Ghosts?

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George Jenkins
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Ghosts?

Post by George Jenkins »

I refer to Phil's statement that the belief in the existence of ghosts is claptrap. I absolutely agree with Phil, but can anybody give me an explanation for the experience I had, of the apparently Paranormal.

First; A Victorian mansion in Chislehurst, in Lubbock road, built on top of the hill, and overlooking a valley. Tall trees with hanging branches at the front of the house, and in the dark looking like a ghostly scene in an old black and white film. So you can see; a perfect setting for a Ghost story.

It was a Council requisitioned house, used to accommodate families on the housing waiting list.
On some of my late shifts, I would walk home from Hither Green (two and a half hours walk along the rail track), climb over the fence at Elmstead woods station and walk up Lubbock road, trying to keep my imagination under control, especially when the moon was up, shining through those hanging branches. (Well! I was young then, and not old and cynical like I am now)

I would open the huge front door which creaked as usual as in all Ghost stories, and walk across the huge hall. I would feel my way to the stairs ( there were no lights, because the families on each floor had to pay the electric bill for that floor).and walk up the winding stairs to the second floor where we lived. Every step up caused ticking and rattling noises, especially the banisters which were coming apart, and filled with woodworm.

I really loved that old house, but it wouldn't let us sleep. I woke up one night with something pressing on my face, then Olive, next to me woke up brushing her face, then our little daughter woke up and started to cry. I switched the light on but there was nothing to see in the room.
This happened so often that I got used to it. I came home one night and Olive was sitting up in bed with the light on, holding our daughter. She was in a bad state and said that "it" wouldn't let her sleep.

Then the couple living on the top floor, Mr and Mrs Trump, in the old servants quarters, told us that they were emigrating to Australia, and I told them that I would apply to the Housing Manager, to move upstairs in their place. I had a good excuse, because a second family lived on our floor, and I was often woken up by noise on the landing when I was night work.

They implored me not to move up there but they wouldn't say why. they just kept saying that I wouldn't like it up there. So we moved up to the top floor and everything was just the same.
I remember one night when I woke up and there was a green glow all over the room, I remember wondering if I was dreaming so I slapped my own face and it hurt. It was then that I found that my hair was sticking straight up. So I talked to whatever it was. I said "why don't you sod off" and went back to sleep.

So! dear reader, You are very sceptical about all this. After all, you are very sensible and down to earth. You wouldn't be taken in by my story which I write just for your amusement, would you?
So; let us talk about Kathleen Groeger, whom moved into our old flat on the second floor.

We are in the garden chatting, and Kathleen, whom by the way, was an old school friend of Olive's didn't seem very friendly. Suddenly she shouted at me "I know why you moved out of that Fucking flat, there's a Fucking Ghost in there, and the Fucking bastard thing won't let us sleep" and then she burst into tears.I tried to tell her that it was the same all over the house, but poor Kathleen wouldn't believe me. That scene in the garden is still crystal clear in my mind, and looking back now, I realise that Olive suffered the most in those times. I was often at work at night, whereas the other families had their men with them
There are of course, many examples that I could relate to you, but it is only more of the same. I have told you how it was, including Kathleen's swearing.



The Main railway line to Dover ran along that valley, and late in the evenings, Olive would stand at the window with the light on, waving to me. I would wave a lamp and toot the whistle. I never thought of what it must have been like for her as I Puffed away into the distance and left her on her own in the house


After two and a half years, we were all moved to new council houses, the old mansion was pulled down, and blocks of Maisonettes were built. Often, when I looked up at them from the railway, I wondered, is "it" still there.

I am able to tell you the name of Kathleen, because she and her family are all dead.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Allan Harmer »

Interesting story George. It must have have been very spooky.

I have not experienced anything like that, just a few instances of 'deja vu' but I would certainly not dismiss it out of hand.

Perhaps we should send Kirk along to spend a night or two there ;)
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Charlie Reams »

Electromagnetic effects. Air pressure. Something odd in the air. Power of suggestion. All of these are much more likely than ghosts. The last one would be my preferred guess. Why is it that all ghost stories include elements like "I woke up and then..." or are set against spooky backgrounds. The brain is a powerful thing.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Jimmy Gough »

Remember, Charlie is always right.
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George Jenkins
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by George Jenkins »

Charlie Reams wrote:Electromagnetic effects. Air pressure. Something odd in the air. Power of suggestion. All of these are much more likely than ghosts. The last one would be my preferred guess. Why is it that all ghost stories include elements like "I woke up and then..." or are set against spooky backgrounds. The brain is a powerful thing.
Interesting and sound arguments from you Charlie, but I did say that I don't believe in Ghosts. Not the kind whom walk around with their heads underneath their arms anyway. But because of our experience in that house I have an open mind as to whether there might be another dimension that we cannot always see, and I can't believe that down to earth old me can think of something like that.

