Future of online Countdown tournaments

[Martin Gardner]

I was just thinking, with Apterous.org it's now possible to organise a whole tournament in a single day if people are free. There would be no need to do a COGST style tournament, unless people really wanted to. It's a pretty important step. I suspect people don't want to do six games in a day, but tournaments with fewer games, or games over two days could be organised.

[Paul Howe]

Maybe, but for tournaments the size of COGST you're going to have problems getting that many people online in such a short timeframe. apterous would be awesome for smaller, rapidly organised stuff though, like an impromptu 10 second Goatdown tournament (this is now my favourite way of playing Countdown btw )

[Julie T]

I was just thinking, with Apterous.org it's now possible to organise a whole tournament in a single day if people are free.

I only joined apterous.org yesterday. It's a great site, programmed well. I've only played 3 games so far, against the computer 'bots'.
I'm finding it difficult to input my numbers round methods, though - not succeeded yet!

It's great for practise, and I know I'll probably get the hang of it after a few games, but I'd prefer a more human referee for a tournament.

[Kirk Bevins]

but I'd prefer a more human referee for a tournament.

Really? A human referee may miss words when checking in a dictionary - a computer won't.

[Jon O'Neill]

Maybe, but for tournaments the size of COGST you're going to have problems getting that many people online in such a short timeframe. apterous would be awesome for smaller, rapidly organised stuff though, like an impromptu 10 second Goatdown tournament (this is now my favourite way of playing Countdown btw )

Agree. I am looking forward to such tournaments. Also 10 second Goatdown is definitely the best form of the game. Goatdown has been revitalised.

but I'd prefer a more human referee for a tournament.

Really? A human referee may miss words when checking in a dictionary - a computer won't.

I'm with Julie on this. I trust a human with a dictionary more than the wordlist.

[Julian Fell]

Jono and Julie, I'm glad somebody thinks the same way as me re human intervention!

Apterous is a great tool but I think for tournaments organized on the forum, you have to give people the option of playing on MSN as well - a lot of people are struggling with Apterous, and even if you aren't, IMHO MSN still has some advantages over Apterous, pending possible future improvements by Charlie, e.g. knowing what kind of selection your opponent's chosen on the numbers game before the actual numbers come up, and having TV-style conundrums of an appropriate difficulty level. And, as mentioned, being able to appeal to a human if a letters-game ruling is clearly wrong! (yes, I know this will be rare because Jim's wordlist is v accurate, but still)

[Martin Gardner]

I tend to agree, there's no reason that Apterous should "replace" MSN tournaments as there are advantages to them, they're friendly and you can have emoticons, conundrums set by people tend to be better than computer ones too. But there's no reason why you couldn't have one-day Apterous tournaments and multi-day MSN tournaments going on at roughly the same time.

[Charlie Reams]

I tend to agree, there's no reason that Apterous should "replace" MSN tournaments as there are advantages to them

I can't imagine people will be queuing up to act as hosts when it can be done automatically, but if people want to waste their time then I won't dissuade them. I've probably hosted more games than anyone else in the last 4 years and I don't intend to do any more. MSN has a massive number of disadvantages, which I think are obvious to anyone who's tried both. But one thing we can all agree on about this place is its unflinching resistance to change, so I'm sure MSN games will continue for many years yet.

they're friendly and you can have emoticons

Apterous has chat too.

conundrums set by people tend to be better than computer ones too.

I agree with you there, but a human can't set 100 new conundrums a day. Also the computer never makes mistakes like conundrums with the wrong letters, not in the dictionary etc, which has certainly happened in MSN games.

[Ben Wilson]

I agree Apterous is definitely the future of online tournaments but it'd be a shame if msn play died out altogether. The hours spent talking complete crap before and after each game would be missed by at least one person.

[Julian Fell]

I tend to agree, there's no reason that Apterous should "replace" MSN tournaments as there are advantages to them

I can't imagine people will be queuing up to act as hosts when it can be done automatically, but if people want to waste their time then I won't dissuade them. I've probably hosted more games than anyone else in the last 4 years and I don't intend to do any more. MSN has a massive number of disadvantages, which I think are obvious to anyone who's tried both. But one thing we can all agree on about this place is its unflinching resistance to change, so I'm sure MSN games will continue for many years yet.

Ouch... that's a bit brutal, Charlie me old mate. I realize you've put a lot of time and effort into developing Apterous so you're obviously protective of it, but you seem to be taking things a bit personally here. Nobody's doubting that Apterous has been and is a huge success - you only have to look at all the positive comments in the Apterous forum, and all the games that have been played, to see that. Despite people's "unflinching resistance to change", I think you'll find that most tournament games are already being played on Apterous even though it was only released a few weeks ago - I'd say that's not bad going. If a new venture of mine had that much take-up in the early stages, I'd be delighted.

