Ask Graeme?
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Thanks again Clive, great stuff.
Yes I did wonder if the lack of opportunites for division when playing 6 small meant that 99%ers in that category were rare, despite being by far the trickiest category overall.
No joy yet on solving those new examples though, even with the advantage of knowing their difficulty in advance.
Yes I did wonder if the lack of opportunites for division when playing 6 small meant that 99%ers in that category were rare, despite being by far the trickiest category overall.
No joy yet on solving those new examples though, even with the advantage of knowing their difficulty in advance.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Middle one seemed to jump out at me: (8*8*5-6)*6/4Clive Brooker wrote:I'm pretty sure that the proportion of games getting the 99% rating is much lower than 1%.Fred Mumford wrote:Cheers Clive, that certainly covers one of the areas I was looking for.
I wonder which pot all the games with 90%-98% difficulty get shoved into?
I've always assumed that William T-P's criteria value division more highly than anything, and division is not often a feature of 6 small solutions. However it doesn't seem to be essential to have a division operation to score 99%, and 6 small examples do exist. Good luck with these:
8 7 5 5 3 3 : target 391
8 8 6 6 5 4 : target 471
9 9 7 5 3 1 : target 669
Can't see the others though
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Re: Ask Graeme?
The longest string of games whose challengers' surnames began with consecutive letters of the alphabet seems to be only three.George Pryn wrote:What's the longest string of games in which the challengers' surnames have been in alphabetical order?
1. A string starting from any letter i.e DEFGHI
- Chris Kennedy, Anne Langford and David McCarron, starting here
- William Cussen, Steve Dannell and Richard Egerton, starting here
- Elena Bonetti, Janet Creamer and Carl Dyke, starting here
- Inderjit Bedi, Will Cantrell and Sarah Devlin, starting here
- Alistair Kinnon, Nick Locock and Samira Mohamed, starting here
- David Howard, Tony Izzard and Dominic James, starting here
- Peter Littleton, Mark Murray and Chris Newbury, starting here
The longest run of challengers whose surnames were in alphabetical order was 7: Gen Baker, Niall Breen, Rory Coleman, Cherry Ann Grant, Graham Harrison, Zarte Siempre, Ian Talbot and Brenda Widger, starting here.George Pryn wrote:2. Just generally alphabetical i.e AeAzBCaCeD
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Re: Ask Graeme?
In new 15 round games, Dylan Taylor scored most consistently, his highest score being 129 and the lowest 113.George Pryn wrote:What's the smallest score range of an Octochamp over their 8 games? By this I mean the difference between their lowest and highest score, not their highest winning margin
YOU ROCK
In old 15 round games, it was Tom Hargreaves, who had a highest score of 111 and a lowest score of 98.
In 9 round games, it was Sharon Bridge, with 63 and 51.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Interesting, but nines could skew this a lot (unless you're George). Could you please repeat this with most consistent in terms of points lost from the max?Graeme Cole wrote:In new 15 round games, Dylan Taylor scored most consistently, his highest score being 129 and the lowest 113.George Pryn wrote:What's the smallest score range of an Octochamp over their 8 games? By this I mean the difference between their lowest and highest score, not their highest winning margin
YOU ROCK
In old 15 round games, it was Tom Hargreaves, who had a highest score of 111 and a lowest score of 98.
In 9 round games, it was Sharon Bridge, with 63 and 51.
Also, two things.
Is this not 8?Graeme Cole wrote:The longest run of challengers whose surnames were in alphabetical order was 7: Gen Baker, Niall Breen, Rory Coleman, Cherry Ann Grant, Graham Harrison, Zarte Siempre, Ian Talbot and Brenda Widger, starting here.George Pryn wrote:2. Just generally alphabetical i.e AeAzBCaCeD
Bet Callum wishes he visited this thread more, especially as this was posted the day before CoHud...Graeme Cole wrote: 11 contestants whose names are anagrams of nine letter words, for you to have a go at at home. Some easy, some difficult.
Lester Mak
cheers maus
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Um. Yes.Thomas Carey wrote:Is this not 8?Graeme Cole wrote:The longest run of challengers whose surnames were in alphabetical order was 7: Gen Baker, Niall Breen, Rory Coleman, Cherry Ann Grant, Graham Harrison, Zarte Siempre, Ian Talbot and Brenda Widger, starting here.George Pryn wrote:2. Just generally alphabetical i.e AeAzBCaCeD
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Jono came up with what he calls the "TV GOAT list", which is a player's most number of maxes over three consecutive games. He reckons that he's done this himself (and that he's second with 41 out of 45) but is refusing to publish it, but it sounds like a good idea. Maybe it could be done as % of maxes so that we could compare players in 9-round games and 14-round finals as well.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
HI GRAEME!!! Big fan
Have any players ever scored 0 over all letters rounds in a game? (competitive score not raw)
thx
Have any players ever scored 0 over all letters rounds in a game? (competitive score not raw)
thx
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Apologies if this has been asked before, but who's the best player at each numbers selection? I imagine Scott Mearns must be quite high up the 6 small board.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
It's not up to Graeme to decide who's the best! Obviously you can have percentage success rate, but then you have to look at statistical significance etc.Rhys Benjamin wrote:Apologies if this has been asked before, but who's the best player at each numbers selection? I imagine Scott Mearns must be quite high up the 6 small board.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Just realised I never checked back for this; great work, thank you!Graeme Cole wrote:Top 20 by joint score in 15 rounders:Charlie Reams wrote:Slightly niche but I'm on the hunt for games which may be "forgotten classics". Could you tell us the game with the highest joint score in which neither contestant made the finals? (And, maybe better, highest joint maxes?)Top 20 plus ties by joint score in 9 rounders:Code: Select all
EP TX DATE SCORE JOINT 5791 2013-10-15 Abdirizak Hirsi 107 119 Mark Hartnett 226 (Fred's breakfast survives) 3869 2005-02-11 Frank Mulvey 133 86 Kevin Warner 219 S11 2003-09-11 Melanie Beaumont 83 126 Linda Dawe 209 4560 2008-03-19 Andrew Swale 96 106 Tony Durrant 202 3536 2003-08-12 Colin Askew 79 121 Nick Smith 200 3705 2004-05-17 Chris White 93 104 Laura Taylor 197 4069 2006-03-30 Tuck Broadbent 95 101 Dan Webster 196 4272 2007-01-15 Ian Volante 102 93 George Rhodes 195 5739 2013-07-24 Rory Coleman 76 118 Zarte Siempre 194 3916 2005-04-27 David Ryan 91 102 Kieran Coppinger 193 3325 2002-09-23 Robert Lee 91 101 Dez Hussey 192 5296 2011-06-29 Andrew Halliburton 100 92 Barry Evans 192 3445 2003-03-24 Beth Sutton 103 88 Keith Williams 191 4132 2006-06-23 Graham Dugdale 90 101 Alan O'Donnell 191 4186 2006-09-07 Sheri Evans 93 98 Sarah Duncan 191 5868 2014-02-13 Andrew Farr 89 102 Adrian Day 191 4967 2010-01-28 James Rawson 100 90 Toni Balestra 190 5486 2012-05-17 Stuart Wright 111 79 Jamie Ainge 190 3630 2004-01-26 Eric Wright 123 66 Jonathan De Souza 189 4075 2006-04-06 Heather Culpin 106 83 Steven Kidner 189
Top 20 plus ties by joint maxes in 15 rounders:Code: Select all