However; I did ask for possible explanations, but it doesn't explain why Kathleen Groeger suddenly broke down in hysterics in the garden accusing me of moving upstairs where she should have been living, and causing her to live with this thing that would not let them sleep. Of course Charlie, you can bet your life that we didn't tell her of our experience in that flat, she found out for herself.

As to your comment about spooky buildings, you are right to say that imagination is a powerful influence, but I loved that old house and I was never afraid. Even when I walked down that spiral staircase, in pitch dark, in the middle of the night to to go to work. Also, it doesn't need to be a spooky house to experience this sort of thing. I have read of families that have to move out of Council houses for the same reasons.

Anyway; It was a very happy day when we moved out and into our brand new Council house, and I can appreciate that people will have their different opinions, but nobody will be able to convince my Wife Olive, that "Selwyns" wasn't haunted.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Jon Corby »

I would imagine that the house was built on an old disused gold mine, or that it was a prime location for use as part of some kind of smuggling ring, and that somebody was deliberately scaring you off. And it sounds like they got away with it, due to the absence of meddling kids.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Phil Reynolds »

Jimmy Gough wrote:Remember, Charlie is always right.
Even someone who believes that the spirits of the departed habitually float round old houses at night moaning would have to agree with Charlie's post, which simply pointed out the fact that, given two possible explanations for strange phenomena, the more mundane one is more likely to be true. So, er, what exactly was the point of your post?
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by George Jenkins »

Jon Corby wrote:I would imagine that the house was built on an old disused gold mine, or that it was a prime location for use as part of some kind of smuggling ring, and that somebody was deliberately scaring you off. And it sounds like they got away with it, due to the absence of meddling kids.
Brilliant solution Jon, if I'd thought of a gold mine under the house, I'd have had the floorboards up and started digging .
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Jon Corby »

George Jenkins wrote:Brilliant solution Jon, if I'd thought of a gold mine under the house, I'd have had the floorboards up and started digging .
Did the house get demolished shortly after you left, to make way for a theme park or apartment complex or something? That's another common one, mercenary developers scaring off the locals so their development proposals don't face opposition. I've seen documentaries about this sort of thing.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by George Jenkins »

Phil Reynolds wrote:
Jimmy Gough wrote:Remember, Charlie is always right.
Even someone who believes that the spirits of the departed habitually float round old houses at night moaning would have to agree with Charlie's post, which simply pointed out the fact that, given two possible explanations for strange phenomena, the more mundane one is more likely to be true. So, er, what exactly was the point of your post?
Phil, the point of my post was about your assertion, that belief of the existence and stories of Ghosts were claptrap, and I confess that I pounced on that remark, mainly for an excuse to tell of our experience in that old house, and perhaps provoke some answers. Let me point out to you that you will not find a more disbelieving, cynical and bible hating person than me, and as for Ghosts? do me a favour. (See that? I can even talk like you young blokes).

Charlie gave excellent and logical opinions about the atmosphere and so-called events that we experienced in that lovely old house, and I have only one answer for Charlie, you weren't there. Assuming that Charlie is correct about me and Olive, and it was on;y imagination on our part, how can we explain the behaviour of Mr and Mrs Trump, whom were adamant in their efforts to turn us off from the idea of moving upstairs to their flat. Also; Kathleen Groeger, hysterical in the garden, talking about Ghosts that won't let them sleep.

I must say again that I was never afraid in that house, and if there was a "presence" in there, it never hurt us, I was more interested than frightened, otherwise I could never have walked down those three flights of a spiral staircase in pitch dark in the middle of the night, on my way to work. I think my story in these pages is neither proved or disproved, but me and Olive have got our memories, and they can't be disproved by anyone.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by George Jenkins »

Jon Corby wrote:
George Jenkins wrote:Brilliant solution Jon, if I'd thought of a gold mine under the house, I'd have had the floorboards up and started digging .
Did the house get demolished shortly after you left, to make way for a theme park or apartment complex or something? That's another common one, mercenary developers scaring off the locals so their development proposals don't face opposition. I've seen documentaries about this sort of thing.
Jon, A lot of empty houses were requisitioned in the war by Government law, and "Selwyns" was used for troops and ATS women. When the requisition law was rescinded, the Councils had to give the property back to the Owners, Selwyns was demolished and replaced with maisonettes. This was why we were allocated a new Council house.

