C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Jon O'Neill »

Matt Morrison wrote:Main Event at 9:30pm again - $5 entry, this time with the same chips (2000) but quicker blinds (3m).

Co-main event at 8:30pm, £2 entry with 1500 chips and 3min blinds.

Preliminary fight at 7:30pm, $1 entry with 1000 chips (maybe? could be 1500, who knows) and 3min blinds.)
What day?
Last edited by Jon O'Neill on Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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Matt Morrison wrote:Main Event at 9:30pm again - $5 entry, this time with the same chips (2000) but quicker blinds (3m).

Co-main event at 8:30pm, £2 entry with 1500 chips and 3min blinds.

Preliminary fight at 7:30pm, $1 entry with 1000 chips (maybe? could be 1500, who knows) and 3min blinds.)
Is this today?
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Matt Morrison »

Yeah should be today unless I fucked up. It should have e-mailed round to people.
Lemme check.... yeah today. I hope you can all join.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Jon O'Neill »

I'll play in all of them yeah
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Matt Morrison »

distinct lack of participants with 2 hours to go to the preliminary match! :(
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Michael Wallace »

Matt Morrison wrote:distinct lack of participants with 2 hours to go to the preliminary match! :(
I'll probably join in for the main event, if I do the other ones it will ruin the fact I put in enough money to have precisely three $5 tournaments in my account.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Matt Morrison »

Michael Wallace wrote:
Matt Morrison wrote:distinct lack of participants with 2 hours to go to the preliminary match! :(
I'll probably join in for the main event, if I do the other ones it will ruin the fact I put in enough money to have precisely three $5 tournaments in my account.
You talk like it's impossible for you to win any money back! Would you be angry if you won a quantity that wasn't a multiple of $5.50?
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Jon O'Neill »

I'm registered in all three now.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Ryan Taylor »

I would play but like I say I still have no idea where my passport is and I'm already in debt $3.

(yes that is a hint to anybody who would like to loan me some money)
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Ian Volante »

I'm in for the main event, will see what's happening food-wise regarding the others.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Matt Morrison »

Trothopps (United Kingdom) ?
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Michael Wallace »

Matt Morrison wrote:
Michael Wallace wrote:
Matt Morrison wrote:distinct lack of participants with 2 hours to go to the preliminary match! :(
I'll probably join in for the main event, if I do the other ones it will ruin the fact I put in enough money to have precisely three $5 tournaments in my account.
You talk like it's impossible for you to win any money back! Would you be angry if you won a quantity that wasn't a multiple of $5.50?
With gambling, I always operate on the assumption that I'll lose (so if, e.g., on Paddy I end up with an odd number of pence, then that will get absorbed in my next stake).
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Nick Wainwright »

Is there room for me to join? I could make the 9.30pm game tonight.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Matt Morrison »

Nick Wainwright wrote:Is there room for me to join? I could make the 9.30pm game tonight.
Course. You'll have to get Jono to confirm your entry to Da Club before you can sign up for any tourneys tho, so don't leave it too late.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Nick Wainwright »

Matt Morrison wrote:
Nick Wainwright wrote:Is there room for me to join? I could make the 9.30pm game tonight.
Course. You'll have to get Jono to confirm your entry to Da Club before you can sign up for any tourneys tho, so don't leave it too late.
Thanks - I've registered now.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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welcome to the clubbbbbb
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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Image

another week, another AA cracked!
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Matt Morrison »

some odd colours on that screenshot. muted as you like.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Jon O'Neill »

i think thats so i dont confuse it with tables im actually on. like when a team scores in tv sports, then she goes mad, then when shes calmed down and sees the replay she goes mad again thinking another goal/try/wicket has happened. it happens LOADS.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Jimmy Gough »

Pretty sure Pokerstars is rigged fwiw.

Proof - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66_QqECQ ... re=related
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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Jimmy Gough wrote:Pretty sure Pokerstars is rigged fwiw.

Proof - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66_QqECQ ... re=related
A reputation for being rigged = commercial suicide. I strongly doubt it. I can't watch that video here, but I'm assuming it's a series of highly improbable cards coming out?
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Jon O'Neill »

Ian Volante wrote:
Jimmy Gough wrote:Pretty sure Pokerstars is rigged fwiw.

Proof - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66_QqECQ ... re=related
A reputation for being rigged = commercial suicide. I strongly doubt it. I can't watch that video here, but I'm assuming it's a series of highly improbable cards coming out?
It was that hand I posted above where my AA got cracked by QJ.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Michael Wallace »

Just checked my bank, and it hasn't charged me an international fee, so that's cool.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Charlie Reams »

Ian Volante wrote:
Jimmy Gough wrote:Pretty sure Pokerstars is rigged fwiw.