EP TX DATE SCORE JOINT 905 1989-08-30 Clive Everill 70 60 Chris Magill 130 2720 2000-02-29 Andy Brown 70 60 Barry Scaum 130 2563 1999-07-12 Kay Powick 71 53 Derek Harrison 124 1920 1997-01-15 Jeff Youell 53 70 Steve Erskine 123 900 1989-08-23 Ann Rutter 63 59 Mark Pont 122 2365 1998-10-07 Sally Hutchings 53 68 Joe Bridal 121 2948 2001-02-14 Nicola Smith 63 58 Daryl Brooks 121 2154 1997-12-09 Christine Kavanagh 58 62 Michael Joy 120 2427 1999-01-01 Emma Brown 55 65 Ted Smith 120 2513 1999-05-03 Keith Loveys 56 64 Colin Sinnett 120 2782 2000-05-30 Jacqueline Carter 62 57 Eddy Ignace 119 2918 2001-01-03 Dom Glennon 57 62 Richard Leaper 119 1278 1992-07-20 Felicity Gelder 54 64 Terry Doughty 118 1076 1991-01-10 Robert Houston 64 53 Ewen Alexander 117 2959 2001-03-01 Ralph Lubkowski 69 48 Mansoor Undre 117 2609 1999-09-28 Billy Davidson 68 48 Jacqui Darby 116 647 1987-10-07 Jim Findlay 66 49 Ray Clements 115 1171 1991-08-22 Thelma Bell 55 60 Howard Spencer 115 1793 1996-07-15 Martin Wright 54 61 Kim Poole 115 1829 1996-09-03 Jean Frost 60 55 George Gruner 115 2304 1998-07-14 Simon Cobb 65 50 Vasudeo Joshi 115 2405 1998-12-02 Phil Hunt 60 55 Claire O'Neil 115 3011 2001-05-14 Peter Wild 53 62 Debbie Allen 115
Top 20 plus ties (so top 38) by joint maxes in 9 rounders:Code: Select all
EP TX DATE SCORE MAXES JOINT 5293 2011-06-24 Matt Croy 90 91 Andrew Halliburton 12 12 24 3445 2003-03-24 Beth Sutton 103 88 Keith Williams 12 9 21 4235 2006-11-15 Phil Matthams 96 86 Christine Smith 11 10 21 4560 2008-03-19 Andrew Swale 96 106 Tony Durrant 10 11 21 3997 2005-12-21 Sue Alexander 84 98 Nick Rafferty 9 11 20 4069 2006-03-30 Tuck Broadbent 95 101 Dan Webster 9 11 20 3426 2003-02-25 John Clarke 96 77 David Poyser 10 9 19 (not the same John Clarke I mentioned in the post above, who won series 11) S11 2003-09-11 Melanie Beaumont 83 126 Linda Dawe 7 12 19 3915 2005-04-26 Jenny Scudamore 83 86 David Ryan 9 10 19 3919 2005-05-03 Kieran Coppinger 72 82 Sally Bassinder 9 10 19 3921 2005-05-05 Sally Bassinder 84 90 Bob Beckett 9 10 19 3923 2005-05-09 Michael Edwards 79 71 Jim Anderson 10 9 19 5388 2011-12-02 Phyllis Styles 109 71 Rachel Shirley 11 8 19 5791 2013-10-15 Abdirizak Hirsi 107 119 Mark Hartnett 9 10 19 5816 2013-11-19 Simon Whiteley 81 87 Philip Creed 8 11 19 3212 2002-03-19 Tony Harding 87 83 Paul Burlinson 10 8 18 3827 2004-11-30 Judith Armstrong 85 82 Andrew Byrne 9 9 18 3917 2005-04-28 Kieran Coppinger 101 85 Ian Laming 10 8 18 3986 2005-12-06 Rosemary Ilsley 87 98 Clive Johnson 9 9 18 4575 2008-04-09 Matthew Coates 87 97 David Sandbach 9 9 18 4870 2009-08-25 Paul Varlaam 67 105 Ed Rossiter 7 11 18 4987 2010-02-25 Clarke Carlisle 101 78 Alexander Johnston 10 8 18 5427 2012-02-16 Chris Butler 93 73 Matthew Conway 10 8 18
Code: Select all
EP TX DATE SCORE MAXES JOINT 1076 1991-01-10 Robert Houston 64 53 Ewen Alexander 7 6 13 1421 1993-08-12 Eileen Slack 43 50 Alec Webb 6 7 13 2529 1999-05-25 Susan Shilton 63 41 Joan Trinder 8 5 13 2720 2000-02-29 Andy Brown 70 60 Barry Scaum 7 6 13 2839 2000-09-14 David Healey 40 67 Kris Jones 5 8 13 1335 1993-01-13 'A.J.' Marriot 45 55 Barbi Birdseye 5 7 12 1463 1994-01-10 Jim Crawford 37 62 John Carter 5 7 12 1748 1996-02-12 Seamus McAteer 41 62 Steve Gruzd 5 7 12 1819 1996-08-20 Mike Llewellin 58 54 June Ruskin 6 6 12 1912 1997-01-03 Paul Wells 48 62 Mike Kindred 5 7 12 2513 1999-05-03 Keith Loveys 56 64 Colin Sinnett 6 6 12 2623 1999-10-18 Alix Anderson 52 59 Dee Voce 6 6 12 2636 1999-11-04 Anthony Moorhouse 53 52 Olive Martin 6 6 12 2867 2000-10-24 Andrew Ferguson 46 49 Helen Smith 6 6 12 2928 2001-01-17 Stuart Anderson 41 57 Bill Rennie 5 7 12 451 1986-10-21 Steve Wood 53 49 Paul Robson 5 6 11 649 1987-10-09 Jim Findlay 50 54 Ian Cook 5 6 11 788 1988-08-01 Wayne Blackburn 30 63 Cliff Boynton 4 7 11 898 1989-08-21 Debbie Williams 45 65 Mark Pont 5 6 11 1495 1994-02-23 Gus Stewart 45 56 Gordon McLurey 5 6 11 1505 1994-03-09 Julia Perthen 46 62 John Mullings 5 6 11 2005 1997-05-14 Natasha Casie Chetty 40 47 Robert Shaw 5 6 11 2044 1997-07-08 Paul Harrison 45 52 Joy Hill 5 6 11 2268 1998-05-25 Daniel Summers 59 55 Helen Ross 6 5 11 2356 1998-09-24 Alan Dyson 39 46 Peter Preston Igweke 5 6 11 2461 1999-02-18 David Andrew 57 34 Ian Knox 7 4 11 2591 1999-09-02 Mickie O'Neill 41 53 Geraldine Curran 5 6 11 2607 1999-09-24 Jean O'Neill 47 54 Christine Silverwood 5 6 11 2696 2000-01-26 John Snedden 45 60 Joel Davey 5 6 11 2708 2000-02-11 Barbara Rogers 30 65 Daniel Vanniasingham 3 8 11 2726 2000-03-08 Lisa Hermann 57 29 Geoffrey Masters 7 4 11 2773 2000-05-12 Davina Forrester 55 56 Naomi Thorburn 6 5 11 2776 2000-05-17 Peter McGuigan 65 41 Chris Harris 7 4 11 2781 2000-05-29 Mei Ling Simons 54 57 Jacqueline Carter 5 6 11 2782 2000-05-30 Jacqueline Carter 62 57 Eddy Ignace 6 5 11 2902 2000-12-12 Stephen Briggs 45 55 James Aukett 5 6 11 3021 2001-05-31 Alison Moore 44 59 Stuart Moore 5 6 11
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Not sure if this has been asked before but what's the lowest raw score in a game by a contestant, for both 9 and 15 rounders? Can you produce separate results where:
1. The raw score is calculated by assuming that unheard numbers solutions are correct
2. They are assumed to be incorrect?
Thanks.
1. The raw score is calculated by assuming that unheard numbers solutions are correct
2. They are assumed to be incorrect?
Thanks.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
I don't think this has been asked before - can you list the octochamps in order of the lowest number of maxes they got in a game? Can't think where I got that idea from.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Ages ago I did some analysis on Mike Brown's octochamp data which found that most octochamps start their run in an episode shown on a Monday.James Laverty wrote:With the exception of Samir Pilica and Mark Davies, all of the octochamps in 2014 have finished their run on the last filmed show of their second day of recording (ie final day of a DC guest). Does this imply that making your debut straight after the lunch break gives you an advantage or a mere coincidence?
(By the way Mike, you've got Neil Zussman starting in 1998 rather than 2009 - sorry, I meant to mention that at the time.)
The breakdown as of the end of series 70 is as follows:
Monday: 46
Tuesday: 32
Wednesday: 40
Thursday: 33
Friday: 31
Saturday: 1
Since the start of 2009 (so series 60-70), 9 octochamps started on a Friday, 11 octochamps started on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday, and 14 started on a Wednesday.
However, in the last year or so it's been more common for the first episode recorded in a day not to be the Monday episode.
I can't say whether making your debut on the third game of a recording day confers an advantage, or whether expected octochamps are sometimes deliberately started then for convenience's sake as Jack suggests.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
I don't have any fancy program that finds hard numbers games, but once I came across this one: 100 6 5 8 7 7 -> 405Fred Mumford wrote:This might be more of an "Ask Anyone" but I'm on the lookout for any exceptionally difficult numbers games (ie. games that score 99% on the solver tool, and ideally with just a single solution) that anyone may have come across that meet any of the following criteria:-
- Six small selections
- A relatively small target (say below 400)
- Any that might look easy at first glance (eg. 50 25 7 6 3 3 => 712 from the solver FAQ example list)
- Any that are particularly interesting for any other reason (eg 75 50 25 8 7 3 => 939 from the series 19 final. Not a complicated solution arithmetically, (50x25-8)/3+75x7, but a work of beauty, who would even think of approaching it that way?)