I like your theory about mercinary developers scaring us off, but it would need another Alfred Hichcock produce the effects that we experienced in that house. At the time, a record of a song sung by Rosemary Clooney was top of the pops, called This old house. I liked to play that nice and loud to get my own back on whatever was in the house.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Charlie Reams »

Phil Reynolds wrote:
Jimmy Gough wrote:Remember, Charlie is always right.
Even someone who believes that the spirits of the departed habitually float round old houses at night moaning would have to agree with Charlie's post, which simply pointed out the fact that, given two possible explanations for strange phenomena, the more mundane one is more likely to be true. So, er, what exactly was the point of your post?
If only there were some kind of name for this razor-sharp principle...

Anyway I think Jimmy was just being amusing, since he generally does think I'm right about everything.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Jimmy Gough »

Phil Reynolds wrote:
Jimmy Gough wrote:Remember, Charlie is always right.
So, er, what exactly was the point of your post?
Some may ask what the point in your website is: pages and pages about your dazzling television appearances when nobody really gives a shit. Not me. I think it's amazing.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Gavin Chipper »

I've often considered doing some haunting myself. Pick on someone you dont like and record some funny noises and play them outside their house at night and do funny things with lights as well.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Jason Larsen »

I think hearing unknown sounds causes ghosts!
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by George Jenkins »

Jimmy Gough wrote:
Phil Reynolds wrote:
Jimmy Gough wrote:Remember, Charlie is always right.
So, er, what exactly was the point of your post?
Some may ask what the point in your website is: pages and pages about your dazzling television appearances when nobody really gives a shit. Not me. I think it's amazing.
May I say how delighted I am with the opinions created in respect of my post. I am not in the least offended by those opinions, and indeed, I expected them. I was like you lads once, and I was about your age at the time of my experience in that house. what about the time when Kathleen and her husband were up in our flat chatting, and something in the corner was rising. It had no form, and it just faded away and at the same time kathleen's son was screaming in the bedroom below. Kathleen rushed downstairs, and all she could get out of her five year old son was "it went up the wall". All of us suffering from imagination?, including young Tony? Yeah! right.

Olive reminded me about that evening, so I thought that I might as well mention it.
When I think back to those days I can hardly believe it myself, so I forgive you blokes for assuming that the men in long white coats will soon be calling for me, but I still love you all.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Ian Volante »

George Jenkins wrote:
Jimmy Gough wrote:
Phil Reynolds wrote: So, er, what exactly was the point of your post?
Some may ask what the point in your website is: pages and pages about your dazzling television appearances when nobody really gives a shit. Not me. I think it's amazing.
May I say how delighted I am with the opinions created in respect of my post. I am not in the least offended by those opinions, and indeed, I expected them. I was like you lads once, and I was about your age at the time of my experience in that house. what about the time when Kathleen and her husband were up in our flat chatting, and something in the corner was rising. It had no form, and it just faded away and at the same time kathleen's son was screaming in the bedroom below. Kathleen rushed downstairs, and all she could get out of her five year old son was "it went up the wall". All of us suffering from imagination?, including young Tony? Yeah! right.

Olive reminded me about that evening, so I thought that I might as well mention it.
When I think back to those days I can hardly believe it myself, so I forgive you blokes for assuming that the men in long white coats will soon be calling for me, but I still love you all.
I'm with you on this. It's clearly bollocks, yet there's a constant thread of inexplicable happenings to keep it intriguing.
meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles meles
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Charlie Reams »

George Jenkins wrote:All of us suffering from imagination?, including young Tony? Yeah! right.
Oh, because 5 year olds are well known for being immune to the imagination.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by George Jenkins »

Charlie Reams wrote:
George Jenkins wrote:All of us suffering from imagination?, including young Tony? Yeah! right.
Oh, because 5 year olds are well known for being immune to the imagination.
I don't think it was a co-incidence that young Tony screamed at the same time that four of us noticed something funny and difficult to describe in the corner or the room Charlie. I love Jon's picturesque discription of my History of our time in that house, but I would not insult your intelligence with a lot fiction. I tell it how it was. We can smile about it now, but at the time it was serious for the families involved, and I can tell you that the women were in a right state. I agree that it could have been caused by any of the reasons mentioned in this thread, but mass hysteria was never heard of, in the company that I moved in. I thank you all for your interest and your comments which caused me to smile a lot.
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Re: Ghosts?

