Derren Brown - The Events

[Ryan Taylor]

No, but I love them.

Me too It was a little bit like a 'talent' show with P&T as the judges, but I think they were pretty deliberate in not making it too X-Factory/BGT. Some good tricks on there though (and a couple of naff ones). Penn & Teller did a couple of good ones too, and there was a REALLY good sleight of hand guy with a deck of cards. Love all that stuff.

Yeah I watched that when it was on although missed the first 2 acts so actually watched it this morning. Strangely it was this morning when I watched Derren's 'documentary' too. But yeah I thought it was a pretty good show and was under the impression that it was going to be a regular thing but apparently it is a one off? The mobile phone trick at the start was good and yeah the sleight of hand guy was very clever and Penn and Teller thought they were on to something but it turned out they "FOOLED US!!!". I liked that little twist on the revealing how the saw-a-magician-in-half-trick is done.

Oh. Well I don't like the direction he's heading in then.

Sadly he stated in the show that he is more interested in focusing the attention on other individuals in his stuff now (like the Hero at 30,000 feet) rather than all the focus being on him and manipulating an audience's mind, which like you, I find a shame since I thought his Evening of Wonders is one of the best things, if not the best, that he has done. I've not seen him live but my friend went to one of his recent tours and said he was simply stunning, funny, provocative, entertaining and mind blowing.

Something cool that I didn't know until seeing the programme is that one of the guys who Derren used for his Seance now helps him write some of his material.

[Rosemary Roberts]

No, but I love them.

I missed it as well, but it's being repeated on 19th January.

[Gavin Chipper]

I saw that John Archer (who was on Penn and Teller) supporting Tim Vine a while back. I'm pretty sure he's also Flag Hippo. He did the same thing when I saw him, but I can't remember which was the winning envelope (whether it was the same one). I thought he might have been just doing psychological trick stuff to get people to not pick the envelope and thought it was quite interesting that Penn and Teller said they couldn't work out what he was doing. They said earlier on in the show something about not believing in mind control rubbish - maybe they've just closed their minds to the effectiveness of certain psychological techniques. I dunno though.

[Ryan Taylor]

I saw that John Archer (who was on Penn and Teller) supporting Tim Vine a while back. I'm pretty sure he's also Flag Hippo. He did the same thing when I saw him, but I can't remember which was the winning envelope (whether it was the same one). I thought he might have been just doing psychological trick stuff to get people to not pick the envelope and thought it was quite interesting that Penn and Teller said they couldn't work out what he was doing. They said earlier on in the show something about not believing in mind control rubbish - maybe they've just closed their minds to the effectiveness of certain psychological techniques. I dunno though.

Amazing if he is actually Flag Hippo! I didn't know really how it was done with the envelopes but I don't think it would be by psychology or anything like that. I reckon the envelopes are definitely tampered with like Penn and Teller thought he put the money inside but it was confirmed he didn't. Is it a possibility that they all had money in at the start and he just took it out when they picked an envelope?

[Jon Corby]

Yeah, I smiled when Penn & Teller said all that subliminal "ten of hearts" stuff was all BS. I blame Derren Brown for so many people believing in such ridiculous things. I really don't see how it's different to believing in mediums, which he is apparently so vehemently against.

The guy did seem to be sweating it quite a bit when they were questioning him, and he was quite specific about just saying "I don't put anything into the envelopes" (although that's reasonable really that he didn't want to give too much away, but he didn't say "I don't tamper with the envelopes at all" which he probably would do if it was a purely psychological thing, which it couldn't be anyway because that's BS) which did make me think he was probably taking from them instead. I thought it was a pretty tough deal for Penn & Teller actually, as there's probably several ways to achieve most tricks.

[Gavin Chipper]

What about Kieran Child and his fourth cup routine?

[Jon Corby]

What about Kieran Child and his fourth cup routine?

It's a nonsense :p

[Craig Beevers]

Derren Brown: Miracles for Sale on now (Channel 4). It's about faith-healing.