I've seen the excellent list that Clive Brooker did earlier in this thread, so I'm not talking about any games that have actually appeared on the show, but any that anyone may have stumbled across on apterous or via some fancy complicated database mining blah blah stuff.
Many thanks.
It's by no means a 99% difficulty puzzle, but it's certainly harder than it first looks. There are quite a few ways of solving it - my solver finds seven non-trivially different solutions - but I wouldn't say any are very intuitive.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Thank you, yes that one is a bit tricky, I'm surprised it is rated at only 70% on the WTP solver tool (although I've long believed that it sometimes knocks off too many difficulty points for games with solutions that don't happen to use all 6 numbers).
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Re: Ask Graeme?
When I was hunting for 6 small examples I simply ran through all selections for a chosen target and picked out the 99%ers afterwards - nothing subtle or pretty. So I have many thousands of results, including the WTP rating, and if you're interested in trying to decode what he's doing I can send them to you. Scanning through the results you quickly start to get a sense of what constructions lead to each score, particularly when WTP only finds one solution.Fred Mumford wrote:Thank you, yes that one is a bit tricky, I'm surprised it is rated at only 70% on the WTP solver tool (although I've long believed that it sometimes knocks off too many difficulty points for games with solutions that don't happen to use all 6 numbers).
Send me a suitable email address via PM if you'd like to have a look.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Here are all the seven-letter words which have been spelt out in the selection:Jon Corby wrote:Yo.
This has probably been asked before, but: words spelt out in the selection. What can you tell me about these please? What's the longest? When have contestants offered such words? When have they wasted effort and offered a different word (same length) to one spelt out? etc.
STINGER was spelt out in round 1 in this episode - the contestants spotted an 8 and a 9.
Round 2 in this episode was more unusual - WICKING was spelt out, but both contestants went for RICKING, which I would say is the more unusual word.
Both contestants got FORESTS in round 2 of this game, but missed the 8, BOASTERS.
TALBOTS appeared in this game, but the contestants went for alternative, perhaps more well known, sevens.
LOUNGED appeared in round 8 of this game, but both offered other sevens.
In round 9 of this game, ORIENTS was easily picked out by one contestant but beaten by POINTERS.
In round 12 of this game, Conor Travers and Andrew Christley got a tnetennba for PILOTED.
Round 1 of this game had the unusual word LISTELS spelt out in it, but the contestants found better words.
MEANDER appeared in round 1 of this game.
TISANES appeared in round 13 of this game.
I'd never heard of the word GASTRIN, but it was spelt out in round 13 of this game between Michelle Nevitt and Andy McGurn, both of whom found longer words.
Similarly, GOALIES appeared in round 4 here but it wasn't the best on offer.
Most recently, round 4 in this game last series contained the word REFINES. Both contestants went for longer words, but Samir realised his word wasn't in the selection.
No eight or nine letter word has appeared spelt out in the selection.
Contestants have offered words spelt out in the selection 81 times up to the end of series 71, the most recent being round 8 of this game. On two of those occasions the word was not valid: PONS in round 8 of this game and LOSABLE in round 6 of this game.
The longest words contestants have found in the selection are FORESTS, ORIENTS, PILOTED and MEANDER, which appear above.
Based on the maxes given by the wiki, which are known in some cases to be wrong, only nine tnettenbae have been achieved on Countdown - that is, a word offered which is spelt out in the selection and the best available. They were for DEITY (twice), TAINT, FIXED, PILOTED (twice), PAEANS, BROKEN and JIHADI.
Quite likely, if you include words like "a".Jon Corby wrote:If possible I'd be interested in "how likely" you are to get words spelt out (although I haven't really thought this through fully, and it might not make sense because it requires the contestant to pick the letters in a certain way).
Obviously this wouldn't show up in the wiki, but I personally know of at least one case where a round was scrapped because a swear word was not quite spelt out.Jon Corby wrote:Any information on rounds abandoned because of (presumably offensive) words being spelt out would also be great. Would/has a round be scrapped if there was an obvious max spelt out?
When one of the worse words appear, they redo the round, although TWAT did slip through once. Milder words have a better chance of making it to air: ARSE has appeared 31 times, FART twice and PISS once (video).Jon Corby wrote:Also amusing words that have been spelt out (and left in) would be fun to know about.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
9 rounder: Lindsay Denyer, who dropped no more than 27 and no fewer than 17 points in any game in her octorun.Thomas Carey wrote:Interesting, but nines could skew this a lot (unless you're George). Could you please repeat this with most consistent in terms of points lost from the max?Graeme Cole wrote:In new 15 round games, Dylan Taylor scored most consistently, his highest score being 129 and the lowest 113.George Pryn wrote:What's the smallest score range of an Octochamp over their 8 games? By this I mean the difference between their lowest and highest score, not their highest winning margin
YOU ROCK
In old 15 round games, it was Tom Hargreaves, who had a highest score of 111 and a lowest score of 98.
In 9 round games, it was Sharon Bridge, with 63 and 51.
Old 15: Andrew Hulme dropped no more than 22 and no fewer than 15 points.
New 15: George Ford dropped no more than 29 and no fewer than 12 - a difference of 17 - but Andy Platt, who did half his octorun in the new format, dropped no more than 24 and no fewer than 11, a difference of 13.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Assuming unheard numbers solutions are correct:Jack Worsley wrote:Not sure if this has been asked before but what's the lowest raw score in a game by a contestant, for both 9 and 15 rounders? Can you produce separate results where:
1. The raw score is calculated by assuming that unheard numbers solutions are correct
2. They are assumed to be incorrect?
Thanks.
9 rounder: 16.
Old 15 rounder: 44.
New 15 rounder: 31.
Assuming unheard numbers solutions were incorrect:
9 rounder: Still 16.
Old 15 rounder: 39.
New 15 rounder: still 31, but this one is now also joint lowest.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
In the 9 round format it happened six times, in episodes 466, 637, 646, 1554, 2343 and 3035. In episode 1061 in 1990, Denys Hollis scored no points on letters but I haven't included this because he should have scored 4 - his opponent was incorrectly allowed a word that wasn't in the selection.George Pryn wrote:HI GRAEME!!! Big fan
Have any players ever scored 0 over all letters rounds in a game? (competitive score not raw)
thx
It's never happened in 15 rounds.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
The following tables contain the top 100 plus ties. The highest number of maxes achieved by a player in three consecutive games appears in the last column. The column before it is the episode number of the last game of the three. Each table is sorted by the last column, and then in arbitrary order after that. Tiebreak rounds are not counted. This is up to date to the end of series 71.Gavin Chipper wrote:Jono came up with what he calls the "TV GOAT list", which is a player's most number of maxes over three consecutive games. He reckons that he's done this himself (and that he's second with 41 out of 45) but is refusing to publish it, but it sounds like a good idea. Maybe it could be done as % of maxes so that we could compare players in 9-round games and 14-round finals as well.