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George Jenkins wrote: I don't think it was a co-incidence that young Tony screamed at the same time that four of us noticed something funny and difficult to describe in the corner or the room Charlie. I love Jon's picturesque discription of my History of our time in that house, but I would not insult your intelligence with a lot fiction. I tell it how it was. We can smile about it now, but at the time it was serious for the families involved, and I can tell you that the women were in a right state. I agree that it could have been caused by any of the reasons mentioned in this thread, but mass hysteria was never heard of, in the company that I moved in. I thank you all for your interest and your comments which caused me to smile a lot.
I didn't say it was a coincidence. Maybe there was some loud noise or bright light through the window that startled you all at the same time, and in your various stages of sleep you were all confused in vaguely the same way. Maybe something mundane woke up "young Tony" and it was his squawking that roused everyone else. How many times does a young child wake up scared and not share the same vision of terror as everyone else? Pretty much all the time. So it's not that surprising that occasionally you'll find two or three people who were awoken around the same time by roughly the same dream/hallucination/whatever you want to call it. It's exciting to believe in the possibility that we might be living so close to some shadow world, but we shouldn't allow ourselves to selectively forget all the times when nothing at all remarkable happens.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Lesley Jeavons »

I do believe in ghosts, from personal experience.

When I was thirteen I was at my friend Rose's Birthday party and saw a ghost, but only found out she was a ghost afterwards.

Rose had loads of family at the party that I hadn't met before, and days later we were at my house talking about the party and what I thought of her Aunties etc. I asked her something about the quiet one in the pink jumper with the blonde curly hair who was sat on the arm of the sofa. Rose asked what and who I was talking about, and described her few Aunties, none who met the description. I thought she was winding me up and we went on arguing about it for ages. Eventually Rose said to me to 'phone her Mum if I didn't believe her. So I did, and went through the same argument with Rose's Mum saying that there was no Aunt in a pink jumper. And at school we asked our mates who'd been there, and none of them had seen her, except me.

Over a decade later at Rose's wedding I spoke to her Mum about it and she admitted that she had seen the woman several times but didn't want to tell me at the time in case it would frighten me.


And another story. When my husband was doing his Photography degree he was doing a project on childhood memories. He wrote to the people who lived in his favourite childhood home asking if he could visit to take some pictures to use alongside old ones. They agreed and also said it was ok for his Mum and I to go too. Corin's family have loads of ghost stories from living in this house, so Corin's Mum asked the owners if they had any. They did. They realed off lots of stories and discriptions of similar events and people to the ones Corin's family have always talked about.


I can't think of any alternative explanation for either of the above other than ghosts existing, but I'd be interested to hear any thoughts.
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Re: Ghosts?

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Charlie Reams wrote:
George Jenkins wrote: I don't think it was a co-incidence that young Tony screamed at the same time that four of us noticed something funny and difficult to describe in the corner or the room Charlie. I love Jon's picturesque description of my History of our time in that house, but I would not insult your intelligence with a lot fiction. I tell it how it was. We can smile about it now, but at the time it was serious for the families involved, and I can tell you that the women were in a right state. I agree that it could have been caused by any of the reasons mentioned in this thread, but mass hysteria was never heard of, in the company that I moved in. I thank you all for your interest and your comments which caused me to smile a lot.
I didn't say it was a coincidence. Maybe there was some loud noise or bright light through the window that startled you all at the same time, and in your various stages of sleep you were all confused in vaguely the same way. Maybe something mundane woke up "young Tony" and it was his squawking that roused everyone else. How many times does a young child wake up scared and not share the same vision of terror as everyone else? Pretty much all the time. So it's not that surprising that occasionally you'll find two or three people who were awoken around the same time by roughly the same dream/hallucination/whatever you want to call it. It's exciting to believe in the possibility that we might be living so close to some shadow world, but we shouldn't allow ourselves to selectively forget all the times when nothing at all remarkable happens.
First of all, I must apologise to Ian, whom was the real Author of that picturesque description of my history. It was something like "clearly bollocks" which I thought was hilarious. If I die laughing Ian, I'm coming back to haunt you.