Proof - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66_QqECQ ... re=related
A reputation for being rigged = commercial suicide. I strongly doubt it. I can't watch that video here, but I'm assuming it's a series of highly improbable cards coming out?
I think Jimmy was joking, although it's hard to tell with the Interweb in the way.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Ian Volante »

Charlie Reams wrote:
Ian Volante wrote:
Jimmy Gough wrote:Pretty sure Pokerstars is rigged fwiw.

Proof - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66_QqECQ ... re=related
A reputation for being rigged = commercial suicide. I strongly doubt it. I can't watch that video here, but I'm assuming it's a series of highly improbable cards coming out?
I think Jimmy was joking, although it's hard to tell with the Interweb in the way.
I can't tell if people are being serious in real life, so I've no chance on screen!
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Mark James »

I assume everyone got the email about the Pro Bounty Home Game. Are we gonna do this? We have to try get Vicky Coren to join our Home game. That would be sweet.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Jon O'Neill »

Mark James wrote:I assume everyone got the email about the Pro Bounty Home Game. Are we gonna do this? We have to try get Vicky Coren to join our Home game. That would be sweet.
I'm all about Liv Boeree..
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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Jon O'Neill wrote:
Mark James wrote:I assume everyone got the email about the Pro Bounty Home Game. Are we gonna do this? We have to try get Vicky Coren to join our Home game. That would be sweet.
I'm all about Liv Boeree..
How does Sunday sound for people? If we get 6 people in small buy-in tournaments for the next few Sundays then we get the best chance of a pro and money!
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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I can do Sunday
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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Sound. Sunday works for me.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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All set for tomorrow at 9pm. We need 6 players to make us elegible for the Pro thing!
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Jon O'Neill »

Fuck, completely forgot! I think I'll let Matt Morrison organise them in future..
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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Jon O'Neill wrote:Fuck, completely forgot! I think I'll let Matt Morrison organise them in future..
Bit silly since needing 6 players total you had three six hours before the event started.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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Jimmy Gough wrote:Pretty sure Pokerstars is rigged fwiw.
I read the Metro.co.uk video game review section and on the letters pages was someone questioning the appeal of online poker because its fixed. I sent a letter in defending poker sites, particularly PokerStars as that's the one I'm on, and I included my PSN ID at the end of my letter. I then received a message on PSN from someone who had seen my letter saying they cheat on PokerStars all the time. Apparently they use some kind of software. Obviously its not the site itself doing the cheating but I would've thought they'd have a way to detect illegal software being used. Am I wrong?
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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Mark James wrote:
Jimmy Gough wrote:Pretty sure Pokerstars is rigged fwiw.
I read the Metro.co.uk video game review section and on the letters pages was someone questioning the appeal of online poker because its fixed. I sent a letter in defending poker sites, particularly PokerStars as that's the one I'm on, and I included my PSN ID at the end of my letter. I then received a message on PSN from someone who had seen my letter saying they cheat on PokerStars all the time. Apparently they use some kind of software. Obviously its not the site itself doing the cheating but I would've thought they'd have a way to detect illegal software being used. Am I wrong?
How would you cheat?

Edit: I know that sounds trite but you can't just use "some kind of software". It would have to involve a pretty serious attack on the PokerStars site and, given the amount of skill required and money available, I doubt you'd be writing into a newspaper website to boast about it.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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Mark James wrote:
Jimmy Gough wrote:Pretty sure Pokerstars is rigged fwiw.
I read the Metro.co.uk video game review section and on the letters pages was someone questioning the appeal of online poker because its fixed. I sent a letter in defending poker sites, particularly PokerStars as that's the one I'm on, and I included my PSN ID at the end of my letter. I then received a message on PSN from someone who had seen my letter saying they cheat on PokerStars all the time. Apparently they use some kind of software. Obviously its not the site itself doing the cheating but I would've thought they'd have a way to detect illegal software being used. Am I wrong?
They probably mean by using a bot? Botting is one way of cheating, yeah. They have quite sophisticated ways of preventing it on the major sites, PokerStars particularly, but there are probably cases that slip through the net. They don't give out how they do it of course but I imagine any big winner will be looked at more closely by the sites. I think it is a big problem on smaller sites with lower security budgets which don't have an incentive to stoppeople using bots (the bots fill up the tables and make games happen, which pays rake to the site). Chinese Sit 'n' Go bot ring is probably the biggest profile one from PokerStars.

