Veganism Discussion

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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Sam Cappleman-Lynes »

Here's another interesting story
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Another interesting news story, this one perhaps a window into the debate around speciesism.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Marc Meakin »

Just to play Devils avacado.
I wondo how many vegans are going to Glastonbury knowing full well this is the site of a working dairy farm?
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Marc Meakin wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:45 pm Just to play Devils avacado.
I wondo how many vegans are going to Glastonbury knowing full well this is the site of a working dairy farm?
The devil's really struggling for peril this week.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Marc Meakin wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:45 pm Devils avacado.
:lol:
Marc Meakin wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:45 pm I wondo how many vegans are going to Glastonbury knowing full well this is the site of a working dairy farm?
Unless there's something more to the link between the festival and the dairy farm (e.g. If the explicit purpose of the festival is to fund the dairy farm, which seems unlikely), I don't think there's anything in this. Similar to the argument of how vegans shouldn't buy the plant-based burgers from McDonalds/Burger King because by giving those companies business they're funding their meat trade. That argument doesn't hold water for me.

Buying a Glastonbury ticket (or a McPlant) tells the dairy farm (or McDonald's) that there are paying customers who will buy their festival tickets (or plant-based burgers) but not necessarily their dairy products (or meat products). It doesn't endorse the other things the recipient of the money sells, in my opinion. Taken to the logical extreme, this same argument would say vegans can't shop at supermarkets either because they sell animal products.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Marc Meakin »

I guess only radical vegans would boycott Glasto like Morrissey and Chrissie Hynde.

You make valid points, Meakin tangent alert, I often have disagreements with friends on movie sites who won't watch Polanski films or Spacey films because of their private lives.
But i can seperated art from the artist
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Marc Meakin wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:49 pm I guess only radical vegans would boycott Glasto like Morrissey
Erm, he's played there at least three times.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Yeah, not as weird as drinking cow's milk though, right? No sane adult actually drinks milk - like as a drink - anyway. It's horrible. In my glacial move towards veganism, I've long since moved away from putting it on cereal as well. I use Oatly for that. But obviously I still eat stuff that has milk in - mainly cheese to be honest, but I don't eat as much of that as I used to.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Gavin Chipper wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:00 pm
Yeah, not as weird as drinking cow's milk though, right? No sane adult actually drinks milk - like as a drink - anyway. It's horrible. In my glacial move towards veganism, I've long since moved away from putting it on cereal as well. I use Oatly for that. But obviously I still eat stuff that has milk in - mainly cheese to be honest, but I don't eat as much of that as I used to.
Is it weird for adults to eat cheese made from human breast milk? :)
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Callum Todd wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 3:36 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 2:00 pm
Yeah, not as weird as drinking cow's milk though, right? No sane adult actually drinks milk - like as a drink - anyway. It's horrible. In my glacial move towards veganism, I've long since moved away from putting it on cereal as well. I use Oatly for that. But obviously I still eat stuff that has milk in - mainly cheese to be honest, but I don't eat as much of that as I used to.
Is it weird for adults to eat cheese made from human breast milk? :)
Eating cheese made from human milk and from cow's milk are both weird in their own ways.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Fiona T »

I do remember this story from a few years back
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12569011
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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[quote="Fiona T" post_id=200274 time=1657836364 user_id=91185]
I do remember this story from a few years back
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12569011
[/quote]

You find them next to the placenta burgers 🤮
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Marc Meakin wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:49 am 🤮
Indeed. Imagine eating ice cream made from someone's milk; how disgusting! Unless of course that someone was imprisoned, tortured, and killed. Then it's fine, and delicious!
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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I think there is something to be said though about the "weirdness" coming from it being your own species. And is it any weirder to drink cow's milk than to eat their meat? And also lactase persistence is thing that has evolved relatively recently so you could say that humans (lots of them anyway) evolved to drink cow's milk.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Gavin Chipper wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:58 am I think there is something to be said though about the "weirdness" coming from it being your own species. And is it any weirder to drink cow's milk than to eat their meat?
I think a guy in the video tried to make a similar point, by comparing eating cows vs. cannibalism. With milk though I'm not so sure as it absolutely is natural and totally unweird for humans to drink human milk... as babies. The only weird thing about it as adults is the age. Whereas with humans drinking other mammals' milk it's weird at any age.
Gavin Chipper wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:58 am ... you could say that humans (lots of them anyway) evolved to drink cow's milk.
Lots, but not most! I think a majority of humans today are lactose intolerant in adulthood.

