OK, I'm going to have a go at replying to a lot of responses I've had. Sorry it's taken so long!
My first response is that one very positive result of posting on here has been seeing the thoughts of people who exist in completely different circles to me. I had not realised until now how much of an effect the people around you can have on your beliefs. Many of my good friends are Christians, and a lot of the information I have received is from the church. That's not to say I don't trust my friends aren't being honest and my church leaders aren't speaking with wisdom, but I've definitely felt more of an urge to do a little more private investigation, and talking with people who are completely outside of the Christian bubble. That's not to say I've changed my beliefs at all for the moment, but they require a lot more looking into I think.
Jon O'Neill wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:09 pm
I think it's the word "met" here which is odd.
You're right - 'met' is quite an odd way of phrasing it, and perhaps it doesn't quite align with bumping into someone on the street, for example, but I don't think I'd change the wording. Christians believe God is alive and all-powerful, and so I argue that, though 'interacting' with God seems completely weird, believing in a God who cannot interact with us is even weirder.
Different people respond to 'God' (or whatever psychological/spiritual thing there actually is) in different ways (that I have seen or am aware of).
Prayer is the obvious example of talking with God. Most people imagine this as just a wish list of things which you ask God for, which isn't exactly correct. Oftentimes prayer can involve being quiet and 'listening' - sometimes God speaks in pictures or signs. For example, over the last few weeks/months, when people have been praying with/for me, the image of a tree providing shelter has often come up. (This seems quite vague, and I expect you'll be sceptical of this - so am I! If my faith was down to this alone, it wouldn't last a minute, but in addition to lots of other factors, it means something.) Other times, God speaks through 'conviction'. In other words, sometimes, after praying, we might feel a particular urge or desire to say or do something that doesn't seem to make any logical sense. ("Why do I feel so strongly that I should go over there and talk to that person?")
Another example of 'meeting' God is the through the Holy Spirit. If you want a theological understanding of the Spirit then I'm really not the person to talk to, but one way of seeing it/him is like a piece of God that settles in us, and can help us 'be more Godly', for want of better phrasing. Honestly, this stuff confuses me a lot. I've seen some people have what they'd describe as powerful encounters with the Spirit, where they break down crying or laughing, describing the feeling as like something being released from inside them - I have never felt this myself, and, again, on the few occasions that I have witnessed this, I'm always very sceptical, but, again, things like this happen often enough that the flimsiness of each individual thing doesn't cause everything to tumble down. In a less dramatic fashion, often people pray for more of the Spirit, and attribute newfound feelings of joy/hope/love to it/him - I have experienced this myself.
I realise the above must look utterly ludicrous to anyone who isn't a Christian, but I'm better off being honest about it than trying to frame it as something that isn't that weird and hiding the nutter stuff away.
Jon O'Neill wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:09 pm
Do you have some examples?
Here are some examples I have seen/heard of. I often doubt their authenticity but have not been able to come up with alternate explanations.
Healing:
I have never been healed, or had God heal someone through me, that I can remember vividly. When I was younger, I was extremely ill (I remember feeling unable to even move in my bed) - my family prayed for me, and ten minutes later I was completely fine. I'm annoyed that I can't really remember everything but I often find myself assuming I was exaggerating my illness. That said, if God can heal, why do I doubt?
I have heard second hand from a friend who saw someone with one leg longer than the other get prayed for and visibly see the shorter leg get longer.
I don't have any more personal examples, except from what I've heard people talk about in church, but you can have a look at this page to find plenty:
https://www.facebook.com/healingonthestreets
Prophecy:
My Mum and Dad couldn't find a flight with seats left anywhere to go to Seville (my Mum's birthplace) - I can't remember the exact reason. They were prayed for. Someone prayed and came up with an exact flight number and company which had two seats left on it - even when they went to the travel agency after the prayer and asked for a flight to Seville and were told there was none, until they offered this flight number.
There's a church leader called Mike Pilavachi who gets 'words of knowledge' regularly. I've seen him talk a few times, and seen some of the stuff he's said, and I'm utterly convinced he's not a conman. Of course, I can't force you to come to this conclusion yourself without meeting him yourself - but here's a handy video of his you might like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZeBUBFapx4. Here's a few examples of things I've seen him say.
- "There's two of you who are friends, and at 4:20pm this afternoon, you said to each other, if Mike says something about us, then we'll have to become a Christian"
- "Your name is ______, and in the last week or two you've had an engagement broken, and it's not the first time that's happened. I think God wants to meet with you and let you know he loves you."
I can't remember them all, but there are many more in the same vein. They always seem so specific, and he can't be getting fed secret info for so many different people constantly.
Unfortunately I have seen clips of people making stuff up completely, or shooting their arms out to a crowd of people who all fall over, or pastors buying themselves Lamborghinis. Unfortunately, this stuff happens, and a lot of Christians will tell you that they love Jesus, but despise the church because of all the things over history that the church has done in Jesus' name that has not been about him or in his nature.
