Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Julie T
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Home Educators Eat Babies!

Post by Julie T »

Home Educators Eat Babies! :shock:

http://tinyurl.com/c5s8cy

Maybe I should be in DC on apterous! :lol:
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

Post by Martin Gardner »

I'd sort of like to reply just to show that I have read it but.... hmm.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

Post by Julie T »

Thanks, Martin. You could almost see the tumbleweed blowing through this thread. :lol:

News Biscuit obviously has spoof news stories. I enjoy the headlines they send to my inbox, as well as the real ones I get from The Times. :D

This one was written, presumably by a Home Edder, to satirise and highlight the fact that the NSPCC has twice recently linked Home Education to child abuse.
When the papers run with their comments, the NSPCC say that's not quite what they meant, but they seem to keep doing it again and again.

(I Home Educate my youngest 3 children BTW, in case you hadn't realised the connection. )
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Julie T wrote:(I Home Educate my youngest 3 children BTW, in case you hadn't realised the connection. )
Wait a second - you said it was 4 children last time...! :o :shock:
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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No doubt there are circumstances where it's beneficial, but I can't imagine how greatly impoverished my life would have been if I'd been home educated.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Charlie Reams wrote:No doubt there are circumstances where it's beneficial, but I can't imagine how greatly impoverished my life would have been if I'd been home educated.
Would your life have been better if you'd been eaten as a child?
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Charlie Reams wrote:No doubt there are circumstances where it's beneficial, but I can't imagine how greatly impoverished my life would have been if I'd been home educated.
Anyone see that documentary out Britain's smartest kids about 6 months ago? I'm not referring to the most recent one in February this year which was a bit shit.

Some of them were home educated, and what it means is that while they may have an education that's more tailored to their individual needs, they miss out on a lot of important stuff. Obviously the fact that we all need to work with other people, have communication skills, learn to put others first. Kids need as much contact with other kids as they can reasonably get.

Julie, I think we've either discussed this on the forum or on MSN, so I know there are circumstances in your case. I'm not having a go at you - nor am I saying it's always a bad idea. If you have exceptionally bright or slower kids, they can really benefit from it, but I think as a parent you have to make sure that they make friends and have same-age contact outside of school.

IMO.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Martin Gardner wrote:Kids need as much contact with other kids as they can reasonably get.
:shock:
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

Post by Neil Zussman »

Martin Gardner wrote:Kids need as much contact with other kids as they can reasonably get.
I guess that explains why Martin *had* his first girlfriend when he was about seven... :shock: :?
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Neil Zussman wrote:
Martin Gardner wrote:Kids need as much contact with other kids as they can reasonably get.
I guess that explains why Martin *had* his first girlfriend when he was about seven... :shock: :?
Oh fuck off lol.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Martin Gardner wrote:Anyone see that documentary out Britain's smartest kids about 6 months ago? I'm not referring to the most recent one in February this year which was a bit shit.
Yeah, I watched that documentary - they've done two so far right? There should be another one soon I think, the last one was in March and I think it's every two years. Oh yeah and it had the little asian kid who beat carol at the numbers. Or is that a different one? That woman who used to give her children presents if their child passed their 11+ (lol) and that awesome kid who was obviously the best (think he had a weird name) and yeah that kid who was quite good chess - he was "home-schooled", I think he was the one you mean and he had no friends his own age.

I kind of wish I was home-schooled though, well, secondary school at least - those places are fucking horrible.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Jon Corby wrote:
Julie T wrote:(I Home Educate my youngest 3 children BTW, in case you hadn't realised the connection. )
Wait a second - you said it was 4 children last time...! :o :shock:
LOL! :lol:

Yes, I do actually have five children, just that the eldest 2 are adults and working. I did Home Ed the eldest, Alex, for a year or so when he was 7, although my daughter, Claire, loved school, so was never Home Edded. She went to Home Ed activities with Alex and me when she was a toddler, and has often come with me to help with Robert and Henry, so, paradoxically has probably been to more Home Ed stuff than my Home Edded children. :D
Martin Gardner wrote:
Charlie Reams wrote:No doubt there are circumstances where it's beneficial, but I can't imagine how greatly impoverished my life would have been if I'd been home educated.
Anyone see that documentary out Britain's smartest kids about 6 months ago? I'm not referring to the most recent one in February this year which was a bit shit.