15 rounders (either flavour):
Code: Select all
1. Conor Travers 5653 45
2. Jon O'Neill 5653 41
3. Kirk Bevins 5650 40
3. Paul Gallen 4127 40
3. Dylan Taylor 5833 40
3. Jen Steadman 5762 40
7. Craig Beevers 4472 39
7. Edward McCullagh 5200 39
7. Dan McColm 6013 39
7. Jack Worsley 5649 39
7. Jonathan Rawlinson 5505 39
12. Julian Fell 3345 38
12. Innis Carson 5645 38
12. Jack Hurst 5636 38
12. Andy Platt 5668 38
16. Chris Davies 4878 37
16. Giles Hutchings 5675 37
16. Callum Todd 5839 37
19. Mark Murray 5909 36
19. Chris Wills 3169 36
19. Mark Tournoff 4127 36
22. Tricia Pay 5964 35
22. Stewart Holden 3656 35
22. Paul Howe 4117 35
22. Bradley Cates 5798 35
22. David O'Donnell 5644 35
22. Adam Gillard 5185 35
28. Glen Webb 5835 34
28. Eoin Monaghan 5114 34
28. Samir Pilica 5929 34
31. Marcus Hares 5150 33
31. Oliver Garner 4962 33
31. Graeme Cole 5282 33
31. Zarte Siempre 5742 33
35. Junaid Mubeen 4732 32
35. Tom Hargreaves 3278 32
35. Grace Page 3287 32
35. Chris Cummins 4120 32
35. Jack Welsby 3753 32
35. Chris Hunt 3883 32
35. David Barnard 5596 32
35. Abdirizak Hirsi 5789 32
35. George Ford 6053 32
44. Paul James 5612 31
44. Andrew Hulme 5639 31
44. George Greenhough 3359 31
44. Neil Green 5918 31
44. John Mayhew 3954 31
44. Matthew Shore 4121 31
44. Jimmy Gough 4816 31
51. Peter Lee 5435 30
51. David Nickeas 3292 30
51. John Davies 4122 30
51. Richard Heald 3956 30
51. Jon Corby 4746 30
51. Simon Born 4169 30
51. Steven Briers 4745 30
51. Neil Zussman 4841 30
51. Daniel Pati 5174 30
51. Jason Turner 5962 30
61. Graham Nash 3404 29
61. Adam Laws 3611 29
61. John Brackstone 3933 29
61. Aaron Webber 4380 29
61. James Hurrell 4374 29
61. Charlie Reams 4746 29
61. Martin Bishop 4707 29
61. Ryan Taylor 4927 29
61. Scott Gillies 5175 29
61. Tom Barnes 5265 29
61. Mark Davies 5977 29
61. Paul Worsley 5996 29
61. Laurence Killen 6034 29
74. Darryl Francis 5641 28
74. Ben Wilson 5618 28
74. Andrew Naylor 5878 28
74. Steven Moir 3810 28
74. David Edwards 4505 28
74. Jeffrey Hansford 4431 28
74. Jonathan Coles 4738 28
74. Ed Rossiter 4872 28
74. Greg Hayhurst 5166 28
74. Andy McGurn 5226 28
74. Mark Deeks 5617 28
74. Phyllis Styles 5390 28
74. Rob Gibney 5458 28
74. Mark Hartnett 5794 28
88. John Rawnsley 3402 27
88. Kevin Thurlow 3178 27
88. Beth Sutton 3445 27
88. Stuart Solomons 3613 27
88. Alex Fish 5836 27
88. Stuart Earl 3592 27
88. Steve Graston 3617 27
88. Kieran Coppinger 3919 27
88. Anita Freeland 4738 27
88. Jean Webby 4306 27
88. Richard Priest 4568 27
88. Jonny Rye 6017 27
100. Tony Durrant 4562 26
100. Ian Linton 5956 26
100. Lee Hartley 3195 26
100. Mike Pullin 3274 26
100. Michael Clarke 3316 26
100. Eamonn Timmins 4119 26
100. Nicole Hutchings 3722 26
100. Roy Thearle 3760 26
100. John Gray 3784 26
100. John Hunt 3801 26
100. Sally Bassinder 3921 26
100. Richard Brittain 4195 26
100. Nick Wainwright 4737 26
100. James Rawson 4967 26
100. Lee Graham 5034 26
100. Tom Rowell 5092 26
100. Andrew Halliburton 5295 26
100. Chris Butler 5428 26
100. Farhan Ahmed 5992 26
100. Antoinette Ryan 6056 26
Code: Select all
1. Helen Grayson 269 22
1. Harvey Freeman 488 22
1. Allan Saldanha 1906 22
4. Jonathan Anstey 892 21
4. Damian Eadie 1533 21
6. Mark Nyman 185 20
6. Tim Morrissey 1906 20
6. Don Reid 1855 20
6. Richard Campbell 1502 20
6. Pete Cashmore 1982 20
6. Susan Shilton 2529 20
12. Clive Spate 362 19
12. Tony Vick 1899 19
12. Darren Shacklady 1623 19
12. David Acton 1766 19
12. Bhavin Manek 2093 19
12. Terry Knowles 2396 19
12. Scott Mearns 2677 19
12. James Sheppard 2872 19
12. Kevin McMahon 2970 19
21. Darryl Francis 596 18
21. Robert Violett 1870 18
21. John Clarke 538 18
21. Liz Barber 1068 18
21. Derek Coombs 1016 18
21. Chris Waddington 1332 18
21. Andy Bodle 1415 18
21. Alec Webb 1423 18
21. Andy Cusworth 1640 18
21. Catriona Cappleman 1685 18
21. Graham Cross 1692 18
21. Harshan Lamabadusuriya 2164 18
21. Tony Killilea 1926 18
21. Ricky Zinger 2141 18
21. Pamela Roud 2538 18
21. Rory Dunlop 2589 18
21. Mickie O'Neill 2591 18
21. Melvin Hetherington 2656 18
21. David Ballheimer 2795 18
21. Peter McGuigan 2777 18
21. David Williams 2831 18
21. Matthew Turner 2895 18
43. Joyce Cansfield 1903 17
43. Robert Richland 152 17
43. Olivia Lloyd 286 17
43. David Whiting 458 17
43. Mike Whiteoak 639 17
43. Jenny Haldane 794 17
43. David Poulter 823 17
43. Evan Simpson 841 17
43. Nick Saloman 1100 17
43. David Webb 1195 17
43. Robert Teuton 1156 17
43. Gareth Williams 1256 17
43. David Elias 1473 17
43. Gregg Magee 1565 17
43. Anthony Jenkin 1724 17
43. Kenneth Michie 1853 17
43. Steve Gruzd 1750 17
43. Satbir Gupta 1841 17
43. Keith Burton 2211 17
43. Chris Toyne 2286 17
43. Terence English 2674 17
43. Ricky Cohen 2464 17
43. Peter Hutchings 2525 17
43. Simon Cooper 2604 17
43. Dee Voce 2627 17
43. Jonathan Storey 2804 17
43. Kate Ritchie 2809 17
43. Graham Nash 2817 17
71. Russell Byers 1881 16
71. Esther Byers 130 16
71. Clive Freedman 1866 16
71. David Trace 1881 16
71. Hilary Hopper 1904 16
71. Nic Brown 818 16
71. Nigel Gardner 763 16
71. Steve Williams 817 16
71. John Widdowson 811 16
71. Mark Pont 900 16
71. Gino Corr 1073 16
71. Andrew Perry 1902 16
71. Daniel Simonis 1517 16
71. Sharon Bridge 1525 16
71. Mary Horswill 1597 16
71. Chris Rogers 1638 16
71. Chris Williams 1781 16
71. Graeme Sugarman 1844 16
71. Craig Douglas 1811 16
71. James Martin 1966 16
71. Natascha Kearsey 2176 16
71. Maria Boyes 2055 16
71. Tony Baylis 2069 16
71. Simon Pryde 2165 16
71. Malcolm Fairy 2088 16
71. Kate Surtees 2118 16
71. Gerry Pearce 2289 16
71. Nick Buttle 2319 16
71. Kate Ogilvie 2676 16
71. Barry Lyons 2449 16
71. David Andrew 2462 16
71. Sanjay Mazumder 2670 16
71. Lucy Roberts 2639 16
71. Margaret Foster 2652 16
71. Rodney Marrison 2759 16
71. Jacqueline Carter 2783 16
71. Clare Wright 2850 16
71. Andrew Ferguson 2867 16
Code: Select all
1. Conor Travers 5653 100.00%
2. Jon O'Neill 5653 91.11%
3. Dylan Taylor 5833 88.89%
3. Kirk Bevins 5650 88.89%
3. Jen Steadman 5762 88.89%
3. Paul Gallen 4127 88.89%
7. Craig Beevers 4472 86.67%
7. Edward McCullagh 5200 86.67%
7. Dan McColm 6013 86.67%
7. Jack Worsley 5649 86.67%
7. Jonathan Rawlinson 5505 86.67%
12. Innis Carson 5645 84.44%
12. Jack Hurst 5636 84.44%
12. Julian Fell 3345 84.44%
12. Andy Platt 5668 84.44%
16. Giles Hutchings 5675 82.22%
16. Chris Davies 4878 82.22%
16. Callum Todd 5839 82.22%
19. Helen Grayson 269 81.48%
19. Harvey Freeman 488 81.48%
19. Allan Saldanha 1906 81.48%
22. Mark Murray 5909 80.00%
22. Chris Wills 3169 80.00%
22. Mark Tournoff 4127 80.00%
25. David O'Donnell 5644 77.78%