Ok that's one down, I don't have the time to make them all this long.
Jennifer Steadman wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:21 pm
Former churchgoer (not by choice) of 15 years checking in.
I appreciate your stance. If going to an alpha course (which I haven't yet, but I'd like to) didn't convince you, then there's probably not much chance that I'll be able to on a countdown forum. I'm grateful that you've considered it and made an informed decision.
Phil H wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:56 pm
Probably the 'checkmate' moment in my ceasing to be a Christian was reading a site called "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?" I too have spent a long time in church and come across people who seem to have overcome addictions and other mental health problems, or even experienced improvements in their physical mobility. However, as the author of that site asks, why does God choose not to miraculously heal in the situation where a miraculous healing would perhaps be least disputable?
This is a really interesting, good argument. I've never heard of an amputee being healed, and if God is all-powerful, why wouldn't he? I can't really argue with this tbh. I'm going to look into this more.
Mark James wrote: ↑Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:40 pm
I'd rather believe Jesus was just a man. It would make me more inclined to believe I could live up to his example.
T.Cap posted a good response to this.
JimBentley wrote: ↑Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:40 pm
Thanks Dan for your very interesting and thought-provoking post. It was fascinating to read it. But, a couple of things:
Dan Byrom wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:01 amTo suggest that there is no credible evidence at all for Christianity
I don't think that anyone is disputing that Christianity exists, it's the basic tenets that people have problems with. You say that there are many accounts of Jesus, but all of these were written centuries after his supposed existence. Why are there no contemporary accounts?
Dan Byrom wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:01 ammultiple books written well before Jesus' life that predict Jesus' coming
No, they predicted the coming of a god (or godlike being), which is pretty much a universal trope in the writings of early civilisations. Nothing is specific about an incarnate "Jesus". That was invented centuries afterwards.
Dan Byrom wrote: ↑Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:01 amIt is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of a God using logic and science and reason
It's not possible to prove the non-existence of something that doesn't exist, though, isn't it? Surely the onus is on the people who think that God does exist to prove that he (or she or it or whatever) does exist? Pretty sure that's how this sort of thing works.
I'd love to be able to post an articulate, well-informed response to these questions. Unfortunately I don't have the answers. But I can add a couple of things with the help of Google. This page here posts a few prophecies about Jesus that do seem pretty specific, so I contend that point:
https://www1.cbn.com/biblestudy/biblica ... d-by-jesus. According to Wikipedia, the four gospels in the Bible were written within 110 years of Jesus. This also helps me answer Ian's comment about 'powerful political groupings' - yes it's possible these four in particular were chosen to be included based on political agendas, but there's also a possibility they were trying to rule out inaccuracies and present the most reasonable texts.
Adam Gillard wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:18 am
tl;dr: I'm happy and proud of my religion but I can't pretend it has all the answers or that I don't have doubts. It's important to respect people of all backgrounds, and of course anyone can be a good or bad person.
I agree completely with the tl;dr, and completely respect your position, and can relate a lot with what you have said. In my case, it would be very difficult to stop being a Christian, as a lot of my friends are Christians, and going to Church is a staple of my week. However, Christianity is either true or false, and the repercussions of it being either are a matter of eternal life and death, so I'm not willing to sit idly and comfortably - I'd rather try and find the truth.
Fiona T wrote: ↑Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:00 pm
It was a discussion I gently had with my mum a few times - If you (Christianity) are "right", how can the believers of Judaism/Muslim etc equally believe they're right too? A massive number of you who think your beliefs are right, must be wrong.
This is a difficult question. A part of me hopes I'm wrong so that I don't have to worry about other people's post-death futures, and another big part of me hopes that perhaps Judaism/Christianity/Islam are similar enough that we'll all be alright... They are after all based on the same texts, and the same God... This is more hope and speculation than any concrete belief though.
Rosemary Roberts wrote: ↑Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:49 pm
You would probably call me an aggressive atheist. I don't have any quarrel with religious people who simply want to follow their own creed and try to be good people, but I do quarrel, very readily, with anybody who claims that their beliefs should govern the way other people behave.
For me, talking to other people about my faith is scary, and something I'm always naturally reluctant to do, but, given the appropriate circumstances (such as a thread specifically for talking about religion), I can't not talk about it. Firstly, it's a huge part of who I am - it's how I'm defined. Secondly, it's a matter of our eternal futures, and is real or not real, so I can't just sit around comfortable that I'm going to heaven and other people are not without doing something about it. Of course, I'm against people rubbing it in your face though if you don't want to hear it - those people who stand on the street telling everyone they're going to go to hell unless they repent drive me up the wall as much as they do anyone else, and I find it hard to believe that they're doing a good job of convincing anyone.
Ok that'll do for now. Well done if you made it this far!