[Ryan Taylor]

Derren Brown: Miracles for Sale on now (Channel 4). It's about faith-healing.

Is it any good?

[Craig Beevers]

Derren Brown: Miracles for Sale on now (Channel 4). It's about faith-healing.

Is it any good?

Yea I feel much better.

Shame the audience at the end was so small (wish they'd have shown the black guy more as the final speech was being read out - would have been hilarious), the program was quite hard to watch in places but definitely interesting.

[Mark James]

Derren Brown: Miracles for Sale on now (Channel 4). It's about faith-healing.

Is it any good?

Yea I feel much better.

Shame the audience at the end was so small (wish they'd have shown the black guy more as the final speech was being read out - would have been hilarious), the program was quite hard to watch in places but definitely interesting.

Like most shows of this ilk it's really only preaching to the converted. I agree the speech at the end was pretty good though and yeah, the expression on the black dude's face was something else. I genuinely felt they hit a nerve with him which, if they did, for me would make the whole thing worthwhile. Although when you see the likes of Popoff being thoroughly exposed and still managing to continue to fleece people it makes you despair.

[Craig Beevers]

Like most shows of this ilk it's really only preaching to the converted. I agree the speech at the end was pretty good though and yeah, the expression on the black dude's face was something else. I genuinely felt they hit a nerve with him which, if they did, for me would make the whole thing worthwhile. Although when you see the likes of Popoff being thoroughly exposed and still managing to continue to fleece people it makes you despair.

To a degree yes it's preaching to the converted. I do still think some of it would filter through to people down the line, and perhaps on other things like 'psychics' where there's quite a big crossover - they seem to be pretty popular over here.

Show is now up on 4oD:

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/derr ... od#3182173

[Mark James]

To a degree yes it's preaching to the converted. I do still think some of it would filter through to people down the line, and perhaps on other things like 'psychics' where there's quite a big crossover - they seem to be pretty popular over here.

Hopefully. As I said they seem to have had an effect on the preacher with that speech at the end. That would be the bigger win. If you could get one "preacher" to stop it would be better than getting one thousand people not to believe.

As for psychics, the worse thing is so many of them think they really are psychic. I wouldn't be surprised if they had slightly more developed intuition than most people but they honestly believe their hits and think its supernatural. I went to a dream interpreter once as I thought it had more to do with psychology but it's essentially the same techniques as cold readers. In reality I was interpreting the dream not her. I could have saved myself 70 bucks. She told me I was psychic too. Hopefully I am and I can get Randi's million.

[Jon O'Neill]

I watched it, you guys summed it up well, particularly "hard to watch in places". I felt quite sorry for Nathan or whatever his name was.

[Ryan Taylor]

Got round to watching this just now and I think it was worth the watch. I genuinely never knew about the whole money business that faith healing had and thought it was only in America (first time I'd seen these things was when Borat goes to one in the film). But yeah, firstly I cannot see how anyone is daft enough in the first place to believe this and then to place money in it. It was an eye opener seeing these famous faith healers who were multi-millionaires just basically raping people of their money. What I don't really get is, if people like Popoff and others have been exposed to be fraudsters then why on earth do people still believe in it? Surely once you have seen something proven to be false you would then realise this and stop giving money? Am I just being naive here?

[Lesley Hines]

why on earth do people still believe in it? Surely once you have seen something proven to be false you would then realise this and stop giving money? Am I just being naive here?

Can you imagine living in daily agony? Or being told you've only got a short time left (10 years ago today I had less than 24 hours to go - funny eh?)? What would you give to be well again, or to make the pain stop? Believe me, when I thought I had only a very short time left (<24h) I gave some very serious consideration to matters of religion*. I lived in a Christian commune for 4 years aged between 16-20, and went to stuff like this. If you're there as an observer it looks genuine, and reaffirms your 'faith'. If you're there to be healed and get even temporary pain relief it's a blessing. If you're not picked that's 'God's will'. If you're told to stop your medication and that you've been actually healed that's despicable. (You can see the downslide here...)