Charlie! you are making this far too complicated. You are talking about rational common sense, but common sense is absent, when Olive says to me, "there's somebody outside in the passage", and when I looked there is a shadow under the door and it is moving. I quickly opened the door and there is nothing there and the shadow has disappeared. There are no huge moths round the light bulb, or anything flying at all, so where is the "common sense" when I think of "nothing" that can cast a shadow. Olive told me to mention that, and I asure you that she has a wonderful memory.
Also; you are right when you say; what about the nights when nothing happen? Well; I don't know why, but most of my work was on night freight trains, and my worst moments were coming home in the middle of the night, and finding Olive sitting up in bed with the baby, all the lights are on in the flat, and she is trying, I repeat trying to tell me that "it won't let her sleep". I feel bad because I'm not there to comfort her, and I asure you Charlie, that common sense means nothing in those situations.
I'm also sorry that I can't convey the atmosphere and the anger when Kathleen Groeger is shouting at me because of the "ghosts" in her flat where I should still be living. I must tell you that Kathleen was no shrinking Violet, she was a very tough lady indeed. I suppose that I shouldn't refer to her as a lady, considering her language
So there you are; three families all effected by the same manifestations, and we were all glad to leave. One more little detail that I forgot to mention. "Selwyns" was built next to a church, complete with gravestones. So that's another piece of atmosphere I can add.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Peter Mabey »

I don't think ghosts are spirits of the departed, but there seem to be too many experiences on record to dismiss out of hand - I'm inclined to go for the 'Stone Tape' theory. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stone_Tape )
When I was living in Cheltenham, one of my friends' home was next door to the Spiritualist Church, and they would tell me of frequent 'ghostly' events, though nothing was ever seen. However, after a fairly riotous party one weekend (there were no other neighbours to complain :) ), such ceased to occur - presumably the stray records from the church had been erased or overwritten. :?:
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by David Roe »

I don't believe in ghosts, but...

When my niece was just about 2, her great-grandma died. Rose was too young to know this. A couple of days before the funeral, Rose said "What's grandma doing in the garden"? The others told her not to be silly, but asked which grandma; Rose said "Grandma Sally". To which her older sister said "Don't be silly, she's dead." Five minutes later, they asked Rose again where Grandma was, and she said in a surprised tone of voice "She's gone."

I'm sure Rose wasn't old enough to deliberately make it up. She didn't know her Grandma was dead. Imagination, or what?
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Charlie Reams »

David Roe wrote:Imagination, or what?
Yep. Seriously, when a kid says they can see a unicorn in the garden, no one goes "OMG unicorns are real!" Why would granmas be any different?
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Jon O'Neill »

Charlie Reams wrote:
David Roe wrote:Imagination, or what?
Yep. Seriously, when a kid says they can see a unicorn in the garden, no one goes "OMG unicorns are real!" Why would granmas be any different?
This isn't restricted to kids. The power of imagination and false-memory is quite extraordinary, especially amongst the recently-bereaved.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Charlie Reams »

Jon O'Neill wrote:
Charlie Reams wrote:
David Roe wrote:Imagination, or what?
Yep. Seriously, when a kid says they can see a unicorn in the garden, no one goes "OMG unicorns are real!" Why would granmas be any different?
This isn't restricted to kids. The power of imagination and false-memory is quite extraordinary, especially amongst the recently-bereaved.
Indeed. I read a theory that we probably see these kind of apparitions frequently, it's just that they don't seem remarkable until they become impossible (e.g. because the person is dead.) Also it seems plausible that the stress of dealing with bereavement might increase the frequency, although in this case that wouldn't seem to apply.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Kirk Bevins »

See how amazing this chat is. I wanna experience loads of stuff for myself, which is why I listed one of my hobbies as the paranormal.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Gary Male »

Kirk Bevins wrote:See how amazing this chat is. I wanna experience loads of stuff for myself, which is why I listed one of my hobbies as the paranormal.
Try getting legendarily drunk, then have friends randomly open windows, flick lights on and off, throw cats at dustbins. That'll work.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by George Jenkins »

Gary Male wrote:
Kirk Bevins wrote:See how amazing this chat is. I wanna experience loads of stuff for myself, which is why I listed one of my hobbies as the paranormal.
Try getting legendarily drunk, then have friends randomly open windows, flick lights on and off, throw cats at dustbins. That'll work.
I was alright reading this post till I got to throwing cats at dustbins. I hope that I didn't wake them up door, I'm in my bedroom with the computer and my bedroom adjoins theirs. It's ten past one in the morning and I can't stop laughing.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by George Jenkins »

Peter Mabey wrote:I don't think ghosts are spirits of the departed, but there seem to be too many experiences on record to dismiss out of hand - I'm inclined to go for the 'Stone Tape' theory. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stone_Tape )
When I was living in Cheltenham, one of my friends' home was next door to the Spiritualist Church, and they would tell me of frequent 'ghostly' events, though nothing was ever seen. However, after a fairly riotous party one weekend (there were no other neighbours to complain :) ), such ceased to occur - presumably the stray records from the church had been erased or overwritten. :?:
There are no ghostly replicas of dead humans. If this was so, and we being Animal, all other animals would have ghostly replicas. Imagine opening the front door and trying to get past ghostly tyrannosauruses trampling hundreds of ghostly rattlesnakes etc.