Some of them were home educated, and what it means is that while they may have an education that's more tailored to their individual needs, they miss out on a lot of important stuff. Obviously the fact that we all need to work with other people, have communication skills, learn to put others first. Kids need as much contact with other kids as they can reasonably get.

Julie, I think we've either discussed this on the forum or on MSN, so I know there are circumstances in your case. I'm not having a go at you - nor am I saying it's always a bad idea. If you have exceptionally bright or slower kids, they can really benefit from it, but I think as a parent you have to make sure that they make friends and have same-age contact outside of school.

IMO.
Philip was bullied (by pupils and staff) and hated school. Robert and Henry do indeed have certain special needs. Although Henry is rapidly overcoming his speech difficulties and is not now officially SEN, Robert's autism and severe learning diffculties will affect him for the rest of his life, barring any miracles.
An individually tailored (Taylored? LOL) education really is the best thing for them. They've flourished (in their own way) since leaving school over 4 years ago.

Home Edders always get a bit sniffy when anyone trots out the 'how can they possibly socialise or learn to work as a team?' stuff. But really, how natural is it, to be closeted in a classroom with 30 other kids exactly the same age for 6+ hours a day?
Most areas have loads of fellow Home Edders, and we're always going out to activities, both regular and one-off stuff. My kids play, get along with, and work alongside, children with a wide range of ages and abilities, which is a damn sight more like the adult world than school is.

Yes, Home Edders do have to make sure their children meet other kids, and not just rely on school to do it for them. But there are so many activities on my local Home Ed forum, we couldn't possibly do them all, or they wouldn't get any book work done. My kids love it. :D
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Julie T wrote:But really, how natural is it, to be closeted in a classroom with 30 other kids exactly the same age for 6+ hours a day?
About as natural as flushing toilets. Do your kids get to use them?
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Charlie Reams wrote:
Julie T wrote:But really, how natural is it, to be closeted in a classroom with 30 other kids exactly the same age for 6+ hours a day?
About as natural as flushing toilets. Do your kids get to use them?
Change isn't always for the better, Charlie.
Indoor flush toilets are hard to beat for efficiency and cleanliness, although I have heard of eco toilets which recycle the waste. Each to their own, but not really my cup of tea. Showering more often than bathing, sharing bath water, and using washable sanitary protection, is as green as I care to go in toileting habits.

Years ago, my then GP used a similar spurious argument when I asked him to support the home delivery of my fourth child. He said no, and that doctors don't take out appendixes on your kitchen table anymore, either.
Ridiculous, since, of course a hospital is the safest place for an operation, but, for a straightforward delivery, home is perfectly safe and much more pleasant environment. I changed doctors to one who would support me.

Schools came about, since teaching 30 kids at once is a cost-effective way for governments to instil the skills they want the general population to have, and is useful childcare for the parents, but is not always the best way to educate an individual child at a particular stage in their development.

I'm not saying that Home Edders are necessarily better, more caring, parents than those who pack their kids off to school. Home Edders who would never contemplate sending their children to school are relatively rare. It's simply often the best thing for our children at the time.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

Post by Charlie Reams »

I don't disagree with your conclusion but the assumption that "natural = good, unnatural = bad" is just wrong.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Julie T wrote:Indoor flush toilets are hard to beat for efficiency and cleanliness, although I have heard of eco toilets which recycle the waste. Each to their own, but not really my cup of tea. Showering more often than bathing, sharing bath water, and using washable sanitary protection, is as green as I care to go in toileting habits.
I'm with you - do what I can to be 'green' but nothing that compromises good sanitation. What's your washable sanitary protection? (Let's gross out this male dominated forum. ;) ) I have a Mooncup. Love it! Long term bargain too. 8-)
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Martin Gardner wrote:
Charlie Reams wrote:No doubt there are circumstances where it's beneficial, but I can't imagine how greatly impoverished my life would have been if I'd been home educated.
Anyone see that documentary out Britain's smartest kids about 6 months ago? I'm not referring to the most recent one in February this year which was a bit shit.