Fair play to Derren Brown for showing the tricks to a wider audience - there've been lots of documentaries about that it's a fake but no-one's ever shown how it's done, and with a complete novice (well, 6 months' training) at that. Respect, I say.

*I decided it was bollocks, but that's another story.

[Jon O'Neill]

More chances for Jon Corby to display his valuable insight tonight... Channel 4 at 9pm.

[Jon Corby]

More chances for Jon Corby to display his valuable insight tonight... Channel 4 at 9pm.

I have literally seen, like, a second's worth of trailer of this. I'm out tonight so I won't be able to give you a live commentary, I'm afraid.

It's called "The Assassin", right? Please tell me the premise of the show isn't "I'm going to make an unwitting member of the public into an assassin without them realising." Please.

[Jon O'Neill]

More chances for Jon Corby to display his valuable insight tonight... Channel 4 at 9pm.

I have literally seen, like, a second's worth of trailer of this. I'm out tonight so I will be able to give you a live commentary, I'm afraid.

It's called "The Assassin", right? Please tell me the premise of the show isn't "I'm going to make an unwitting member of the public into an assassin without them realising." Please.

I think that's it, yeah. A celebrity, apparently.

[Jon Corby]

More chances for Jon Corby to display his valuable insight tonight... Channel 4 at 9pm.

I have literally seen, like, a second's worth of trailer of this. I'm out tonight so I will be able to give you a live commentary, I'm afraid.

It's called "The Assassin", right? Please tell me the premise of the show isn't "I'm going to make an unwitting member of the public into an assassin without them realising." Please.

I think that's it, yeah. A celebrity, apparently.

He's going to make a celebrity into an assassin, or a member of the public into a celebrity assassin?

Sounds like shite either way though. I mean, I know you can make people do extreme stuff like this, but you usually have to kinda take over their life over a period of time and make them (possibly chemically) dependant on you, or perhaps kidnap close members of their family or something. Still, I'll watch with an open mind...

[Jon O'Neill]

I have literally seen, like, a second's worth of trailer of this. I'm out tonight so I will be able to give you a live commentary, I'm afraid.

It's called "The Assassin", right? Please tell me the premise of the show isn't "I'm going to make an unwitting member of the public into an assassin without them realising." Please.

I think that's it, yeah. A celebrity, apparently.

He's going to make a celebrity into an assassin, or a member of the public into a celebrity assassin?

Sounds like shite either way though. I mean, I know you can make people do extreme stuff like this, but you usually have to kinda take over their life over a period of time and make them (possibly chemically) dependant on you, or perhaps kidnap close members of their family or something. Still, I'll watch with an open mind...

The second one.

[Jon Corby]

I probably shouldn't prejudge, but basically what we're going to see is somebody (specifically selected for the part by being "highly suggestible" to Derren i.e., doing everything he tells them) acting out a load of role-plays, utterly secure in the knowledge that Derren's going to put them on TV and there's absolutely no chance of anything detrimental happening to them or anything.

[Jon O'Neill]

I probably shouldn't prejudge, but basically what we're going to see is somebody (specifically selected for the part by being "highly suggestible" to Derren i.e., doing everything he tells them) acting out a load of role-plays, utterly secure in the knowledge that Derren's going to put them on TV and there's absolutely no chance of anything detrimental happening to them or anything.

In other words, they'll be hypnotised.

[Gavin Chipper]

So what did everyone (Corby) make of this then?

[Joseph Krol]

Fake.

[Jon O'Neill]

At the start he explains hypnosis. It is quite interesting.

[Jon Corby]

So what did everyone (Corby) make of this then?

48 minutes of bullshit. I liked Derren when he used to do magic tricks. I went off him when he began to mix "real science" with his phony stuff, without any clear boundaries between the two. I mean, I can handle this but it seems the vast majority of the population are unable to tell, it grates, and the fact that he does nothing about it makes me question his own morality.