25. Tricia Pay 5964 77.78%
25. Jonathan Anstey 892 77.78%
25. Adam Gillard 5185 77.78%
25. Stewart Holden 3656 77.78%
25. Damian Eadie 1533 77.78%
25. Bradley Cates 5798 77.78%
25. Paul Howe 4117 77.78%
33. Glen Webb 5835 75.56%
33. Eoin Monaghan 5114 75.56%
33. Samir Pilica 5929 75.56%
36. Tim Morrissey 1906 74.07%
36. Richard Campbell 1502 74.07%
36. Susan Shilton 2529 74.07%
36. Pete Cashmore 1982 74.07%
40. Graeme Cole 5282 73.33%
40. Zarte Siempre 5742 73.33%
40. Oliver Garner 4962 73.33%
40. Marcus Hares 5150 73.33%
44. Mark Nyman 132 71.88%
45. Junaid Mubeen 4732 71.11%
45. Chris Cummins 4120 71.11%
45. George Ford 6053 71.11%
45. Jack Welsby 3753 71.11%
45. Tom Hargreaves 3278 71.11%
45. Grace Page 3287 71.11%
45. David Barnard 5596 71.11%
45. Abdirizak Hirsi 5789 71.11%
45. Chris Hunt 3883 71.11%
54. Terry Knowles 2396 70.37%
54. Scott Mearns 2557 70.37%
54. Clive Spate 362 70.37%
54. James Sheppard 2872 70.37%
54. Darren Shacklady 1623 70.37%
54. Kevin McMahon 2970 70.37%
54. David Acton 1766 70.37%
54. Bhavin Manek 2093 70.37%
62. Harshan Lamabadusuriya S7 69.70%
63. Andrew Hulme 5639 68.89%
63. Jimmy Gough 4816 68.89%
63. George Greenhough 3359 68.89%
63. Neil Green 5918 68.89%
63. John Mayhew 3954 68.89%
63. Matthew Shore 4121 68.89%
63. Paul James 5612 68.89%
70. Nic Brown 818 68.75%
70. Don Reid 1855 68.75%
70. John Ashmore 2292 68.75%
73. Darryl Francis 287 66.67%
73. Melvin Hetherington 2656 66.67%
73. Pamela Roud 2538 66.67%
73. Rory Dunlop 2589 66.67%
73. Mickie O'Neill 2591 66.67%
73. Neil Zussman 4841 66.67%
73. David Ballheimer 2795 66.67%
73. John Clarke 538 66.67%
73. Peter McGuigan 2777 66.67%
73. Matthew Turner 2895 66.67%
73. Daniel Pati 5174 66.67%
73. Peter Lee 5435 66.67%
73. John Davies 4122 66.67%
73. Derek Coombs 1016 66.67%
73. Chris Waddington 1195 66.67%
73. David Williams 2831 66.67%
73. Andy Bodle 1415 66.67%
73. Alec Webb 1423 66.67%
73. Andy Cusworth 1640 66.67%
73. Jason Turner 5962 66.67%
73. Catriona Cappleman 1685 66.67%
73. Graham Cross 1692 66.67%
73. Richard Heald 3956 66.67%
73. Tony Killilea 1926 66.67%
73. Jon Corby 4746 66.67%
73. Simon Born 4169 66.67%
73. David Nickeas 3292 66.67%
73. Ricky Zinger 2141 66.67%
73. Steven Briers 4745 66.67%
- Graeme Cole
- Series 65 Champion
- Posts: 2045
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Re: Ask Graeme?
15 round octochamps, and the lowest number of maxes they scored in any game in their octorun:Gavin Chipper wrote:I don't think this has been asked before - can you list the octochamps in order of the lowest number of maxes they got in a game? Can't think where I got that idea from.
Code: Select all
1. Dylan Taylor 11
2. Edward McCullagh 10
2. Jack Hurst 10
2. Jen Steadman 10
2. Julian Fell 10
6. Andy Platt 9
6. Craig Beevers 9
6. Giles Hutchings 9
6. Jonathan Rawlinson 9
10. Andrew Hulme 8
10. Chris Davies 8
10. Conor Travers 8
10. Eoin Monaghan 8
10. George Greenhough 8
10. Graeme Cole 8
10. Mark Murray 8
10. Peter Lee 8
10. Stewart Holden 8
19. Adam Gillard 7
19. Cate Henderson 7
19. Chris Cummins 7
19. Chris Wills 7
19. Dan McColm 7
19. Daniel Pati 7
19. David Barnard 7
19. David O'Donnell 7
19. Glen Webb 7
19. Innis Carson 7
19. Jack Welsby 7
19. Jack Worsley 7
19. John Mayhew 7
19. Jon Corby 7
19. Kirk Bevins 7
19. Mark Davies 7
19. Mark Deeks 7
19. Martin Bishop 7
19. Paul Howe 7
19. Steven Briers 7
19. Stuart Earl 7
19. Tom Hargreaves 7
19. Tom Rowell 7
19. Tricia Pay 7
43. Aaron Webber 6
43. Alex Fish 6
43. Bradley Cates 6
43. Eileen Taylor 6
43. George Ford 6
43. James Hurrell 6
43. John Davies 6
43. John Hunt 6
43. Jon O'Neill 6
43. Kevin Thurlow 6
43. Lee Hartley 6
43. Marcus Hares 6
43. Martin Gardner 6
43. Mike Pullin 6
43. Oliver Garner 6
43. Richard Heald 6
43. Ross Allatt 6
43. Ryan Taylor 6
43. Samir Pilica 6
43. Shane Roberts 6
43. Tom Barnes 6
43. Wendy Roe 6
65. Amey Deshpande 5
65. Andrew Naylor 5
65. Andy McGurn 5
65. Antoinette Ryan 5
65. Charlie Reams 5
65. David Von Geyer 5
65. Gary Male 5
65. Jean Webby 5
65. Jim Bentley 5
65. Jimmy Gough 5
65. John Brackstone 5
65. Junaid Mubeen 5
65. Kai Laddiman 5
65. Keith Maynard 5
65. Liam Shaw 5
65. Mark Tournoff 5
65. Matthew Shore 5
65. Ned Pendleton 5
65. Neil Zussman 5
65. Nik Von Uexkull 5
65. Paul Gallen 5
65. Richard Brittain 5
65. Rupert Stokoe 5
65. Scott Gillies 5
65. Stu Horsey 5
65. Stuart Solomons 5
65. Sweyn Kirkness 5
65. Tim Reypert 5
93. Chris McHenry 4
93. Danny Hamilton 4
93. Danny Pledger 4
93. Dave Taylor 4
93. David Edwards 4
93. Grace Page 4
93. Heather Styles 4
93. James Roberts 4
93. Jayne Wisniewski 4
93. Jeffrey Burgin 4
93. Jeffrey Hansford 4
93. Joe McGonigle 4
93. Joe Zubaidi 4
93. John Gray 4
93. Jonathan Liew 4
93. Laurence Killen 4
93. Michael Bowden 4
93. Michael Macdonald-Cooper 4
93. Nick Wainwright 4
93. Paul James 4
93. Paul Keane 4
93. Richard Pay 4
93. Rose Boyle 4
93. Steven Moir 4
117. Brenda Jolley 3
117. Brian Selway 3
117. Carl Williams 3
117. David Thirlwall 3
117. Jonathan Coles 3
117. Judith Young 3
117. Julia Wilkinson 3
117. Tony Warren 3
125. Chris Marshall 2
125. James Doohan 2
125. Suzi Purcell 2
128. Steve Wood 1
128. Tia Corkish 1
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Re: Ask Graeme?
omg THAT'S MY NAMEGraeme Cole wrote:9 rounder: Lindsay Denyer, who dropped no more than 27 and no fewer than 17 points in any game in her octorun.Thomas Carey wrote:Interesting, but nines could skew this a lot (unless you're George). Could you please repeat this with most consistent in terms of points lost from the max?Graeme Cole wrote: In new 15 round games, Dylan Taylor scored most consistently, his highest score being 129 and the lowest 113.
In old 15 round games, it was Tom Hargreaves, who had a highest score of 111 and a lowest score of 98.
In 9 round games, it was Sharon Bridge, with 63 and 51.
Old 15: Andrew Hulme dropped no more than 22 and no fewer than 15 points.
New 15: George Ford dropped no more than 29 and no fewer than 12 - a difference of 17 - but Andy Platt, who did half his octorun in the new format, dropped no more than 24 and no fewer than 11, a difference of 13.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Excellent work as always Graeme. A lot of that was expected but there were one or two surprises. I wasn't surprised at all to see Helen Grayson, Harvey Freeman and Allan Saldanha at the top of the 9-round table for maxes in three consecutive games, although it was very close so could have gone differently. The more I see the more I think that those three reached the highest level in the 9-round era.