However; my mind is open to the fact that there might exist another dimention, and you never know, it might be proved in the future. Don't forget that it was once thought that the Earth was flat, and I believe that it was Gallileo whom was threatened with a very painful death by the Pope, If he refused to retract his statement that the Earth was round and went round the sun.
That held up the advance of scientific knowledge for hundreds of years.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Charlie Reams »

George Jenkins wrote:Don't forget that it was once thought that the Earth was flat, and I believe that it was Gallileo whom was threatened with a very painful death by the Pope, If he refused to retract his statement that the Earth was round and went round the sun.
That held up the advance of scientific knowledge for hundreds of years.
The difference is, Gallileo had evidence that he hadn't gathered while half-asleep.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Kirk Bevins »

George Jenkins wrote: There are no ghostly replicas of dead humans. If this was so, and we being Animal, all other animals would have ghostly replicas.
What nonsense logic. We are also living things so your argument would be "If this was so, and we being living things, all plants would have ghostly replicas."

I read somewhere that it's only supposed to be dogs, cats and humans that have ghosts. Some theories say it's related to the home (stone tape theory is linked with this) and some say it's because these animals are exposed to humans so much so have consciences (i.e. if they do something wrong their owner may slap them or punish them and so they know what's 'right' and 'wrong'). Some people say it's this (the soul) that is the ghost.
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Re: Ghosts?

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Kirk Bevins wrote:I read somewhere that it's only supposed to be dogs, cats and humans that have ghosts. Some theories say it's related to the home (stone tape theory is linked with this) and some say it's because these animals are exposed to humans so much so have consciences (i.e. if they do something wrong their owner may slap them or punish them and so they know what's 'right' and 'wrong'). Some people say it's this (the soul) that is the ghost.
Lol, and you have the gall to call someone else's logic nonsense (why would it be any more ludicrous to suggest plants should have ghosts if people do anyway?)

I know you haven't outwardly endorsed any of those theories in this particular post, but you do believe in all this shite. I genuinely don't know how you can reconcile your anti-theistic beliefs with your pro-supernatural ones.
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Re: Ghosts?

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Jon Corby wrote:
Kirk Bevins wrote:I read somewhere that it's only supposed to be dogs, cats and humans that have ghosts. Some theories say it's related to the home (stone tape theory is linked with this) and some say it's because these animals are exposed to humans so much so have consciences (i.e. if they do something wrong their owner may slap them or punish them and so they know what's 'right' and 'wrong'). Some people say it's this (the soul) that is the ghost.
Lol, and you have the gall to call someone else's logic nonsense (why would it be any more ludicrous to suggest plants should have ghosts if people do anyway?)

I know you haven't outwardly endorsed any of those theories in this particular post, but you do believe in all this shite. I genuinely don't know how you can reconcile your anti-theistic beliefs with your pro-supernatural ones.
Some people are anti-religion for historical reasons, not philosophical ones.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Kirk Bevins »

Jon Corby wrote: I know you haven't outwardly endorsed any of those theories in this particular post, but you do believe in all this shite. I genuinely don't know how you can reconcile your anti-theistic beliefs with your pro-supernatural ones.
I have never claimed to believe in any of it. It interests me though! Also I have never said there is any link between a God and a ghost.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Jon Corby »

Charlie Reams wrote:
Jon Corby wrote:
Kirk Bevins wrote:I read somewhere that it's only supposed to be dogs, cats and humans that have ghosts. Some theories say it's related to the home (stone tape theory is linked with this) and some say it's because these animals are exposed to humans so much so have consciences (i.e. if they do something wrong their owner may slap them or punish them and so they know what's 'right' and 'wrong'). Some people say it's this (the soul) that is the ghost.
Lol, and you have the gall to call someone else's logic nonsense (why would it be any more ludicrous to suggest plants should have ghosts if people do anyway?)