However, I believe in this show he sunk to a new low. In the course of proving absolutely nothing to anybody with any brains, he built a spirited defence for the murderer Sirhan Sirhan. So now a huge chunk of the public will believe his innocence, in addition to all the other shit they believe off Derren.

Wow look, a room full of Derren fans do exactly what he wants (without even any time-wasting pretence of hypnotic induction). See how they throw acid in people's faces, even though they won't have thought for a millisecond that it was anything other than water. Even the end wasn't subtle - even our grinning gormless gullible cunt of a hero (a recurring theme in Derren's last few shows) was left in no doubt that it wasn't a "real life situation".

"Here, hang onto this loaded gun until you meet Derren later."
"Okay."

Um. Really?

Utter fucking crap. But I think a first for Derren in that it was actually properly offensive shit.

[Mark James]

So what did everyone (Corby) make of this then?

48 minutes of bullshit. I liked Derren when he used to do magic tricks. I went off him when he began to mix "real science" with his phony stuff, without any clear boundaries between the two. I mean, I can handle this but it seems the vast majority of the population are unable to tell, it grates, and the fact that he does nothing about it makes me question his own morality.

However, I believe in this show he sunk to a new low. In the course of proving absolutely nothing to anybody with any brains, he built a spirited defence for the murderer Sirhan Sirhan. So now a huge chunk of the public will believe his innocence, in addition to all the other shit they believe off Derren.

Wow look, a room full of Derren fans do exactly what he wants (without even any time-wasting pretence of hypnotic induction). See how they throw acid in people's faces, even though they won't have thought for a millisecond that it was anything other than water. Even the end wasn't subtle - even our grinning gormless gullible cunt of a hero (a recurring theme in Derren's last few shows) was left in no doubt that it wasn't a "real life situation".

"Here, hang onto this loaded gun until you meet Derren later."
"Okay."

Um. Really?

Utter fucking crap. But I think a first for Derren in that it was actually properly offensive shit.

This.

That whole acid in the face thing was such rubbish. As if anyone is going to voluntarily stand there if there's a real chance you might get acid in your face.

Although I do think I might be psychic. Hours before the show I genuinely said to myself "I bet the celebrity is Stephen Fry". But then again he'll do anything so it was probably just a reasonable guess.

[Jon O'Neill]

Yeah Stephen Fry being the celebrity in anything is like a 50% possibility. I agree with the general sentiment that this was pretty shit.

The main interesting part was when the professor guy said that nobody would kill another person under hypnosis unless they were already predisposed to kill them.

And the other interesting bit was how they highlighted the rhetoric he uses when hypnotising people by showing the words. I love all that shit.

[Jon O'Neill]

Wow look, a room full of Derren fans do exactly what he wants (without even any time-wasting pretence of hypnotic induction).

Yeah, the people who go there are basically already hypnotised, because they believe so unquestioningly that he is magic.

[Jon Corby]

Wow look, a room full of Derren fans do exactly what he wants (without even any time-wasting pretence of hypnotic induction).

Yeah, the people who go there are basically already hypnotised, because they believe so unquestioningly that he is magic.

It kinda invalidates the whole show though IMO. He could've easily picked that initial woman (whose hands stuck together, just because she looked in his eyes and said they would) or that guy who he did an "interrupted handshake" with (who then promptly fell asleep), and just said there and then "take this loaded gun, it's completely real. Now shoot Stephen Fry. When I click my fingers you'll wake up and have no memory of it" and they would have played along. Everything else was completely redundant.

What made it offensive though was the way he tried to use this bullshit to validate the defence of somebody who actually fucking murdered another man in cold blood. I find it utterly reprehensible.

[Rosemary Roberts]

Agree 100%

[Jon Corby]

FFS, just popped over to DB's website, and his comments page is full of crap like "wow that was amazing" and "it really makes you think how some of these conspiracy theories aren't so far out then". Jesus, some retard even said "it really makes you question the official JFK story" ffs.