Some of them were home educated, and what it means is that while they may have an education that's more tailored to their individual needs, they miss out on a lot of important stuff. Obviously the fact that we all need to work with other people, have communication skills, learn to put others first. Kids need as much contact with other kids as they can reasonably get.

Julie, I think we've either discussed this on the forum or on MSN, so I know there are circumstances in your case. I'm not having a go at you - nor am I saying it's always a bad idea. If you have exceptionally bright or slower kids, they can really benefit from it, but I think as a parent you have to make sure that they make friends and have same-age contact outside of school.

IMO.
I was a really early developer; I could read when I was 4, and was way ahead of everyone else my own age until my early teens when everyone else caught up with me. If I had been home educated, I probably would have done better academically, but what I learned from the kids was so much more valuable than anything I ever learned from a teacher.
I was bullied horribly in infants school, and I'm actually grateful to the kids that bullied me. Without them telling me why no one liked me, then I would still be the girl whose only friends were the smelly boy and the girl who ate tissues.

So basically, even with really bright kids, I think the benefits of going to school outweigh the costs.

I definately wouldn't say the same for kids with learning disabilites though; my boyfriend's mum teaches a year 4 class with one girl with downs syndrome, whose parents insist that it's best for her to be in school with normal kids her own age, even though she gains absolutely nothing from being taught that way and the closest thing she has to friends are the kids who have given up trying to stop her from following them around.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Lesley Jeavons wrote:
Julie T wrote:Indoor flush toilets are hard to beat for efficiency and cleanliness, although I have heard of eco toilets which recycle the waste. Each to their own, but not really my cup of tea. Showering more often than bathing, sharing bath water, and using washable sanitary protection, is as green as I care to go in toileting habits.
I'm with you - do what I can to be 'green' but nothing that compromises good sanitation. What's your washable sanitary protection? (Let's gross out this male dominated forum. ;) ) I have a Mooncup. Love it! Long term bargain too. 8-)
Yes, I have a Mooncup, and also some Wemoon pads.
My daughter uses Wemoon pads too. Different pattern to mine, though - mixing them up would be gross!

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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Roxanne wrote:
I was a really early developer; I could read when I was 4, and was way ahead of everyone else my own age until my early teens when everyone else caught up with me. If I had been home educated, I probably would have done better academically, but what I learned from the kids was so much more valuable than anything I ever learned from a teacher.
I was bullied horribly in infants school, and I'm actually grateful to the kids that bullied me. Without them telling me why no one liked me, then I would still be the girl whose only friends were the smelly boy and the girl who ate tissues.

So basically, even with really bright kids, I think the benefits of going to school outweigh the costs.

I definately wouldn't say the same for kids with learning disabilites though; my boyfriend's mum teaches a year 4 class with one girl with downs syndrome, whose parents insist that it's best for her to be in school with normal kids her own age, even though she gains absolutely nothing from being taught that way and the closest thing she has to friends are the kids who have given up trying to stop her from following them around.
Heck! Grateful to bullies. Difficult to know where to start on that one.
I suppose the main point IMHO is that, even if you feel it was a positive experience, encouraging bullying causes emotional and physical pain to lots of kids, even to the extent of suicide.
And not exactly good for the mental health of the bully either.
And why should you have learnt to conform to what others expected of you? Why shouldn't you have been encouraged to find friends who accepted you for who you were?