A couple of surprises though - Simon Born getting 30 maxes in three consecutive games. Also, Susan Shilton getting 20 in the 9-round era. I had to look both of these people up. Also, that no-one managed a minimum of five maxes (the minimum you need for most of the maxes in a game) in their octorun in the 9-round era. 19 people have got a minimum of eight or more in the 15-round era. I know it's not exactly the same, but it's still slightly surprising.
A couple of surprises though - Simon Born getting 30 maxes in three consecutive games. Also, Susan Shilton getting 20 in the 9-round era. I had to look both of these people up. Also, that no-one managed a minimum of five maxes (the minimum you need for most of the maxes in a game) in their octorun in the 9-round era. 19 people have got a minimum of eight or more in the 15-round era. I know it's not exactly the same, but it's still slightly surprising.
- Clive Brooker
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Re: Ask Graeme?
All 9-rounders were played using a version of the COD, so the recaps, typically created with a version of the ODE, are liable to overstate the max available at the time. Has no-one pointed this out before?Gavin Chipper wrote:A couple of surprises though - Simon Born getting 30 maxes in three consecutive games. Also, Susan Shilton getting 20 in the 9-round era. I had to look both of these people up. Also, that no-one managed a minimum of five maxes (the minimum you need for most of the maxes in a game) in their octorun in the 9-round era. 19 people have got a minimum of eight or more in the 15-round era. I know it's not exactly the same, but it's still slightly surprising.
So it could have happened.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
They (you) have indeed!Clive Brooker wrote:All 9-rounders were played using a version of the COD, so the recaps, typically created with a version of the ODE, are liable to overstate the max available at the time. Has no-one pointed this out before?Gavin Chipper wrote:A couple of surprises though - Simon Born getting 30 maxes in three consecutive games. Also, Susan Shilton getting 20 in the 9-round era. I had to look both of these people up. Also, that no-one managed a minimum of five maxes (the minimum you need for most of the maxes in a game) in their octorun in the 9-round era. 19 people have got a minimum of eight or more in the 15-round era. I know it's not exactly the same, but it's still slightly surprising.
So it could have happened.
- Ben Wilson
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Re: Ask Graeme?
All your work in this thread has been awesome and we can't underestimate enough just how amazing it is to trawl through all these stats, especially those about Octochamps.Graeme Cole wrote:15 round octochamps, and the lowest number of maxes they scored in any game in their octorun:Gavin Chipper wrote:I don't think this has been asked before - can you list the octochamps in order of the lowest number of maxes they got in a game? Can't think where I got that idea from.
For 9 rounders, incomplete data makes it a bit more tricky. For example, my database query thinks Lindsay Denyer got no maxes in this game because the max column is full of question marks and she didn't score question mark minus question mark in any of those rounds. However, the record holders appear to be Bhavin Manek, David Acton, Gareth Williams, Harvey Freeman, Jonathan Anstey, Kevin McMahon, Sanjay Mazumder, Terry Knowles and Tim Morrissey, who scored at least four maxes in every game of their octoruns.Code: Select all
1. Dylan Taylor 11 2. Edward McCullagh 10 2. Jack Hurst 10 2. Jen Steadman 10 2. Julian Fell 10 6. Andy Platt 9 6. Craig Beevers 9 6. Giles Hutchings 9 6. Jonathan Rawlinson 9 10. Andrew Hulme 8 10. Chris Davies 8 10. Conor Travers 8 10. Eoin Monaghan 8 10. George Greenhough 8 10. Graeme Cole 8 10. Mark Murray 8 10. Peter Lee 8 10. Stewart Holden 8 19. Adam Gillard 7 19. Cate Henderson 7 19. Chris Cummins 7 19. Chris Wills 7 19. Dan McColm 7 19. Daniel Pati 7 19. David Barnard 7 19. David O'Donnell 7 19. Glen Webb 7 19. Innis Carson 7 19. Jack Welsby 7 19. Jack Worsley 7 19. John Mayhew 7 19. Jon Corby 7 19. Kirk Bevins 7 19. Mark Davies 7 19. Mark Deeks 7 19. Martin Bishop 7 19. Paul Howe 7 19. Steven Briers 7 19. Stuart Earl 7 19. Tom Hargreaves 7 19. Tom Rowell 7 19. Tricia Pay 7 43. Aaron Webber 6 43. Alex Fish 6 43. Bradley Cates 6 43. Eileen Taylor 6 43. George Ford 6 43. James Hurrell 6 43. John Davies 6 43. John Hunt 6 43. Jon O'Neill 6 43. Kevin Thurlow 6 43. Lee Hartley 6 43. Marcus Hares 6 43. Martin Gardner 6 43. Mike Pullin 6 43. Oliver Garner 6 43. Richard Heald 6 43. Ross Allatt 6 43. Ryan Taylor 6 43. Samir Pilica 6 43. Shane Roberts 6 43. Tom Barnes 6 43. Wendy Roe 6 65. Amey Deshpande 5 65. Andrew Naylor 5 65. Andy McGurn 5 65. Antoinette Ryan 5 65. Charlie Reams 5 65. David Von Geyer 5 65. Gary Male 5 65. Jean Webby 5 65. Jim Bentley 5 65. Jimmy Gough 5 65. John Brackstone 5 65. Junaid Mubeen 5 65. Kai Laddiman 5 65. Keith Maynard 5 65. Liam Shaw 5 65. Mark Tournoff 5 65. Matthew Shore 5 65. Ned Pendleton 5 65. Neil Zussman 5 65. Nik Von Uexkull 5 65. Paul Gallen 5 65. Richard Brittain 5 65. Rupert Stokoe 5 65. Scott Gillies 5 65. Stu Horsey 5 65. Stuart Solomons 5 65. Sweyn Kirkness 5 65. Tim Reypert 5 93. Chris McHenry 4 93. Danny Hamilton 4 93. Danny Pledger 4 93. Dave Taylor 4 93. David Edwards 4 93. Grace Page 4 93. Heather Styles 4 93. James Roberts 4 93. Jayne Wisniewski 4 93. Jeffrey Burgin 4 93. Jeffrey Hansford 4 93. Joe McGonigle 4 93. Joe Zubaidi 4 93. John Gray 4 93. Jonathan Liew 4 93. Laurence Killen 4 93. Michael Bowden 4 93. Michael Macdonald-Cooper 4 93. Nick Wainwright 4 93. Paul James 4 93. Paul Keane 4 93. Richard Pay 4 93. Rose Boyle 4 93. Steven Moir 4 117. Brenda Jolley 3 117. Brian Selway 3 117. Carl Williams 3 117. David Thirlwall 3 117. Jonathan Coles 3 117. Judith Young 3 117. Julia Wilkinson 3 117. Tony Warren 3 125. Chris Marshall 2 125. James Doohan 2 125. Suzi Purcell 2 128. Steve Wood 1 128. Tia Corkish 1
Speaking as a Viscount, however, I feel overwhelmingly like this ->
- Graeme Cole
- Series 65 Champion
- Posts: 2045
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Lowest number of maxes scored by viscounts in heat games:Ben Wilson wrote:All your work in this thread has been awesome and we can't underestimate enough just how amazing it is to trawl through all these stats, especially those about Octochamps.
Speaking as a Viscount, however, I feel overwhelmingly like this ->
Code: Select all
1. Ben Wilson 6
2. Phil Wass 5
2. Loz Sands 5
4. Ian McMenzie 3
4. Paul Ryan 3
- Ben Wilson
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Awesome as always, Mr. C.Graeme Cole wrote:Lowest number of maxes scored by viscounts in heat games:Ben Wilson wrote:All your work in this thread has been awesome and we can't underestimate enough just how amazing it is to trawl through all these stats, especially those about Octochamps.
Speaking as a Viscount, however, I feel overwhelmingly like this ->
Code: Select all
1. Ben Wilson 6 2. Phil Wass 5 2. Loz Sands 5 4. Ian McMenzie 3 4. Paul Ryan 3
- Clive Brooker
- Devotee
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Whenever I see conclusions drawn which are based on compromised data, I'm always likely to point this out.Gavin Chipper wrote:They (you) have indeed!Clive Brooker wrote:All 9-rounders were played using a version of the COD, so the recaps, typically created with a version of the ODE, are liable to overstate the max available at the time. Has no-one pointed this out before?Gavin Chipper wrote:A couple of surprises though - Simon Born getting 30 maxes in three consecutive games. Also, Susan Shilton getting 20 in the 9-round era. I had to look both of these people up. Also, that no-one managed a minimum of five maxes (the minimum you need for most of the maxes in a game) in their octorun in the 9-round era. 19 people have got a minimum of eight or more in the 15-round era. I know it's not exactly the same, but it's still slightly surprising.