How can Derren do this while supposedly debunk bad science and champion critical thinking?

The guy's gone too far this time. I'm proper angry about this one

[Jon O'Neill]

Yes. He has sold out, it is hypocritical, and it does undermine his good efforts in the area of scepticism.

You probably shouldn't get worked up about comments on his website though. You're going to end up with a heart condition if you take every internet idiot seriously.

[Jon Corby]

Yes. He has sold out, it is hypocritical, and it does undermine his good efforts in the area of scepticism.

You probably shouldn't get worked up about comments on his website though. You're going to end up with a heart condition if you take every internet idiot seriously.

This is proper bad though IMO. I bet if you polled these idiots, they'd vote that Sirhan Sirhan should be pardoned and released. It's really not a good idea to make idiots even more stupid.

[Jon O'Neill]

Yeah. Also what was with the lie detector thing? Surely everyone knows they don't work?

[Michael Wallace]

And the other interesting bit was how they highlighted the rhetoric he uses when hypnotising people by showing the words. I love all that shit.

The trouble I have though, is even stuff like this which should be interesting, I've no idea if that's just more bollocks to make it all seem more believable.

Basically agree with everything else already said. I found the whole programme a mixture of boring and frustrating, claiming you've 'proved' something with that acid thing is just ludicrous. The ice bath thing could have been fun, but again, who knows? When you look at his lottery picking show (where most of us properly understand the underlying science), and then look at this, you realise how much of it is probably complete rubbish.

It's not that I'm just an out-and-out hypnotism sceptic or anything. I believe you can do various things with sufficiently susceptible people, make them forget stuff, or remember things they thought they'd forgotten, etc. etc. But all this pseudo-science dressed up as real scientific process is at best boring and at worst a bit dangerous.

Derren used to be cool

[Michael Wallace]

Yeah. Also what was with the lie detector thing? Surely everyone knows they don't work?

Haha, that made me laugh. When Derren was saying "his heart beat will quicken, he'll sweat, yadda yadda, these are involuntary reactions you cannot control" er, except by, say, hypnosis?

[Jon Corby]

Huh, so messages like these make the blog comments section on Derren Brown's website:

Hi Derren,
I asked you some time ago if the Norweigen shooter Anders Behring Breivik could have been
programed to carry out the killings.
I guess you answered my question

Derren, Perhaps your demonstration, or parts of it might be used at his Sirhan Sirhan’s 15th prole attempt. If what you did was totally genuine with little or no trickery involved then why would the authorities NOT take any notice of your work, i getting Sirhan Sirhan released.

but my one pointing out what a disgusting crock it was (in a constructive way, not sweary) failed moderation. Interesting.

[Jon Corby]

Yeah. Also what was with the lie detector thing? Surely everyone knows they don't work?

Haha, that made me laugh. When Derren was saying "his heart beat will quicken, he'll sweat, yadda yadda, these are involuntary reactions you cannot control" er, except by, say, hypnosis?

Hmm, since I'm not all up for the "power of hypnosis" (as portrayed by stage hypnotists), I would think some kind of trickery is a much simpler option. Who says the polygraph test itself was even done after the restaurant shooting? (I've only watched once so I'm relying on my appalling memory, but I don't think he was shown the video during the test itself, was he?)

I extend this to making him forget about stuff. It's worth adding the caveat though that maybe the Stephen Fry thing wasn't as we saw in the edit. Funny how nobody had leaked this, isn't it? Well no, it isn't - they had all applied to see Derren Brown, and instead been invited to see Stephen Fry. They were all made to sign disclaimers not to go public. So what else aren't they telling us? It's perfectly possible that the Stephen Fry talk passed without incident while our hero was watching, and that the shooting was edited in from some other time, which would explain some confusion on his part.

