you if you support this genocide.

They’re wiping out this nation. This won’t ever go away. The Israeli government is never going to be forgiven and this will not be good for the people of Israel. They will be resented for a long time.

I’m gonna go weep for a while now or maybe vomit. I ask you guys who are following the anti Palestine narrative to try and see sense here.

This is a really good post by the way. It's not about having some argument where you're trying to get the better of someone. This is real people and real lives. And the Netanyahu regime has been doing all this with the support of the US and UK.

[Andy Wilson]

Thank you.

This is not a war. The Palestinians resorted to terrorism as a way of resisting a land grab.

There’s no coming back from this. Israel is trying to wipe them out. How can they exist as neighbours after this? Israel knows this.

Ireland endured persecution and invasion from England. Ireland resorted to terrorism as the civil rights of its people were denied. Before things got too out of hand we managed to de-escalate a lose lose situation that brought so much pain and terror. We are living next door. I’m a patriotic Irish guy and I love England and it’s people.

If it wasn’t for our relationship with the USA this might have been impossible. The UK and the USA are saying go ahead to Israel. Sure it’s only a few Arabs.

I despair.

[Marc Meakin]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/67807719
This is ridiculous, there is no advantage in pool

[Fiona T]

This is not a war. The Palestinians resorted to terrorism as a way of resisting a land grab.

What Hamas did is inexcusable and unjustifiable. Please don't legitimise it.

(What Israel are now doing is also inexcusable and unjustifiable. Two wrongs don't make a right)

Edit: Petition here https://www.oxfam.org.uk/get-involved/c ... efire-now/

[Gavin Chipper]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/67807719
This is ridiculous, there is no advantage in pool

OK, so for context:

A transgender pool champion says she received "vile" and "horrific" abuse online after her opponent refused to play her in a final.

Pinches said she did it out of "fairness", claiming transgender women have a competitive advantage.

Haynes disagrees with Pinches' stance and says the sport's authorities agree with her (Haynes).

"The world governing body.... looked into this, and couldn't find any evidence," Haynes told BBC Sport Wales.

"They didn't agree that males have an inherent advantage over females (in cue sports)."

Well, I think this is really just an argument for not having separate male and female tournaments.

[Marc Meakin]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/wales/67807719
This is ridiculous, there is no advantage in pool

OK, so for context:

A transgender pool champion says she received "vile" and "horrific" abuse online after her opponent refused to play her in a final.

Pinches said she did it out of "fairness", claiming transgender women have a competitive advantage.

Haynes disagrees with Pinches' stance and says the sport's authorities agree with her (Haynes).

"The world governing body.... looked into this, and couldn't find any evidence," Haynes told BBC Sport Wales.

"They didn't agree that males have an inherent advantage over females (in cue sports)."

Well, I think this is really just an argument for not having separate male and female tournaments.

I think if those born as men have an unfair advantage in a sport that is not strength or speed related then all sports and games are fair game for this attitude.
Scrabble and FOCAL included.
I'm being flippant, of course but I think men only have an unfair advantage as more compete as they are less restricted than female parents for example in cue sports at least

[Jon O'Neill]

If there's no advantage, then why is the women's #1 ranked #118 in the open rankings?
The answer to this question is the reason why there's a protected category, regardless of size, strength, speed and power advantages.

[Marc Meakin]

If there's no advantage, then why is the women's #1 ranked #118 in the open rankings?
The answer to this question is the reason why there's a protected category, regardless of size, strength, speed and power advantages.

Its not a level playing field in the same way that there are less established composers, artists and in enters that were women.
How many Women play pool compared to men?

[Marc Meakin]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-67922410
About fucking time

[Jon O'Neill]

If there's no advantage, then why is the women's #1 ranked #118 in the open rankings?
The answer to this question is the reason why there's a protected category, regardless of size, strength, speed and power advantages.

Its not a level playing field in the same way that there are less established composers, artists and in enters that were women.
How many Women play pool compared to men?

Yes. That is the answer.

[Fiona T]

Neither Scrabble nor Focal have women's categories so it's not an issue. Whether they should or not could be debated, although personally I am not a fan!

In the past, Countdown have had a ladies' championship - I can see some merit in encouraging more women to play/apply, but it does send a message that "women can't compete with men" (the likes of Florence shows they clearly can!). Having said that, if there's another, then sign me up!

[Marc Meakin]

We used to have men v Ladies competitions in Scrabble and it was a fairly even affair given it wasn't a rated event so the elite players didn't always play.
It might be something worth considering for focal but it's probably not a popular idea.
Doing a bit of research I would say women are probably better than men at more graceful sports like gymnastics.
Also shooting competitions are quite even

[Gavin Chipper]

On the pool thing, if it's just that fewer women play than men, then there's no need for a separate women's category on the basis of fairness, but there could still be interest/demand anyway, and I don't think it's necessarily too outrageous to have a women's category. In any case, while there might not be an obvious physical reason why women can't compete with men at the top level, human biology is complex and it's not ruled that that there might be non-obvious reasons why males tend to be better (and obviously vice versa in certain things). That being the case, if you are going to have a female category, it does make sense to base it on sex rather than gender identity.