So it could have happened.
In the past I've estimated that due largely to the COD's smaller word-base, there is a round with an overstated max in every other game or thereabouts. Many of the missing words are extremely familiar to modern players. So in a typical octorun there is plenty of time for errors in max-count to occur.
Just to show that my objection is not entirely theoretical, a quick look at David Acton's record shows that his only 4-max game was this one. Patronne is not a COD9 word, and if there is no other compensating error, such as an Amercanism which the recapper didn't find, his minimum max-count goes up to 5.
I picked Mr Acton at random - I haven't looked at anyone else. My check was entirely manual so it's possible that I've missed something.
-
- Post-apocalypse
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Interesting finding, Clive. And good work.
- Graeme Cole
- Series 65 Champion
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- Clive Brooker
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Re: Ask Graeme?
I'm certainly not intentionally having a go at anyone - just glad of the opportunity to play my record yet again whilst clinging to the hope that things can be improved without a disproportionate amount of effort!
A couple of questions Graeme: I seem to remember you commenting that you've found and corrected many errors in the Wiki. Does this mean that the narrative versions of the recaps are now frequently out of step? I doubt whether this would worry most users nowadays as everyone seems to use links to the Wiki when they want to refer to a particular game, but maybe the historical recap area needs to be given some sort of health warning.
IMO one of the biggest issues with the Wiki, and therefore with your database is that not all recappers used the same approach, some using the output as it emerged from the recapping tool, others (notably Mike Brown) manually removing words that weren't in the dictionary of the day. And it is impossible to tell by looking at a recap what approach was used.
Would it be possible, without too much effort, to regenerate the max data for all Wikicaps using a single word-list? I'm not sure which is regarded as the most reliable - ODE2r perhaps? Then, knowing what we're working with, it would be relatively simple to manually mark any words which don't appear to have been valid when a game was played, and when that's finished, max data can be regenerated. The old dictionaries are not hard to find in secondhand bookshops or on eBay, with the possible exception of the original roadsidegate version of COD10 which was withdrawn after a few months.
This doesn't of course deal with the opposite problem - that of words which have disappeared (possibly not a big problem) and more particularly American spellings. I have a suggestion here: I have a pdf version of the COD8. The site I originally downloaded it from seems to have gone but I can make it available to anyone interested. I don't think it would be difficult for someone with the appropriate skills (sorry I think I'm looking at you again Graeme) to extract any American variants. I did a rough exercise a while ago and there seemed to be a few hundred at most. Using a COD8 American spellings list across the board is obviously not perfect but it would remove much of the bias introduced by not including American spellings at all.
I know I've managed to inspire some enthusiasm for change in the past, but a coordinated approach has failed to emerge. I have the impression that counting maxes is seen as the most straightforward and robust measure of a player's overall strength, in which case shouldn't some priority be given to removing some of the obvious bias in the recaps of older games?
- Graeme Cole
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Re: Ask Graeme?
The wiki errors I corrected (see my contributions for 24th to 29th March 2013) came from consistency checks I did on the database to make sure there weren't any nonsensical situations, such as both players scoring different nonzero amounts in the same round, somebody scoring a number of points other than what their declaration would suggest, and (very common) the game's score or max on the series page not agreeing with what the episode page says.Clive Brooker wrote: A couple of questions Graeme: I seem to remember you commenting that you've found and corrected many errors in the Wiki. Does this mean that the narrative versions of the recaps are now frequently out of step? I doubt whether this would worry most users nowadays as everyone seems to use links to the Wiki when they want to refer to a particular game, but maybe the historical recap area needs to be given some sort of health warning.
Most of the errors seemed to come from arithmetic errors in manually-generated recaps. If I pick one of the affected episodes more or less at random, the mistake I fixed in that one (the cumulative max column was wrong from R10 onwards) doesn't seem to have affected the recap. If I look at an older game, such as the series 13 final, which had the score for R7 the wrong way round, the recap for that isn't affected either.
On the other hand, the error in the wikicap for episode 939 is in the historical recap (the spelling of VISAGE in R1).
So in answer to your question, some of these errors affect the wikicaps only, and some affect both the wikicaps and the historical recaps. It all depends where the error crept in.
It's certainly possible in principle to write a script that reads the wikitext of an episode, recalculates the max according to a supplied wordlist, and then updates the page. Getting the wordlist isn't trivial, though, even with a copy of the dictionary. It's not something that can be done entirely automatically, because for some words you'd still have to check the definition to see if a plural is acceptable, etc.Clive Brooker wrote: IMO one of the biggest issues with the Wiki, and therefore with your database is that not all recappers used the same approach, some using the output as it emerged from the recapping tool, others (notably Mike Brown) manually removing words that weren't in the dictionary of the day. And it is impossible to tell by looking at a recap what approach was used.
Would it be possible, without too much effort, to regenerate the max data for all Wikicaps using a single word-list? I'm not sure which is regarded as the most reliable - ODE2r perhaps? Then, knowing what we're working with, it would be relatively simple to manually mark any words which don't appear to have been valid when a game was played, and when that's finished, max data can be regenerated. The old dictionaries are not hard to find in secondhand bookshops or on eBay, with the possible exception of the original roadsidegate version of COD10 which was withdrawn after a few months.
This doesn't of course deal with the opposite problem - that of words which have disappeared (possibly not a big problem) and more particularly American spellings. I have a suggestion here: I have a pdf version of the COD8. The site I originally downloaded it from seems to have gone but I can make it available to anyone interested. I don't think it would be difficult for someone with the appropriate skills (sorry I think I'm looking at you again Graeme) to extract any American variants. I did a rough exercise a while ago and there seemed to be a few hundred at most. Using a COD8 American spellings list across the board is obviously not perfect but it would remove much of the bias introduced by not including American spellings at all.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Presumably you mean "even with an electronic copy of the dictionary"?Graeme Cole wrote:It's certainly possible in principle to write a script that reads the wikitext of an episode, recalculates the max according to a supplied wordlist, and then updates the page. Getting the wordlist isn't trivial, though, even with a copy of the dictionary. It's not something that can be done entirely automatically, because for some words you'd still have to check the definition to see if a plural is acceptable, etc.
This is why I've tried to scale back my ambition to something which will remove much of the bias in the Wiki without attempting to be a 100% solution. I'm no longer suggesting building a complete word-list for the COD8 or anything else. The process can use any recent Countdown word-list to get all the Wikicaps on an even footing (NODE, ODE2r, ODE3, whichever is regarded as the soundest) and adjust things from there.
Sometimes I can't really understand why I should care about this at all. I think it's because having seen all the hard work that went into the historical recap project, and the extraordinary level of analysis you've been able to apply to the resulting database, it seems a pity not to try to eradicate the obvious bias in the data undermining many of the analyses people ask you for. But that still doesn't really explain it.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
It's probably worth mentioning these in the recap threads.Graeme Cole wrote:On the other hand, the error in the wikicap for episode 939 is in the historical recap (the spelling of VISAGE in R1).
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Yes.Clive Brooker wrote:Presumably you mean "even with an electronic copy of the dictionary"?Graeme Cole wrote:It's certainly possible in principle to write a script that reads the wikitext of an episode, recalculates the max according to a supplied wordlist, and then updates the page. Getting the wordlist isn't trivial, though, even with a copy of the dictionary. It's not something that can be done entirely automatically, because for some words you'd still have to check the definition to see if a plural is acceptable, etc.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Andy McGurn made a post wondering whether Ryan or Graeme should make the 1000th post or reply (can't remember which he said) and then deleted it. Maybe he realised that as his post was the 999th reply it made it the 1000th post so he didn't want it to be so. But don't worry guys. You're in safe hands. I've got this covered. This is now the 1000th post.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
And this is the 1000th reply.
No need to thank me. All in a day's work.
No need to thank me. All in a day's work.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Yes indeed.
But since you're a politician, you can get away with it and I can't.
But since you're a politician, you can get away with it and I can't.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
I find it quite concerning that Gevin is wasting time on posts like these rather than thinking about the needs of his electorate. It's almost like he views them with contempt.Andy McGurn wrote:Yes indeed.
But since you're a politician, you can get away with it and I can't.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
They certainly have now (Not that it should be shouted out.......)George Pryn wrote:HI GRAEME!!! Big fan
Have any players ever scored 0 over all letters rounds in a game? (competitive score not raw)
thx
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Hello Graeme - apologies if this has been asked before, but...