My guess is that the message you got was from someone planning on selling you a bot? Dunno. Is it someone reputable? Report them, get their funds seized.. they're stealing.
Charlie Reams wrote:How would you cheat?
- Bots (as above).
- Collusion with other players - quite easily detectable if it's a large scheme since these players will be on the same tables all the time.
- Multi-accounting (playing on someone else's account against somebody who doesn't know it so you have information about the way they play but they don't about you, giving you an unfair advantage)
- Data-mining (buying hand history files from tracking sites like PTR to get a similar advantage)
- "Superusing" (Being someone in the company who has access to the other person's hole cards and abusing that information to win money) - main example of this being the UltimateBet scandal a few years ago. They tried to sweep it under the carpet but got exposed by the poker community. They're knobs.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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Jon O'Neill wrote:They have quite sophisticated ways of preventing it on the major sites, PokerStars particularly
PokerStars Security actually visited some guy's house because he passed all their regular bot testing but could play like 100+ tournaments at once. That's dedication.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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Jon O'Neill wrote:
Charlie Reams wrote:How would you cheat?
- Bots (as above).'
I was under the impression that bots are pretty bad at poker. Otherwise it's pretty foolish to play for money. You wouldn't play online Scrabble for cash.
Jon O'Neill wrote:- Collusion with other players - quite easily detectable if it's a large scheme since these players will be on the same tables all the time.
Yep, so presumably it's not that.
Jon O'Neill wrote:- Multi-accounting (playing on someone else's account against somebody who doesn't know it so you have information about the way they play but they don't about you, giving you an unfair advantage)
- Data-mining (buying hand history files from tracking sites like PTR to get a similar advantage)
How is that cheating? You might as well say bluffing is cheating.
- "Superusing" (Being someone in the company who has access to the other person's hole cards and abusing that information to win money) - main example of this being the UltimateBet scandal a few years ago. They tried to sweep it under the carpet but got exposed by the poker community. They're knobs.
Again easily detectable, so it can't be that.

I think when people talk about "cheating" they usually mean something like a loaded deck. I've never seen any evidence of that.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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Charlie Reams wrote: How would you cheat?

Edit: I know that sounds trite but you can't just use "some kind of software". It would have to involve a pretty serious attack on the PokerStars site and, given the amount of skill required and money available, I doubt you'd be writing into a newspaper website to boast about it.
He didn't write in to the newspaper, he contacted me privately through the playstation network message system. I suspected the software he said he was using was just information gathering stuff on other players hand history which I personally wouldn't count as cheating. Although he did also mention collusion with his friends, sharing hand information and that.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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Charlie Reams wrote:
Jon O'Neill wrote:
Charlie Reams wrote:How would you cheat?
- Bots (as above).'
I was under the impression that bots are pretty bad at poker. Otherwise it's pretty foolish to play for money. You wouldn't play online Scrabble for cash.
In Limit Hold'Em, there is a bot that can beat like 98% of players. There are rake-free heads-up limit hold'em machines in some Vegas casinos, which play very well according to top limit players.

In No-Limit or Pot-Limit games I think it is much harder to make a bot that is very competent. But I could write the rules for one that could beat 1c/2c blinds on PokerStars no problem. And that's just me, I'm crap at poker. So you just have to trust the sites to find this kind of thing. It's conceivable that there are very sophisticated bots being used undetected.
Charlie Reams wrote:
Jon O'Neill wrote:- Multi-accounting (playing on someone else's account against somebody who doesn't know it so you have information about the way they play but they don't about you, giving you an unfair advantage)
- Data-mining (buying hand history files from tracking sites like PTR to get a similar advantage)
How is that cheating? You might as well say bluffing is cheating.
I guess this comes down to the definition of cheating. Poker is a game of information. Having information about an opponent that you've gained from bought hand histories could be as useful as knowing one of their hole cards.

Having said that, banning data-mining does introduce a grey area though. Are you allowed to talk strategy with someone who has played against an opponent without disclosing to them that you have talked to player x before you play them? Tell them about a hand? If so, how is that different to getting hand histories from a tracking site?

Multi-accounting,an example: at the higher stakes you'll find that a lot of the top players don't play each other because they know their edge against each other isn't greater than the rake to the site so it's a losing proposition for all involved. So if you arrive with a new account that this opponent hasn't seen before to get action and play them with all the information you've gained about them previously, you'll have a big edge until they find out or have played with the new account long enough to have as much information.
Charlie Reams wrote:
- "Superusing" (Being someone in the company who has access to the other person's hole cards and abusing that information to win money) - main example of this being the UltimateBet scandal a few years ago. They tried to sweep it under the carpet but got exposed by the poker community. They're knobs.
Again easily detectable, so it can't be that.

I think when people talk about "cheating" they usually mean something like a loaded deck. I've never seen any evidence of that.
Yeah the cheating isn't as obvious as that. Most people who think the deck is "loaded" online are morons.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Jon O'Neill »

Mark James wrote:
Charlie Reams wrote: How would you cheat?