Obviously all the above only covers 'weirdness', and doesn't necessarily have any bearing whatsoever upon the ethics of consuming human milk vs. others mammals' milk.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Sam Cappleman-Lynes »

Interesting how the entire article is framed in terms of the environmental impact.

I think environmental concern has become a "socially acceptable" reason for adopting (at least partially) vegan practices whereas you get funny looks if you're one of the "militant" vegans who focus on animal welfare. Although admittedly I'm basing that perception on a relatively small sample.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Yeah, hence my posting it in this thread rather than the one more focused on animal abuse.

I think environmentalism rather than animal welfare as a reason for eschewing animal problems* is more "socially acceptable" to talk about partially because environmentalism is already a topic that people are familiar with (to varying degrees): anyone who has more than one colour of wheelie bin is aware of the concept of recycling, anyone who has driven a car in certain cities or on certain stretches of motorway will be aware of emission-reducing traffic schemes, anyone who shops at a supermarket will have noticed the gradual decline of single-use plastic shopping bags in favour of reusable 'bags for life', etc. Whereas (tragically) very few people ever have a serious conversation about animal welfare, particularly about the welfare of animals other than humans, cats, and dogs.

Also it's easier to respond to the problems with animal farming with a 'reduceitarian' approach when framed in terms of environmentalism, whereas animal welfare is more of a black and white case that puts more pressure on people to completely eliminate their problematic habits rather than merely reducing them. 'I have reduced my emissions' sounds a lot nicer than 'I have reduced the financial support I routinely offer to the imprisonment, torture, and killing of sentient beings.'
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Callum Todd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:11 am Yeah, hence my posting it in this thread rather than the one more focused on animal abuse.

I think environmentalism rather than animal welfare as a reason for eschewing animal problems* is more "socially acceptable" to talk about partially because environmentalism is already a topic that people are familiar with (to varying degrees): anyone who has more than one colour of wheelie bin is aware of the concept of recycling, anyone who has driven a car in certain cities or on certain stretches of motorway will be aware of emission-reducing traffic schemes, anyone who shops at a supermarket will have noticed the gradual decline of single-use plastic shopping bags in favour of reusable 'bags for life', etc. Whereas (tragically) very few people ever have a serious conversation about animal welfare, particularly about the welfare of animals other than humans, cats, and dogs.

Also it's easier to respond to the problems with animal farming with a 'reduceitarian' approach when framed in terms of environmentalism, whereas animal welfare is more of a black and white case that puts more pressure on people to completely eliminate their problematic habits rather than merely reducing them. 'I have reduced my emissions' sounds a lot nicer than 'I have reduced the financial support I routinely offer to the imprisonment, torture, and killing of sentient beings.'
Well not entirely - many of the practices that contribute to animal suffering are caused by intense farming practices - if everyone were to reduce their consumption, then the welfare of farm animals would be improved - hard to see that as a bad thing.

As long as cows are being slaughtered for meat, then using the leather seems the right thing to do.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Fiona T wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:20 pm
[...] many of the practices that contribute to animal suffering are caused by intense farming practices - if everyone were to reduce their consumption, then the welfare of farm animals would be improved - hard to see that as a bad thing.
Certainly less intensive farming would reduce suffering, and yes that reduction is hard to see as a bad thing. But it's hard to seriously envision a realistic system of profit-driven animal farming that doesn't cause suffering to the animals farmed, even if on a much smaller scale. So I think it would be more accurate to say 'the suffering of farm animals would be reduced' rather than the 'welfare of farm animals would be improved' as really what we are talking about here is decreasing the effect of a negative thing, not increasing the effect of a positive thing.