[Marc Meakin]

On the pool thing, if it's just that fewer women play than men, then there's no need for a separate women's category on the basis of fairness, but there could still be interest/demand anyway, and I don't think it's necessarily too outrageous to have a women's category. In any case, while there might not be an obvious physical reason why women can't compete with men at the top level, human biology is complex and it's not ruled that that there might be non-obvious reasons why males tend to be better (and obviously vice versa in certain things). That being the case, if you are going to have a female category, it does make sense to base it on sex rather than gender identity.

I think the thought of a man being bested by a woman being a bit embarrassing is still a thing.
Im sure it was a reason why women's football in this country was not ratified by the FA for years.

Interestingly football is virtually a non contact sport nowadays and I can see the day when a men v women match might happen if only as a charity event

[Gavin Chipper]

As well as being America's lapdog in joining in with the attacks on the Houthis, Rishi Sunak has spoken out against South Africa's case against Israel.

A spokesperson for UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak said Mr Sunak believed South Africa's case was "completely unjustified and wrong."

"The UK government stands by Israel's clear right to defend itself within the framework of international law," he said.

He's going all in on this, but I think he's going to end up on the wrong side of history.

Edit - Plus he shouldn't really be commenting on ongoing court cases in such a manner. It's unprofessional.

[Rhys Benjamin]

As well as being America's lapdog in joining in with the attacks on the Houthis, Rishi Sunak has spoken out against South Africa's case against Israel.

A spokesperson for UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak said Mr Sunak believed South Africa's case was "completely unjustified and wrong."

"The UK government stands by Israel's clear right to defend itself within the framework of international law," he said.

He's going all in on this, but I think he's going to end up on the wrong side of history.

Edit - Plus he shouldn't really be commenting on ongoing court cases in such a manner. It's unprofessional.

Not sure how you can get every single word of a post as wrong as you have just done.

I typed out a long response to this, then realised it wasn’t worth it.

[Gavin Chipper]

As well as being America's lapdog in joining in with the attacks on the Houthis, Rishi Sunak has spoken out against South Africa's case against Israel.

A spokesperson for UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak said Mr Sunak believed South Africa's case was "completely unjustified and wrong."

"The UK government stands by Israel's clear right to defend itself within the framework of international law," he said.

He's going all in on this, but I think he's going to end up on the wrong side of history.

Edit - Plus he shouldn't really be commenting on ongoing court cases in such a manner. It's unprofessional.

Not sure how you can get every single word of a post as wrong as you have just done.

I typed out a long response to this, then realised it wasn’t worth it.

But then you rendered your post pointless.

[Gavin Chipper]

Just to add to the above, Sunak speaking out in that way suggests delusions of grandeur. His opinion is irrelevant. The ICJ is much bigger than him in this regard.

[Marc Meakin]

Just to add to the above, Sunak speaking out in that way suggests delusions of grandeur. His opinion is irrelevant. The ICJ is much bigger than him in this regard.

This means nothing to me.
I have delusions of Midge Ure

[Gavin Chipper]

This is a very good song by Biden and Netenyahu.

[Gavin Chipper]

If anyone was still in any doubt over whether what Israel is doing is reasonable or not, even the Tories (specifically the guy off the street they recruited to be foreign secretary) are having doubts over the latest move to attack Rafah.

Edit - And Biden as well.

[Rhys Benjamin]

"I wasn't a vile antisemite, I just fell for an online hoax."

Well that's all right then, Mr Ali...

[Gavin Chipper]

Well actually believing something about what the Israeli government might have done is not racist, and so not anti-Semitic. The same standards apply across the board. Criticising a government, even if not based in truth, does not make one a racist, whatever the country is. Israel does not have special status in this regard.

Having said that, it can come from a racist mindset but it doesn't have to.

[Gavin Chipper]

Here's a thing. I think the term anti-Semitic (or antisemitic) is generally not a good one to use. If someone is racist against black people, they are racist. If they are racist against Asian people, they are racist. But if they are racist against Jewish people, they are anti-Semitic. Why does it matter? Well, it allows people to "weaponise" the term and sneakily import rules that wouldn't apply to racism in general, and that's what people do all the time. So just ask yourself when someone is using the term, would it make sense if they used the word "racist" instead.

You'd never get away with just shouting "Racist!" at someone for criticising a country's government. But somehow you can call them anti-Semitic and it sticks.