I know you haven't outwardly endorsed any of those theories in this particular post, but you do believe in all this shite. I genuinely don't know how you can reconcile your anti-theistic beliefs with your pro-supernatural ones.
Some people are anti-religion for historical reasons, not philosophical ones.
That's why I didn't say anti-religion.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by George Jenkins »

Charlie Reams wrote:
George Jenkins wrote:Don't forget that it was once thought that the Earth was flat, and I believe that it was Gallileo whom was threatened with a very painful death by the Pope, If he refused to retract his statement that the Earth was round and went round the sun.
That held up the advance of scientific knowledge for hundreds of years.
The difference is, Gallileo had evidence that he hadn't gathered while half-asleep.
Blimey Charlie, couldn't you sleep either? But seriously; if the fact that the earth was round and rotated round the sun was made public, it would have undermined the authority of the Church, and the teaching that god created Earth to be the centre of the Universe.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Charlie Reams »

Jon Corby wrote: That's why I didn't say anti-religion.
Yeah, Kirk made me change my post because he's a twunt, which changed the meaning a bit. My original point was that Kirk is quite happy to believe bullshit as long as it's exciting and new, so that explains the reconciliation.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by George Jenkins »

Charlie Reams wrote:
Jon Corby wrote: That's why I didn't say anti-religion.
Yeah, Kirk made me change my post because he's a twunt, which changed the meaning a bit. My original point was that Kirk is quite happy to believe bullshit as long as it's exciting and new, so that explains the reconciliation.
Bleedin' hell, I can't get a word in edgeways with this lot
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Kirk Bevins »

Charlie Reams wrote:My original point was that Kirk is quite happy to believe bullshit as long as it's exciting and new, so that explains the reconciliation.
You're wrong. I don't believe lots of things, like induction. Oh, that's not new is it...
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Re: Ghosts?

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George Jenkins wrote:Blimey Charlie, couldn't you sleep either? But seriously; if the fact that the earth was round and rotated round the sun was made public, it would have undermined the authority of the Church, and the teaching that god created Earth to be the centre of the Universe.
You're right, but ultimately the truth (ⓒ Richard Brittain) of the solar system came out because even the Catholic church couldn't keep ignoring the evidence forever. The same is not true with ghosts. Of course if ghosts do exist then at some point we'll obtain some incontrovertible and repeatable evidence that they do, and I'll eat my hat but graciously admit that I was wrong and sing the praises of the scientific method. However, if ghosts don't exist, there can be no associated moment of revelation, because what we'd expect to see is a glaring lack of evidence, not evidence itself, and lack of evidence can only accumulate over time. And indeed it has done: in the history of humanity, there have been roughly 100 billion people, so even if humans were the only things on the entire planet with souls, we'd be swimming in an absolute sea of them. Yet oddly enough, despite humanity's deep and long-lasting fascination with the spirit realm, we have no concrete evidence of its existence whatsoever. What we do have is a handful of inconsistent eyewitness accounts gathered primarily from people suffering some kind of mental stress or impairment (including sleep.) So there really is no serious debate about the existence of ghosts. But serious debate about why some people (including yourself) believe so passionately that they saw such things... now, that's interesting.
You're wrong. I don't believe lots of things, like induction. Oh, that's not new is it...
Only one of following things is true:
1) Literally thousands of incredibly smart people spanning three millennia and hundreds of cultures have been deceived by induction, or were just too polite to point out a counter-example they'd discovered.
2) Kirk Bevins is not good at logic.
I wonder which?
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Kirk Bevins »

Charlie Reams wrote: in the history of humanity, there have been roughly 100 billion people, so even if humans were the only things on the entire planet with souls, we'd be swimming in an absolute sea of them.
2) Kirk Bevins is not good at logic.
I wonder which?
Firstly, I am logical. This does not mean I have to fully understand all the mathematical notation used at degree level with regard to the topic of logic. Secondly, your argument sounds similar to the fact that bacteria can't exist because there are 100 billion of them and we're not swimming in an absolute sea of them....until the microscope was invented. You wait until a new piece of scientific equipment is invented....
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Re: Ghosts?

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Charlie Reams wrote:So there really is no serious debate about the existence of ghosts. But serious debate about why some people (including yourself) believe so passionately that they saw such things... now, that's interesting.
Noone's commented on my post. So how would you explain (anyone!) how I saw a woman in the room that noone else did? And I wasn't in a semi-conscious state - I was awake, at an afternoon party, and didn't realise she was a ghost until another day when I found out I was the only person who had seen her. :o

There was no floaty curtains, weirdness, or figures in white Victorian clothes, etc (the 'usual' ghost settings and attire). She was just 'normal', dressed in jeans and a jumper and looking fully solid!

Maybe we've all seen ghosts, and we only notice the ones in period costumes. Maybe we all walk past many every day, but because they're dressed in modern day clothing, we don't notice them... :?