For all octochamps - what's been the greatest difference between someone's letter max percentage and someone's numbers max percentage?
For all octochamps - what's been the greatest difference between someone's letter max percentage and someone's numbers max percentage?
Possibly the first contestant to accelerate with a mic clipped...
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Even if the two is and the two ss have been swapped over?Gavin Chipper wrote:Yeah, it's not an anagram if it's the same.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
They're fungible!Stewart Gordon wrote:Even if the two is and the two ss have been swapped over?Gavin Chipper wrote:Yeah, it's not an anagram if it's the same.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
What's the lowest total score and number of maxes for a one-time winner, two-time winner and so on?
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Re: Ask Graeme?
I'm assuming this means the maxes in their octorun, and that you mean the difference in percentage points between the percentage of letters rounds they maxed and the percentage of numbers rounds they maxed.Zarte Siempre wrote:Hello Graeme - apologies if this has been asked before, but...
For all octochamps - what's been the greatest difference between someone's letter max percentage and someone's numbers max percentage?
A numbers round max is when you score the most points available. (Gevin begs to differ.)
Letters maxes from before the ODE2r are sometimes wrong.
The biggest disparity is with Suzanne Miles, who maxed 25% of her letters rounds but 81.25% of her numbers rounds, a difference of 56.25 percentage points.
The next is Jim Bentley, who maxed 35.23% of his letters rounds and 87.5% of his numbers rounds, a difference of 52.27 percentage points.
Third, Jack Worsley maxed 44.32% of his letters rounds, but maxed all but one numbers round, 95.83%, giving him a difference of 51.52 percentage points. (Note these figures are to two decimal places, so in case you try doing the subtraction yourself to check it, there are rounding errors.)
Fourth is Laurence Killen from last series: 36.25% on the letters, 87.5% on the numbers, making the difference 51.25.
Sharon Bridge appears next on the data we do have, but round details for her last heat aren't known so we don't have the exact figures.
The list is overwhelmingly populated with talented numberists whose letters max rate, good enough though it was to win them eight games, was still nowhere near their numbers performance. Since the introduction of the ODE2r, only about 12% of octochamps have had a higher max rate on the letters than the numbers. The highest such disparity is that of Samir Pilica, who maxed 68.75% of his letters rounds and 46.875% of his numbers rounds.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Lowest total scores:Gavin Chipper wrote:What's the lowest total score and number of maxes for a one-time winner, two-time winner and so on?
15 rounds:
1 win: Bev Jones (88)
2 wins: Rob Jennings (165)
3 wins: Ken Jenkins (251)
4 wins: Ben Nicholson (328)
5 wins: Brian Roles (427)
6 wins: Ian McMenzie (511)
7 wins: Peter Zyss (617)
8 wins: Danny Pledger (635)
9 rounds:
1 win: Duncan Dale-Emberton (48)
2 wins: Mark Cooper (89)
3 wins: Elizabeth Thomson (131)
4 wins: Kathleen Vickers (187)
5 wins: Eleanor Crosby (245)
6 wins: Nancy Roberts (308)
7 wins: Joan Orchard (329)
8 wins: Lindsay Denyer (386)
Lowest maxes:
I've only included 15 round games for this one, as round score and/or max data for the early 9 round games is often not there, to the point where the conclusions aren't very useful.
1 win: Brian Morley and Bev Jones (2)
2 wins: Rob Jennings (6)
3 wins: Ken Jenkins (10)
4 wins: Margaret Lawless (16)
5 wins: Brian Roles and Neil MacKenzie (26)
6 wins: Paul Ryan (32)
7 wins: David Stanford (33)
8 wins: Chris McHenry, Steve Wood and Suzi Purcell (37)
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Thanks Graeme. Nice work as always. Also, sorry to be a pain, but would it be possible to do that including just winning games as well, so not including their final, losing game?
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Re: Ask Graeme?
For once, we viscounts get recognised!Graeme Cole wrote:Lowest total scores:Gavin Chipper wrote:What's the lowest total score and number of maxes for a one-time winner, two-time winner and so on?
15 rounds:
1 win: Bev Jones (88)
2 wins: Rob Jennings (165)
3 wins: Ken Jenkins (251)
4 wins: Ben Nicholson (328)
5 wins: Brian Roles (427)
6 wins: Ian McMenzie (511)
7 wins: Peter Zyss (617)
8 wins: Danny Pledger (635)
9 rounds:
1 win: Duncan Dale-Emberton (48)
2 wins: Mark Cooper (89)
3 wins: Elizabeth Thomson (131)
4 wins: Kathleen Vickers (187)
5 wins: Eleanor Crosby (245)
6 wins: Nancy Roberts (308)
7 wins: Joan Orchard (329)
8 wins: Lindsay Denyer (386)
Lowest maxes:
I've only included 15 round games for this one, as round score and/or max data for the early 9 round games is often not there, to the point where the conclusions aren't very useful.
1 win: Brian Morley and Bev Jones (2)
2 wins: Rob Jennings (6)
3 wins: Ken Jenkins (10)
4 wins: Margaret Lawless (16)
5 wins: Brian Roles and Neil MacKenzie (26)
6 wins: Paul Ryan (32)
7 wins: David Stanford (33)
8 wins: Chris McHenry, Steve Wood and Suzi Purcell (37)
...though in this case, I'm not entirely sure it's warranted. Obviously I wouldn't dare speak for Gev but I'm reasonably sure for 6-time winners he'd be interested in those who won 6 games by subsequently lost their 7th. At the very least, I would be.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Yes Neb. That would make the most sense, but only on the list that includes winning and losing games. The reason I (belatedly) asked about just the winning games was because I was wondering about the minimum level people have had to reach to scrape a certain number of wins.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Don't know if there's enough data on this, but...
What's the highest number of maxes achieved by DC in a 9-round / 15-round game, and how many times have they achieved it?
What's the highest number of maxes achieved by DC in a 9-round / 15-round game, and how many times have they achieved it?
Mike Brown: "Round 12: T N R S A E I G U
C1: SIGNATURE (18) ["9; not written down"]
C2: SEATING (7)
Score: 108–16 (max 113)
Another niner for Adam and yet another century. Well done, that man."
C1: SIGNATURE (18) ["9; not written down"]
C2: SEATING (7)
Score: 108–16 (max 113)
Another niner for Adam and yet another century. Well done, that man."
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Re: Ask Graeme?
I know your database won't cover any of this series, but I believe Andy Noden has an even bigger disparity (76.25% on letters, 53.13% on numbers). That's using the stricter Gevin numbers max definition though, which may or may not affect the results.Graeme Cole wrote:The highest such disparity is that of Samir Pilica, who maxed 68.75% of his letters rounds and 46.875% of his numbers rounds.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
The sensible definition of max you mean. It's not just me anyway. I'd be surprised if a majority didn't feel it was the better definition.Fred Mumford wrote:I know your database won't cover any of this series, but I believe Andy Noden has an even bigger disparity (76.25% on letters, 53.13% on numbers). That's using the stricter Gevin numbers max definition though, which may or may not affect the results.Graeme Cole wrote:The highest such disparity is that of Samir Pilica, who maxed 68.75% of his letters rounds and 46.875% of his numbers rounds.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
I agree completely, that's why it's the definiton I use too.Gavin Chipper wrote:The sensible definition of max you mean. It's not just me anyway.
A max should be "doing the best that it's possible to do" rather than "scoring the most available points, even though you might not have done so if your opponent had been a bit better".
The problem with the "doing the best that it's possible to do" definition is that you can't really apply it to conundrums - to discount a successful guess that took 1.5 seconds on the grounds that it could have been beaten is a little ludicrous. But for numbers games, it's the right thing to do.
Anyway, I checked the wiki, and it didn't affect any of Samir's or Andy's games.
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Or to phrase it slightly differently.. "scoring the maximum available points".Fred Mumford wrote:Gavin Chipper wrote:rather than "scoring the most available points
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Could you quote it 'differently' too Jono?
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Re: Ask Graeme?
Quite right, of course. The next lowest maxes for six-time champions is 36, by Priscilla Munday, Daniel Peake, Graham Hill and Nick Hall.Ben Wilson wrote:For once, we viscounts get recognised!
...though in this case, I'm not entirely sure it's warranted. Obviously I wouldn't dare speak for Gev but I'm reasonably sure for 6-time winners he'd be interested in those who won 6 games by subsequently lost their 7th. At the very least, I would be.