[Marc Meakin]

Here's a thing. I think the term anti-Semitic (or antisemitic) is generally not a good one to use. If someone is racist against black people, they are racist. If they are racist against Asian people, they are racist. But if they are racist against Jewish people, they are anti-Semitic. Why does it matter? Well, it allows people to "weaponise" the term and sneakily import rules that wouldn't apply to racism in general, and that's what people do all the time. So just ask yourself when someone is using the term, would it make sense if they used the word "racist" instead.

You'd never get away with just shouting "Racist!" at someone for criticising a country's government. But somehow you can call them anti-Semitic and it sticks.

You can be anti zionist but not an anti semite
There is a Jews against Zionism group
The same as beeing anti Nazi and not anti German

[Tal Lessner]

You can be anti zionist but not an anti semite
There is a Jews against Zionism group
The same as beeing anti Nazi and not anti German

Anti Zionism nowadays is almost as meaningless as Zionism. And in both cases, it's usually just some term to hide behind some fascist, racist or just ignorant agendas.

Well actually believing something about what the Israeli government might have done is not racist

Yup, that's true, question is whether the will to believe and express this bull crap isn't rooted in racsim beyond just general stupidity and populism. Didn't know this Ali guy until this week, so no idea.

Here's a thing. I think the term anti-Semitic (or antisemitic) is generally not a good one to use.

Here I disagree. The fact that there's a certain term for a specific sub group of a more general group isn't a problem. The anti- prefix isn't reserved only for Jews, but many other groups, races, religions, so being specific isn't a problem here at all and doesn't imply that it's different from other forms of racism.
The only problem with the term is its inaccuracy. The Semitic peoples also include other races (including arabs). And in fact, the original use (mid 19th century) did refer it as hatred/superiority against Semitic peoples and not specifically Jews.

[Tal Lessner]

And about the ongoing war, I think people have to remember that one side is led by an insane narcissists, who doesn't seem to care about his own people or in conducting the war to some conclusion, knowing that if the war ends now, he's politically dead. So his actions are purely political, against the interest of his own people or ending the conflict. Placing his insane blind followers in key positions and giving power to Nazi terrorists.

And the other side is led by Sinwar.

[Gavin Chipper]

Here I disagree. The fact that there's a certain term for a specific sub group of a more general group isn't a problem. The anti- prefix isn't reserved only for Jews, but many other groups, races, religions, so being specific isn't a problem here at all and doesn't imply that it's different from other forms of racism.
The only problem with the term is its inaccuracy. The Semitic peoples also include other races (including arabs). And in fact, the original use (mid 19th century) did refer it as hatred/superiority against Semitic peoples and not specifically Jews.

I think part of the problem is not just that there is a separate term, but the name. There is also e.g. Islamophobia, but it hasn't gained the same traction as a way of attempting to discredit someone.

With antisemitism, as well as being inaccurate, it's quite opaque. Most people don't know what it means to be Semitic. So when someone is called antisemitic, that makes it harder to counter for someone who isn't necessarily well versed in things.

So a separate term like anti-Jewish, or anti-Jewish racist, would work better and be more transparent and possibly harder to weaponise.

[Tal Lessner]

I don't think the term antisemitism is a problem. It is literally inaccurate, but it has taken the known meaning of racism against Jews. So no problem and the term itself doesn't make it more weaponisable than any other term representing hate towards a certain group.

About antisemitism used to counter anti Israeli sentiments, I agree with you, and it's a way to dismiss valid points against the government of Israel.
But... it also works in the other direction, many people who claim to not be racist and only criticise Israel, actually express pure antisemite opinions. Recent example are some heads of Ivy League universities unable to say that calling for a genocide against Jews is a hate crime. Or just people on social media (even peace seeking nice people on my FB for example) having a valid post against Israeli war crimes in Gaza / occupation of the west bank, but then ending it with the "From the river to the sea" phrase which is basically a call for an ethnic cleansing of Jews in Israel.

[Gavin Chipper]

Or just people on social media (even peace seeking nice people on my FB for example) having a valid post against Israeli war crimes in Gaza / occupation of the west bank, but then ending it with the "From the river to the sea" phrase which is basically a call for an ethnic cleansing of Jews in Israel.

This is controversial though. I don't think it's the case at all that everyone using the phrase is using it to mean this. However, given that it is taken by many to be an antisemitic phrase, it is probably best avoided anyway, because any point you're trying to make will likely get missed while you defend yourself against such accusations.

The Guardian discusses it here. And the New York Times. I think it's best described as complicated.

[Tal Lessner]

I think it's best described as a clear call for the destruction of the state of Israel. Either just a "soft" destruction of the regime, or outright ethnic cleansing, doesn't matter.

Making out new complicated meanings to defend idiots? I pass.