Therefore, while reducing consumption of animal problems* certainly reduces harm, any consumption still likely causes harm. That's the difference I was aiming to highlight between an animal welfare framing of the issue vs an environmentalist framing. You could reduce animal product consumption to the point where any environmental damage is negligible or reversible. I don't think you could (realistically) do so to make the animal suffering negligible, and if course it won't be reversible.
Fiona T wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:20 pm As long as cows are being slaughtered for meat, then using the leather seems the right thing to do.
If we take cow slaughter as a given than yeah I suppose it's wasteful to dispose of the leftover biomatter, potentially in an environmentally harmful way. But I don't think we should take it as a given, it should be stopped. And using it as the basis of yet another product trade will be an obstacle to stopping it, so let's not. Also you could make the same utilitarian argument for the skins of any other deceased animals; shouldn't we skin the corpses of deceased cats, dogs, and humans too so we can make footballs and sofas out of them? Surely not as people would find that distasteful. Well maybe they should find it distasteful to sit on or kick about the mistreated remains of a cow as well.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Callum Todd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:52 pm McPlant is McGone.
The McPlant wasn’t truly vegan or vegetarian. It was a (delicious-looking, sorry) Beyond Meat patty topped with melty American cheese and sweet mayonnaise that’s sandwiched between a preservative-packed bun. Though the burgers themselves are vegan, they’re cooked on the same grill as McDonald’s regular beef patties. Some flexitarian customers might not mind a bit of beef juice mingling with their alternative pea protein, but it’s hardly compelling enough to attract the diehards.
This just seems stupid. They do do vegan options though don't they? So why not make this thing vegan? Half measures like this won't get you anywhere. I'm pretty sure that Burger King did something similarly stupid a few years ago and it didn't end well. Yeah, it was this.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Fiona T »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:14 pm
Callum Todd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:52 pm McPlant is McGone.
The McPlant wasn’t truly vegan or vegetarian. It was a (delicious-looking, sorry) Beyond Meat patty topped with melty American cheese and sweet mayonnaise that’s sandwiched between a preservative-packed bun. Though the burgers themselves are vegan, they’re cooked on the same grill as McDonald’s regular beef patties. Some flexitarian customers might not mind a bit of beef juice mingling with their alternative pea protein, but it’s hardly compelling enough to attract the diehards.
This just seems stupid. They do do vegan options though don't they? So why not make this thing vegan? Half measures like this won't get you anywhere. I'm pretty sure that Burger King did something similarly stupid a few years ago and it didn't end well. Yeah, it was this.
Yeah I think that's somewhat inaccurate

https://www.mcdonalds.com/gb/en-gb/late ... plant.html
How will you control the risk of cross-contamination with meat?
McPlant is cooked separately from other McDonald’s burgers and sandwiches, using dedicated equipment to ensure it doesn’t come into contact with meat products.

How is the plant based patty cooked in restaurant?
The plant based patty is cooked in an oven, not on the grill. While meat products are also cooked in the oven, this will not be at the same time or using the same equipment as McPlant. McPlant uses specific equipment, including oven trays and tongs, so it will not come into contact with meat products, and the ovens and equipment are cleaned regularly.
The "melty American cheese and sweet mayonnaise" are (were) both vegan.

Having tried it a few times it was very tasty and there's no reason why it should not have been a success.

IMO it failed because it was too expensive. You could buy a cheeseburger for 99p, the McPlant was £3.something
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Also what self respecting vegan is going to buy a product cooked on the same grill as meat.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Marc Meakin wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:39 pm Also what self respecting vegan is going to buy a product cooked on the same grill as meat.
yeah, they weren't.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Yeah unless the McPlant was different in America that part of the article is either inaccurate or very poorly worded. The cheese and sandwich sauce(/'mayo') on the McPlants in the UK at least were vegan. I don't know if they were cooked on the same grill as the other burgers in the UK but I suspect they were, can't imagine it making sense for an efficiency-obsessed business such as McDonalds to have an entire grill in their kitchen dedicated to just one item on their fairly wide menu. For what it's worth I really don't the 'same grill as meat' thing is a big ethical issue, just a bit of a weird/squeamish issue once you stop seeing a burger and calling it 'meat' and therefore food, and start calling it 'corpse' and therefore gross, which can happen quite easily and quickly once you stop eating the stuff.