Edit: I know that sounds trite but you can't just use "some kind of software". It would have to involve a pretty serious attack on the PokerStars site and, given the amount of skill required and money available, I doubt you'd be writing into a newspaper website to boast about it.
He didn't write in to the newspaper, he contacted me privately through the playstation network message system. I suspected the software he said he was using was just information gathering stuff on other players hand history which I personally wouldn't count as cheating. Although he did also mention collusion with his friends, sharing hand information and that.
Not sure what software would do that, unless he's talking about things like PokerTracker, which track your own Hand Histories. That's not cheating.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Mark James »

Just re-read the message he sent, he said he uses pokeredge 5. It is indeed tracking software.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Jon O'Neill »

Mark James wrote:Just re-read the message he sent, he said he uses pokeredge 5. It is indeed tracking software.
It uses their own data-mined hands:
"Billions of Hands
Instant power. No need to purchase hands and wait around importing them."
So it is "cheating". Also I think this is botting and wouldn't be allowed on PokerStars:
"Notifications
Receive custom alerts, such as a good blind steal opportunity. Perfect for multi-tabling!"
So that's "cheating" too. I guess what I mean by "cheating" is just what has come to be accepted in the community as cheating, and therefore what is in the sites' Terms and Conditions. PokerTracker is perfectly legal, PokerEdge is not, and that's just the way it is. Multi-accounting was commonplace in 2005 but over time became considered unethical and ultimately was explicitly banned in the Terms and Conditions. But now that it is, to undertake such activities is definitely cheating.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Jon O'Neill »

This explains it all:

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/prohibited/

Note how PokerEdge is explicitly banned!
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by Charlie Reams »

Cool, glad we got that resolved. If that's against the T&C's then fair enough, it's their line to draw, although the huge list of tools seems pretty arbitrary.

This reminds me of the Kasparov/Deep Blue thing, where the Deep Blue team had studied Kasparov's entire career history, whereas Kasparov had virtually nothing to work with. I think that's a more valid objection than his nebulous claims of human intervention.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by David O'Donnell »

His claims weren't nebulous: in several instances the machine did not play like a machine: he had a valid argument.

Most of the regs on pokerstars and other sites use some form of proscribed software. It instructs you to use it to open your client software so the site cannot identify that you are using proscribed software yet still tries to cling to claims of being ethical. From what I can see it records (and shares hand histories) on every player you encounter to classify them as one type of player over the other. I do not think it helps your game long term since someone can be a rock but with a propensity to bluff in certain characteristic spots. I think picking up in idiosyncrasies is more important than stereotyping a player ... but then I am shit.
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

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David O'Donnell wrote:His claims weren't nebulous: in several instances the machine did not play like a machine: he had a valid argument.
It didn't play like other machines he'd played, which is exactly what you'd expect given that it wasn't like other machines. And it is nebulous because there's no way you can ever prove or disprove it, so he was just casting aspersions.
David O'Donnell wrote:It instructs you to use it to open your client software so the site cannot identify that you are using proscribed software yet still tries to cling to claims of being ethical.
What does this mean?
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Re: C4C Poker Tourneys on Pokerstars

Post by David O'Donnell »

Charlie Reams wrote:
It didn't play like other machines he'd played, which is exactly what you'd expect given that it wasn't like other machines. And it is nebulous because there's no way you can ever prove or disprove it, so he was just casting aspersions.
Computer chess has come such a long way that Deep Blue, which is effectively a brute force calculator, must be regarded as a relic. The computer played a few moves which displayed a sense of horizon rather than using actual calculation. For instance say I sacrifice a pawn in a difficult position because I know there will result a series of exchanges that will result in an opposite colour bishop ending where I am one (even two) pawns down. Now, most computers will still accept the material because it seems so overwhelming but a human player will understand the resultant ending is drawn without calculation. Deep Blue displayed this human sense in a few moves. Kasparov wanted to put the moves played through the computer to see what it suggested, in the presence of an independent adjudicator, but the Deep Blue team did not acquiesce.
David O'Donnell wrote: It instructs you to use it to open your client software so the site cannot identify that you are using proscribed software yet still tries to cling to claims of being ethical.
Charlie Reams wrote: What does this mean?
Not very clear. Most poker sites are designed to detect users who have HUDs. In order to fool the sites these products recommend you open their software first and use it to open your poker site. You'll understand better than me how that can sidestep whatever defences the poker sites possess.These poker products are marketed as training aids yet they deliberately try to undermine the security of the site where you play.

This second point isn't trying to undermine anything you have stated but I guess the first one is. Would Kasparov have lost without human intervention? Probably. Would he have contrived some nebulous excuse in the event of a loss? Definitely.
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