Which, actually, is all fairly neat, and I can appreciated that on a level. If only he hadn't done the whole Sirhan Sirhan thing.

[Jon O'Neill]

Yeah. Also what was with the lie detector thing? Surely everyone knows they don't work?

Haha, that made me laugh. When Derren was saying "his heart beat will quicken, he'll sweat, yadda yadda, these are involuntary reactions you cannot control" er, except by, say, hypnosis?

Hmm, since I'm not all up for the "power of hypnosis" (as portrayed by stage hypnotists), I would think some kind of trickery is a much simpler option. Who says the polygraph test itself was even done after the restaurant shooting? (I've only watched once so I'm relying on my appalling memory, but I don't think he was shown the video during the test itself, was he?)

I extend this to making him forget about stuff. It's worth adding the caveat though that maybe the Stephen Fry thing wasn't as we saw in the edit. Funny how nobody had leaked this, isn't it? Well no, it isn't - they had all applied to see Derren Brown, and instead been invited to see Stephen Fry. They were all made to sign disclaimers not to go public. So what else aren't they telling us? It's perfectly possible that the Stephen Fry talk passed without incident while our hero was watching, and that the shooting was edited in from some other time, which would explain some confusion on his part.

Which, actually, is all fairly neat, and I can appreciated that on a level. If only he hadn't done the whole Sirhan Sirhan thing.

It would be a pretty cheap trick to swap the order of everything around. Even when he did the lottery dual screen thing he held up a cut-out snowflake at the end to "admit" it. I can't imagine he would sink that low, particularly when you can do it by hypnosis.

Yes, the Sirhan Sirhan thing is pretty bad... doesn't mean it was all a ruse. Plenty of stuff remains confidential. His stage show (apparently) relies on fans not giving stuff away. I'm not convinced I've understood the point you're making here though.

[Jon Corby]

Yes, the Sirhan Sirhan thing is pretty bad... doesn't mean it was all a ruse. Plenty of stuff remains confidential. His stage show (apparently) relies on fans not giving stuff away. I'm not convinced I've understood the point you're making here though.

How do you mean? My point was that there is (hopefully) some level of trickery still going on once you strip away the (IMO) fact that you can't actually hypnotise people to do stuff that they don't want to do and then forget about it. So I'm trying to think what that might have been. If your point is "that's a cheap stunt, Derren wouldn't do that", then I don't think that has any validity anymore (I probably would have once agreed with you) when he uses camera tricks and stooges.

[Jon O'Neill]

So you're happy with him rearranging the order of things but not happy with camera tricks and stooges?

But yeah I know what you mean about his validity. I dunno why I'm even bothering to argue the point. Of course I do disagree about hypnosis. But he's not just a hypnotist when he presents it as a scientific experiment.

[Michael Wallace]

Yeah, I can see that it would be easier to just properly cheat the polygraph thing. I just found it amusing hearing Derren say "YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY CONTROL THESE THINGS" when they seem to be precisely the sorts of things that you can supposedly control through hypnosis (maybe Derren has even claimed so himself? I'm not sure). That's not to say that's how I think they did it, though.

I thought it was a bit rubbish that the polygraph tester knew the truth - once again an opportunity to demonstrate good (or at least some semblance of) scientific procedure goes begging. Why not have a few silly things he's done, give the tester a set of questions that include them, and see if he can spot them?

[Jon Corby]

So you're happy with him rearranging the order of things but not happy with camera tricks and stooges?

But yeah I know what you mean about his validity. I dunno why I'm even bothering to argue the point. Of course I do disagree about hypnosis. But he's not just a hypnotist when he presents it as a scientific experiment.

Meh - I'm okay to a degree with camera tricks and stooges (and use of the edit). I don't think they're particularly clever or impressive magical devices, but then you could argue the same of most other magical devices. I would just say "I don't think he's that great a magician" and that would be that (see the thread on Dynamo for an example). My gripe with Derren has always been his promotion of his own brand of pseudoscience, which he juxtaposes seamlessly with proper factual elements, and the average half-witted viewer can't tell the difference. And yet he's obviously happy for that to continue, as it's what makes him popular, while at the same time exposes similar fakery in others. I find it hypocritical and immoral. And you know how I'm all about the morals.

