Non-arrogant Graeme wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:43 am
This comment makes neither humour nor sense
to me.
Never mind all that though. There are far more interesting things to discuss.
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This discussion has piqued my interest.
It underlines the long-running struggle co-events have had as regards the lack of a top class definitive engine with which to run them.
Obviously the answer should be (and should have been for at least a decade...) APTEROUS.
This ticket should really have helped bring that functionality to Apto, but alas no. Not yet.
So what is there, and -given that none of them are perfect- which is the best to use?
1. Atropine
Graeme's python-enabled application is built for tournament use, and is an invaluable resource. There isn't really anything else that can do the job of setting the fixtures, inputting results, and displaying standings as intuitively. Its only real downside is its unsuitability for running QF, SF and Final stages.
2. Apterous
Charlie's site has no template or facility to specifically assist tournament directors in running events. In spite of that, it is still pretty damn good as an engine for running tournaments. Downsides include the very specific game set up that is required, and also the inflexibility around numbers rounds (only one selection type possible per numbers round) and conundrums (you are stuck with whatever is randomly generated... no scope to set themed cons)
3. Countdown Picker
Matt's spreadsheets have been a staple at many of the early co:events I attended (i.e. 2015/2016). But its letters distribution is weird and too dissimilar from the TV show for my likings. The innovation in version 6 whereby the numbers picker features all 5 selections onscreen at one time... is unparalleled and still definitely something worth using.
4. Incoherency
Easy to use, and not bad at all really. This could be used to run an event. One of its best features is that all the maxes, the maxes-1, the maxes-2 etc. are displayed at the end of the round. Obviously all of this is rendered useless by how wrong the dictionary is.
5. Webrack
I don't know enough about this, and no-one has used it for running an event yet... but maybe in the future it will be the one to rule them all and in the darkness bind them? It certainly revolutionised Zoomdown. Maybe it can do the same for the in-person scene?
6. Countdown App
Or maybe that little App that Jack built is the future? Its current limitations for use at co-events have been explored above in some detail. No point retreading that ground. But this has potential, depending on how much new functionality can be coded into it, and whether it stays permanently trapped as android only.
7. Board game
The little cards as found in the CD board game, remain a weirdly popular option. I suppose the hands on is nice, and handy if there is one person (needlessly imo) missing out on playing every 3rd game so they can host. But the lack of the correct deduplication make these a poor choice for offering the realistic CD experience.
8. Actual tiles
These were used at MK and also at Co:Dub 2019 (and possibly some other events around that time?). Aside from being a labour intensive and cumbersome option, these were good fun... and the selections were mostly realistic, though they suffer from the same deduplication problem as the cards.
9. Conundrum Powerpoint
Robbo's conundrum powerpoint (as used at Co:NE, Co:Gal and Co:Wat 2022) is quite user friendly, easy to use, and it looks great. Very useful for setting themed cons. Its one downside is that letters must be inputted one by one in a painstaking fashion. There has to be a better way of doing that bit.
10. Other
Anything else that might be used (e.g. other official or unofficial CD apps etc) cannot rival the first 9 items on this list, so aren't worth discussing.
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Based on this analysis, my current solution is to use a healthy mixture of #1, #2, #3, #9.
Atropine for fixture generation and results entry.
Apterous to generate letters rounds.
Countdown Picker to generate numbers rounds.
Conundrum Powerpoint for conundrums.
This video from co:wat shows a great example of all of those being used in tandem to run a 9R game.
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Another thing that jumps to mind while reading the discussion is how shortchanged people get with these 'Lincoln*-style' co-events. If 9 games are played, why can't everyone get 9 games? 6 is way too few. Certainly not worth travelling from Ireland for imo. The classroom style event is so much better. It should be the dominant format.
I know there is a school of thought around co-events where "it's not the Countdown that matters, it's the pub after!!!" (and similar wishy washy sentiments.) STRONGLY DISAGREE... if I go to a co-event, I want there to be as much Countdown as is humanly possible crammed into the day. Screw park runs, screw long lunches and screw the pub. Anything that takes time from gameplay is unwelcome, and that includes having to host every other game.
Another co:event gripe... what is the obsession with 9Rers?! It is an obsolete version of the game and has been for over 2 decades now. Let it go. 15R is where the modern game is at. If you feel compelled to play short games, then why not do a short form of the 15Rer? A 7-and-a-half rounder consisting of 5 letters rounds, 2 numbers and a conundrum that is only worth 5pts, would fit the bill nicely!
At co-events using 9Rers, conundrum specialists enjoy an advantage that players of the real game have not enjoyed since the turn of the millennium! That should definitely change.
*Get used to it, Gev! 
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