Robert went to a special school, up till just over 4 years ago. It is difficult, even in that environment to teach children with many varied learning difficulties. Educating SEN kids in mainstream schools can work if there's enough support, but I agree that it's not always ideal. It can be difficult for some parents to accept that their children can't cope with, or aren't gaining from, an experience.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Julie T wrote:Heck! Grateful to bullies. Difficult to know where to start on that one.
I suppose the main point IMHO is that, even if you feel it was a positive experience, encouraging bullying causes emotional and physical pain to lots of kids, even to the extent of suicide.
And not exactly good for the mental health of the bully either.
And why should you have learnt to conform to what others expected of you? Why shouldn't you have been encouraged to find friends who accepted you for who you were?
Unfortunately Julie, thats just the way it is (things will never be the same, awwwwww yeah)

There are always going to be people in life who try to shit on you. No matter what age or walk of life. Surely its best to be subjected to it as a kid and adapt, rather than not be able to cope with it in the adult world. The moral "Just be yourself" is probably not the best approach in a lot of social situations, right or wrong as it may be.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Dinos Sfyris wrote:The moral "Just be yourself" is probably not the best approach in a lot of social situations, right or wrong as it may be.
Yep. Adopting that attitude allows you to stomp around going "hey I'm like totally free-thinking me" while having a totally shit life because you can't interact with other people. Human relationships are about give-and-take and by insisting on always "being yourself", you basically refuse to participate in half of that contract. I know because it took me longer than most people to work this out. The only adult I know who really lives by that moral works as a gardener, because despite his intellect no one can bear to work with him.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

Post by Julie T »

So do Dinos and Charlie think that teenagers who commit suicide because of bullying are simply collateral damage?

And bullied children, who get taken out of the situation, often get along fine with a different, less vile, group of children.
Henry, who often used to cry at school, now has loads of friends, some Home Ed, some schooled.
He's very far from a freaky loner.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Julie T wrote:So do Dinos and Charlie think that teenagers who commit suicide because of bullying are simply collateral damage?

And bullied children, who get taken out of the situation, often get along fine with a different, less vile, group of children.
Henry, who often used to cry at school, now has loads of friends, some Home Ed, some schooled.
He's very far from a freaky loner.
Surely neither of them said that. I can relate because I was bullied pretty heavily in school and also ended up being taken out of school. It sort of taught me to be tough and from being an incredibly shy child I became a really outgoing teenager and when we moved house I changed school and basically between the ages of 10 and 19 had a non-stop laugh for 10 years. It's really no contradiction to say that something that's initially negative can have positive consequences later on. I don't think Dinos was taking it lightly, i just think his argument definitely works, and Charlie didn't even mention it, did he?
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Julie T wrote:So do Dinos and Charlie think that teenagers who commit suicide because of bullying are simply collateral damage?
Delete "simply", I think. There will always be some who can't cope with their environment and there will always be some who are so insecure they can only interact by bullying. Teachers should do more to prevent bullying from escalating, but there is very little they can do now that any attempt at discipline is likely to be termed "abuse" or "assault".

I was bullied in infants' school, but the only episode I really remember was being slapped by a teacher the one time I plucked up the courage to kick my tormentor. If only bullies got the same treatment today!
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Martin Gardner wrote:between the ages of 10 and 19 had a non-stop laugh for 10 years

:shock: I thought you had given up with the jokes.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Julie T wrote:So do Dinos and Charlie think that teenagers who commit suicide because of bullying are simply collateral damage?
Not what I said at all. Suicide is a very serious subject. I certainly don't condone bullying but it's a fact of life. I think its great that there's helplines etc for people traumatised by bullying but you can't just shield a child from it and pretend everything will be ok. They have to know how to deal with it themselves. I'm living proof. After a very sheltered existence at a private primary school I was very much myself but once I got to comp I was very miserable. I'd be constantly tormented by bullies which I'd had little experience with before, because of my hair, the way I spoke, the way I acted. I didn't know how to adapt and just hoped it would eventually stop. Everyday they'd hurl abuse at me or worse, and I was scared and had no idea what to do. It probably didn't help either that I was an only child with no strong male role model. I only wish as a child I'd been more self-aware and that instead of being coddled and told not to retaliate when I was upset, someone had just told me "If someone does that to you again, kick them in the balls." Thats the kind of advice kids need. Show a bully you won't take it and they'll back off.