Are you saying you believe it's possible to hypnotise people to do something against their will, and have no memory of it? Genuinely?

[Jon Corby]

I thought it was a bit rubbish that the polygraph tester knew the truth - once again an opportunity to demonstrate good (or at least some semblance of) scientific procedure goes begging. Why not have a few silly things he's done, give the tester a set of questions that include them, and see if he can spot them?

Yeah, we only saw a heavily edited snatch. Basically, we have absolutely no idea what really went on. So we're just left taking Derren's word for it. Not gonna do that I'm afraid.

[Jon Corby]

Ooh, a toned-down version of my comment passed moderation this time.

[Jon Corby]

Four-in-a-row

[Jon O'Neill]

Are you saying you believe it's possible to hypnotise people to do something against their will, and have no memory of it? Genuinely?

It depends what you mean by "against their will". I don't think it's possible to make someone kill someone against their will. I think the guy in Assassin knew that he wasn't going to kill Stephen Fry.

I think it's definitely possibly to make people forget things temporarily if they want to. It takes someone pretty thick and co-operative, but that is basically what his "suggestibility" testing is for.

[Jon Corby]

I think it's definitely possibly to make people forget things temporarily if they want to.

Actually, genuinely, really, have no memory of? Or just pretending to have no memory of? There is a difference.

[Michael Wallace]

Are you saying you believe it's possible to hypnotise people to do something against their will, and have no memory of it? Genuinely?

It depends what you mean by "against their will". I don't think it's possible to make someone kill someone against their will. I think the guy in Assassin knew that he wasn't going to kill Stephen Fry.

I think it's definitely possibly to make people forget things temporarily if they want to. It takes someone pretty thick and co-operative, but that is basically what his "suggestibility" testing is for.

Yeah, I'm pretty much of this opinion too. Have we already discussed the hilarity of "oh yeah, here's a loaded gun, give it to Derren afterwards"? I would Freak The Fuck Out and refuse to go near it.

[Jon Corby]

Have we already discussed the hilarity of "oh yeah, here's a loaded gun, give it to Derren afterwards"? I would Freak The Fuck Out and refuse to go near it.

Yeah, a bit further up the page

ETA actually, here's an interesting discussion though. Let's say everything happened as we saw it, but actually he really did give him a loaded gun. Stephen Fry is shot dead. Does our hero get charged with murder, or does Derren? What happens if, for example, in a play or TV shoot, somebody swaps the prop gun with a real one? Surely the actor himself who pulls the trigger isn't culpable? Is this situation any different because of the supposed hypnosis? (Has a court of law ever paid the slightest attention to the power of hypnosis?)

[Jon O'Neill]

I think it's definitely possibly to make people forget things temporarily if they want to.

Actually, genuinely, really, have no memory of? Or just pretending to have no memory of? There is a difference.

Is there though? People can convince themselves of some crazy shit. Just look at Rhys Benjamin.

[Jon Corby]

I think it's definitely possibly to make people forget things temporarily if they want to.

Actually, genuinely, really, have no memory of? Or just pretending to have no memory of? There is a difference.

Is there though? People can convince themselves of some crazy shit. Just look at Rhys Benjamin.

Yes, of course there is.

[Jon O'Neill]

Well, I don't think there is.

[Jon Corby]

Well, I don't think there is.

Okay - when we saw the audience members on Friday "forget" their name, what do you think their thought process was when Derren asked what their name was? Did they genuinely not know, or did they think "ah, I'm supposed to not know this, so I'll pretend as if I'm asked something I didn't know." See if I'm asked to name something, I would try to do so. This would mean thinking back as much as I could about it, trying to associate it with other things, and all the other weird stuff that you do without even realising it when you try and remember something. Maybe I had a conversation outside with somebody, and they used my name in it. What's happened to my memory of that conversation?