I think it's a valid point that two of the major reasons that push people towards veganism are ethical concerns - including environmentalism - and personal health, and that these reasons are likely to lead to the people not wanting to support a business such as McDonalds or eat something as unhealthy as a processed burger, even if the McPlant was both vegan and tasty. Personally I think that if by purchasing a McPlant you would send a marketing message to the McDonalds bigwigs that there's a market for plant-based options it was worth doing so. Fast food like theirs is such processed junk that surely they could ditch the animal problems* and go plant-based anyway while still keeping their food cheap and tasty, and a giant company like McDonalds ditching animal protein would be a huge win for animals and the planet. Oh well, looks like not enough messages were sent/heard.

But yeah, the McPlant was unusually expensive and that was probably a big put-off. I reckon they could have made it much cheaper; other fast food outlets have vegan versions at similar prices to the animal versions.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Thanks for the clarification, Fiona. There's also this bit in the article:
While the McPlant is apparently thriving in international markets like the U.K. and Austria, American customers were not about it, with some rural stores selling as few as three burgers a day.
Also, a quick Google found a few articles that said the US test has ended - e.g. this one. I wonder if they gave been prepared differently in different places, and whether it will continue in the UK. Though I'm pretty sure it could have worked in many places in America anyway.

Edit - Callum's just posted as I write this, but I'll just post as is anyway.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Callum Todd wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:52 pm McPlant is McGone.
It's still here in my local McDonalds in South Norfolk as of Friday.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Grabs popcorn 😊
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Marc Meakin wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:52 pm Grabs popcorn 😊
You could instead grab a McPlant while they're still available.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Marc Meakin wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:52 pm Grabs popcorn 😊
I hope it's not buttered! :)
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Just because someone mentioned environmental impact of transporting food elsewhere: Follow the Food
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Callum Todd wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:23 am Just because someone mentioned environmental impact of transporting food elsewhere: Follow the Food
What percentage of the food you eat (as a vegan) do you think is imported?, it significantly higher than that of a non-vegan.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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This recent article from New Scientist says that the emissions involved in growing your food is far more important than the food miles. Here's a brief excerpt:
What this means is that if you want to reduce the carbon footprint of your diet, you should focus on buying foods with lower overall carbon footprints rather than those that don’t have to travel far. This basically means eating less meat and dairy.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Callum Todd wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:23 am Just because someone mentioned environmental impact of transporting food elsewhere: Follow the Food
That's a pretty poor calculator. You have to select exactly one from each category, regardless of whether you consume zero or more than one. It would be much better if you could just put in exactly what you want to put in.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:16 pm
Callum Todd wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:23 am Just because someone mentioned environmental impact of transporting food elsewhere: Follow the Food
That's a pretty poor calculator. You have to select exactly one from each category, regardless of whether you consume zero or more than one. It would be much better if you could just put in exactly what you want to put in.
It's not great for working out emissions from your own personal diet but if you play around with it a bit it presents the data comparing different foods very well.
Gavin Chipper wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:01 pm This recent article from New Scientist says that the emissions involved in growing your food is far more important than the food miles. Here's a brief excerpt:
What this means is that if you want to reduce the carbon footprint of your diet, you should focus on buying foods with lower overall carbon footprints rather than those that don’t have to travel far. This basically means eating less meat and dairy.
Yeah one massive question that's neglected when people talk about 'vegan food (Carrots? Potatoes? Bread? Rice? Mangoes?)' travelling more miles than our good ol' British Beef is not just how far did your food travel but how far did your food's food travel? In the case of most animals reared for their flesh in the UK, they eat a lot of soy (quite a bit more than a human would need to eat directly to gain equal nutritional intake to eating the resulting animal flesh) often from South America.