Sheesh that was a long and serious post for me.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Yeah I'd say that bullying is THE single must underestimated problem in this country. Rather than spending billions on wars in other countries, why not use that money to tackle bullyin in schools? It's pretty easy to see how many people it affects - just read this thread from top to bottom.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Kai Laddiman wrote:
Martin Gardner wrote:between the ages of 10 and 19 had a non-stop laugh for 10 years

:shock: I thought you had given up with the jokes.
I was counting inclusively!
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Julie T wrote:So do Dinos and Charlie think that teenagers who commit suicide because of bullying are simply collateral damage?
That's such a poor argument. It's like saying "JulieT drives a car, so does she think that people who get run over are simply collateral damage?" Whatever course of action you take, bad things will happen to someone. You have to weigh up the numbers.

How many teenagers commit suicide because of bullying? It must be a minuscule number because they still get reported on the news. How many home-educated kids end up socially ill-adjusted and unemployable because they were poorly taught and lacked social exposure? Probably most. Honestly I've met a fair number of people who were home educated and every single one of them was just a little bit odd and clearly had trouble interacting with anyone outside their own family. These are not intrinsic problems with home education, because it's certainly possible to overcome them and maybe in your particular case you have done (I have no idea), but that's certainly not typical.

Like anyone who's a bit unusual, I got bullied plenty in primary school. My crimes were being smart and having a ridiculous haircut. Eventually I changed schools, got a new haircut and learnt a certain amount of modesty rather than wanting to show off all the time. Then I got on fine. If I'd insisted on "being myself", I would've gone around being a smart-arse my whole life. Like I do on here, and look how popular that makes me.
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I managed to avoid being bullied at school, despite being fat, having (really) thick glasses, and being clever.

I can only presume that even bullies have some standards.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Michael Wallace wrote:I managed to avoid being bullied at school, despite being fat, having (really) thick glasses, and being clever.
You were fat in school? I find that really hard to visualise.
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Julie T wrote: And why should you have learnt to conform to what others expected of you? Why shouldn't you have been encouraged to find friends who accepted you for who you were?
because who I was, was a completely tactless, insensitive, selfish, self-centred, greedy, intolerant, boastful, bitchy, snobbish, smarmy, smartarse teacher's pet who lashed out at people and threw epic tantrums whenever I didn't get my way. I don't think it's any great tradgedy that I conformed to society's expectations of trying to be a nicer person.
Being a horrible brat, the closest thing I got to friends who accepted me were the slow kids who let me sit with them, because in between telling them how thick they were and how much cleverer and more fantastic I was, I'd get frustrated with them asking me for help and do their work for them. Now that I've learned to treat people with some decency, I have friends who like me for the person that I changed myself to become.

The whole "just be yourself" thing only works if you're a likeable person in the first place.
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Charlie Reams wrote:
Michael Wallace wrote:I managed to avoid being bullied at school, despite being fat, having (really) thick glasses, and being clever.
You were fat in school? I find that really hard to visualise.
I found that a cure for being bullied was a punch on the nose. I also found that when you get hit, it doesn't hurt till long afterwards.
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Charlie Reams wrote:
Michael Wallace wrote:I managed to avoid being bullied at school, despite being fat, having (really) thick glasses, and being clever.
You were fat in school? I find that really hard to visualise.
This might help.
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

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Michael Wallace wrote:This might help.
Whats that in your paws raccoon boy?
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Re: Home Educators Eat Babies!

Post by Jimmy Gough »

Michael Wallace wrote: This might help.
That certainly is one unhappy raccoon.
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