A common stage hypnotism gag is something like "you forget the number six". Ignoring the ambiguity of that statement (do you know there's something in that ordinal position and you just can't remember its name (if so, would you still recognise the word written down?) or do you skip straight to seven when counting - why does nobody seek clarification of ambiguous directions from the hypnotist?), they then usually ask them to do something simple like "count your fingers" and everybody rolls about laughing as they either count to 11 (missing out 6) or just get stuck after 5. Do you genuinely believe they don't know the number 6, or they are just pretending not to?

[Jon O'Neill]

Well, I don't think there is.

Okay - when we saw the audience members on Friday "forget" their name, what do you think their thought process was when Derren asked what their name was? Did they genuinely not know, or did they think "ah, I'm supposed to not know this, so I'll pretend as if I'm asked something I didn't know." See if I'm asked to name something, I would try to do so. This would mean thinking back as much as I could about it, trying to associate it with other things, and all the other weird stuff that you do without even realising it when you try and remember something. Maybe I had a conversation outside with somebody, and they used my name in it. What's happened to my memory of that conversation?

A common stage hypnotism gag is something like "you forget the number six". Ignoring the ambiguity of that statement (do you know there's something in that ordinal position and you just can't remember its name (if so, would you still recognise the word written down?) or do you skip straight to seven when counting - why does nobody seek clarification of ambiguous directions from the hypnotist?), they then usually ask them to do something simple like "count your fingers" and everybody rolls about laughing as they either count to 11 (missing out 6) or just get stuck after 5. Do you genuinely believe they don't know the number 6, or they are just pretending not to?

I believe they think they don't know their names. Obviously they know it. They're not acting though - hypnotised people with no training in acting act completely bewildered. The mental process you would go through in that situation, hypnotically "suggestible" people don't go through. You're intelligent enough to know that you haven't forgotten it, but for someone so convinced by hypnosis and Derren Brown's abilities, I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to think they have forgotten it.

I think you're underestimating how thick people are, and how willing we are as social creatures to deceive ourselves for the sake of some external stimulus.

I'm having difficulty putting it into words or making examples which fit. How about a person who pretends to like a band to fit in with their friends. Then they convince themselves they like them so much that they actually do like them. I've done this several times. I'd argue that we all do it to varying degrees.

[Rosemary Roberts]

A common stage hypnotism gag is something like "you forget the number six". Ignoring the ambiguity of that statement (do you know there's something in that ordinal position and you just can't remember its name (if so, would you still recognise the word written down?) or do you skip straight to seven when counting - why does nobody seek clarification of ambiguous directions from the hypnotist?), they then usually ask them to do something simple like "count your fingers" and everybody rolls about laughing as they either count to 11 (missing out 6) or just get stuck after 5. Do you genuinely believe they don't know the number 6, or they are just pretending not to?

Acting as though you have "forgotten" the number six is not easy. If they were just pretending I would expect that at least some people would trip themselves up: whenever I have seen this done there was no hiatus in the counting. But I agree that stage hypnotists' victims do manage to follow the most idiotic and ambiguous instructions - which ought to be even more difficult with half your brain switched off.

[Jon Corby]

Acting as though you have "forgotten" the number six is not easy. If they were just pretending I would expect that at least some people would trip themselves up: whenever I have seen this done there was no hiatus in the counting. But I agree that stage hypnotists' victims do manage to follow the most idiotic and ambiguous instructions - which ought to be even more difficult with half your brain switched off.

Yes, it's not easy - which is why the hypnotist will only ever ask them the most basic of counting questions (count your fingers). People would get tripped up if you began to ask them anything more complex around the theme, I'm certain of it.

[Rosemary Roberts]

Jon, we will never get to the bottom of this until you go to a live show yourself and volunteer. Should we be having a whip-round for your ticket?