It just takes a bit of getting used to that's all, and if either player in an online game isn't familiar with the format, it's best to play on MSN because that's easier to get to grips with - otherwise you get situations like Bevins vs. Priest It's a bit harsh to call this "wasting your time" and stigmatize people who do it as reactionaries. Be a bit gentler next time, eh?

[Ben Wilson]

I can't imagine people will be queuing up to act as hosts when it can be done automatically, but if people want to waste their time then I won't dissuade them. I've probably hosted more games than anyone else in the last 4 years and I don't intend to do any more. MSN has a massive number of disadvantages, which I think are obvious to anyone who's tried both. But one thing we can all agree on about this place is its unflinching resistance to change, so I'm sure MSN games will continue for many years yet.

Erm, nyet. If this place was so unflinchingly resistant to change we'd all still be on Yahoo groups rather than this (obviously superior) forum, just as in the future most tournament games will be played on the (obviously superior) Apterous rather than msn. Give it time, it will happen- just not immediately.

[Joseph Bolas]

I tend to agree, there's no reason that Apterous should "replace" MSN tournaments as there are advantages to them, they're friendly and you can have emoticons, conundrums set by people tend to be better than computer ones too. But there's no reason why you couldn't have one-day Apterous tournaments and multi-day MSN tournaments going on at roughly the same time.

But if you remember Martin, we originally were going to play our COGST game on MSN (10th Sept), but noone was avialable to host, so we then decided to play on Apterous, which was much easier IMO. Also all the rounds, scores and recaps etc are done automatically, so the game is much quicker and tidier.

When it comes to emoticons, just because you can't post a ' ' in Apterous, doesn't mean that you can't type : D (without the gap obviously), because people are still bound to know that : D is a big grin, : ) is a smile and lol is laughing etc.

[Charlie Reams]

Ouch... that's a bit brutal, Charlie me old mate. I realize you've put a lot of time and effort into developing Apterous so you're obviously protective of it, but you seem to be taking things a bit personally here. Nobody's doubting that Apterous has been and is a huge success - you only have to look at all the positive comments in the Apterous forum, and all the games that have been played, to see that. Despite people's "unflinching resistance to change", I think you'll find that most tournament games are already being played on Apterous even though it was only released a few weeks ago - I'd say that's not bad going. If a new venture of mine had that much take-up in the early stages, I'd be delighted.

It just takes a bit of getting used to that's all, and if either player in an online game isn't familiar with the format, it's best to play on MSN because that's easier to get to grips with - otherwise you get situations like Bevins vs. Priest It's a bit harsh to call this "wasting your time" and stigmatize people who do it as reactionaries. Be a bit gentler next time, eh?

Maybe I should employ you as my spokesman. I have no talent (or inclination) for putting things gently. You're right that I'm protective of Apterous, but I also wrote Countgen, which is at the heart of MSN Countdown, so there's more to it than that. I find it frustrating when people cling to the familiar even in the face of vastly superior alternatives. The battle we had to get this forum started, which almost everyone now agrees was the right decision, illustrates the problem.

Also it sounds like you misread my time-wasting comment. I think it's a waste of someone's time to host a game when they don't need to. I didn't intend to call the whole MSN game a waste of time; it's been the driving force of this community for the last 4 years, but I think that, for the majority of purposes, its time has passed. There are occasional exceptions, for people facing technical problems and so on. But I think it's a mistake to introduce new players to MSN game on the basis that it's "easier", when it involves numerous strange conventions and deviations from the programme. Most people grasp Apterous after a couple of practice games and never look back, and with the various chat features it's now easier than ever to get help with the subtleties. I think that's a better direction to be encouraging newbies towards.

[Martin Gardner]

Tend to agree that Apterous is far superior although I was thinking more of the point that Ben made, the hours of talking rubbish before and after games.

[Paul Howe]

If my opponent wanted to play on MSN I'd defer to their wishes, but I'd much rather play my games on apterous. However, I think there needs to be some way of overruling when the wordlist is incorrect and of ensuring the conundrums aren't trivial for the later games (CARPETING in a tournament final? Bleh). Apologies if these have already been tackled. Also, there's always the side panel if you want to talk rubbish, I can usually do without this and like how apterous keeps the idle chat separated from the actual gameplay.

I think it's just a case of giving people time to get comfortable with it though, not everyone will pick it up at the same rate and some of the timers are harsh compared even to being on the show (not a criticism, I prefer this) so I can appreciate it will take people time to get used to things and wouldn't want to force anyone to play in a format they're not completely comfortable with.