Animal feed is so overlooked that any argument for meat-eating that highlights problems with plant farming (and there are some very real ones) is self-defeating as eating meat entails more plant farming than eating plants. If you think plant farming is bad or harmful the best way to reduce it is to stop eating animal products!
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Marc Meakin wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:29 pm A game changer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-64381704
I've seen lab grown meat talked about for a while. It's a matter of bringing the cost down so that's it's reasonable for people to actually buy.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Gavin Chipper wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:23 pm
Marc Meakin wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:29 pm A game changer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-64381704
I've seen lab grown meat talked about for a while. It's a matter of bringing the cost down so that's it's reasonable for people to actually buy.
Hopefully mass production will bring the cost down.
If it tastes as good as chicken then people will buy it
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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Marc Meakin wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:08 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:23 pm
Marc Meakin wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:29 pm A game changer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-64381704
I've seen lab grown meat talked about for a while. It's a matter of bringing the cost down so that's it's reasonable for people to actually buy.
Hopefully mass production will bring the cost down.
If it tastes as good as chicken then people will buy it
I thought the joke was that everything tastes like chicken, being the most boring, bland and generic of the meats.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Fiona T »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:11 pm
Marc Meakin wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:08 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:23 pm

I've seen lab grown meat talked about for a while. It's a matter of bringing the cost down so that's it's reasonable for people to actually buy.
Hopefully mass production will bring the cost down.
If it tastes as good as chicken then people will buy it
I thought the joke was that everything tastes like chicken, being the most boring, bland and generic of the meats.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

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My friend was employed by a lab-based meat company last year.

He told me that the big guys in the business had done a brilliant job of winning over investors and pumping in lots of money but they were actually still very far away from a finished product, inconsistently creating minimal quantities of very expensive stuff
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Callum Todd »

Graeme Souness mentioning ethics as the main reason for not eating meat again on Sky Sports during their eco focus. Go on Graeme! Unlikely champion of ethical veganism on sports TV! :D
Mark Deeks wrote:Callum Todd looks like a young Ted Bundy.
Marc Meakin
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Marc Meakin »

Callum Todd wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:38 pm Graeme Souness mentioning ethics as the main reason for not eating meat again on Sky Sports during their eco focus. Go on Graeme! Unlikely champion of ethical veganism on sports TV! :D
Strange platform to discuss veganism
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Fiona T
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Fiona T »

Marc Meakin wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:27 pm
Strange platform to discuss veganism
c4c?
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Marc Meakin »

Fiona T wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:32 pm
Marc Meakin wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:27 pm
Strange platform to discuss veganism
c4c?
Sky Sports, we at least have an off topic platform here.
Nothing off limits here
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Marc Meakin
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Marc Meakin »

I'm off to a scrabble tournament next weekend I'm staying in a vegetarian guest house.
I wonder if a McDonald's take away will be frowned upon 😊.
They did win 4 in a bed so I know it will be OK.
My criteria was that it was reasonably priced.
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Gavin Chipper
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Gavin Chipper »

An interesting poster suggesting eating fish is the same as eating cats.

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Fiona T
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Fiona T »

Every time I see one of those "poor kitty - won't you save tiddles" adverts on TV, I think the animal rights people could do a lot worse than do a spoof one with Daisy or Wilbur or Dolly.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Phil H »

Gavin Chipper wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:55 am An interesting poster suggesting eating fish is the same as eating cats.
I'll always remember Martin McGuinness on Question Time in 2004 or 2005 saying he'd recently seen a video where a man picked a Mars Bar up off the ground and then had a hook go through his tongue when he tried to eat it, and claiming that since then, he'd felt too guilty to pursue his pastime of fishing.
Last edited by Phil H on Sat Apr 29, 2023 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Gavin Chipper »

That's just bizarre.
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Callum Todd
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Callum Todd »

Mark Deeks wrote:Callum Todd looks like a young Ted Bundy.
Marc Meakin
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Marc Meakin »

I guess it's a step in the right direction
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Gavin Chipper
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Re: Veganism Discussion

Post by Gavin Chipper »

Headline:
Eating less meat 'like taking 8m cars off road'
So that everyone reading through the thread hasn't got to remind themselves every time!
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