BTW I expect scepticism from you - I probably would have some doubt myself if I didn't recall so clearly the event and wasn't so darn sure of how baffling and odd it was at the time.

I can't think of any other explanation other than I saw a ghost.
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Re: Ghosts?

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Lesley Jeavons wrote:Noone's commented on my post. So how would you explain (anyone!) how I saw a woman in the room that noone else did? And I wasn't in a semi-conscious state - I was awake, at an afternoon party, and didn't realise she was a ghost until another day when I found out I was the only person who had seen her.
Lesley, it is quite possible that you were dreaming and later conflated the dream with your memory of the party. I have often remembered dreams so vividly that I talked about them as real events and only later realised that what I am describing simply could not have happened. As to your friend's mother confirming your recollection years later - people are very suggestible, and people also like to persuade themselves that they are involved. I really can't think that a ghost is your best hypothesis.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Charlie Reams »

Kirk Bevins wrote:
Charlie Reams wrote: in the history of humanity, there have been roughly 100 billion people, so even if humans were the only things on the entire planet with souls, we'd be swimming in an absolute sea of them.
2) Kirk Bevins is not good at logic.
I wonder which?
Firstly, I am logical. This does not mean I have to fully understand all the mathematical notation used at degree level with regard to the topic of logic. Secondly, your argument sounds similar to the fact that bacteria can't exist because there are 100 billion of them and we're not swimming in an absolute sea of them....until the microscope was invented. You wait until a new piece of scientific equipment is invented....
If you really believed that then you'd invest all your money and time into designing such a piece of equipment, because the rewards and acclaim for such a discovery would be incredible and your place in history would be assured. Let's see if you put your money where your mouth is.
Lesley Jeavons wrote:There was no floaty curtains, weirdness, or figures in white Victorian clothes, etc (the 'usual' ghost settings and attire). She was just 'normal', dressed in jeans and a jumper and looking fully solid!
Rosemary suggests several plausible things. Also hallucinations really do happen, even in people who are otherwise healthy, and this is quite well documented (even if not well understood.) Sometimes we just have to accept that our own senses have deceived us, just as with an optical illusion or a cloud that looks like a dragon. It's cool and it's interesting, but real science it ain't.
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Re: Ghosts?

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Lesley Jeavons wrote:So how would you explain (anyone!) how I saw a woman in the room that noone else did? And I wasn't in a semi-conscious state - I was awake, at an afternoon party, and didn't realise she was a ghost until another day when I found out I was the only person who had seen her. :o
It was a party of 2, hence the other person couldn't see themself. 8-)
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Kirk Bevins »

Charlie Reams wrote: If you really believed that then you'd invest all your money and time into designing such a piece of equipment, because the rewards and acclaim for such a discovery would be incredible and your place in history would be assured. Let's see if you put your money where your mouth is.

I'm sure I would have believed that you can look at distant objects closer but I wouldn't have been clever enough to invent the telescope. The same principle applies here. You won't win.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Charlie Reams »

Kirk Bevins wrote:
Charlie Reams wrote: If you really believed that then you'd invest all your money and time into designing such a piece of equipment, because the rewards and acclaim for such a discovery would be incredible and your place in history would be assured. Let's see if you put your money where your mouth is.
I'm sure I would have believed that you can look at distant objects closer but I wouldn't have been clever enough to invent the telescope. The same principle applies here. You won't win.
You're right, I won't, because you want it be to true so strongly that you won't even consider the possibility that maybe it isn't. But I can still expose your inability to think rationally, because it might stop other people making the same mistakes.

And again, if you really believed it, you could fund other people to do the research and then take all the credit yourself. Qui facit per alium facit per se. Let's see if you do.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Kirk Bevins »

Charlie Reams wrote: You're right, I won't, because you want it be to true so strongly that you won't even consider the possibility that maybe it isn't. But I can still expose your inability to think rationally, because it might stop other people making the same mistakes.

And again, if you really believed it, you could fund other people to do the research and then take all the credit yourself. Qui facit per alium facit per se. Let's see if you do.
*sigh*. I don't believe it - I just don't disbelieve. It's like being an agnostic but for ghosts. I have an open mind when it comes to that sort of thing, which, as I've said loads of times before, is very rare for me so there must be *something* that's keeping me cautious to sway to the side of "ghosts are non-existent".
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Ian Volante »

Charlie Reams wrote:Qui facit per alium facit per se.
Why bring garlic into the debate? Ah, vampires, yes.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Charlie Reams »

Kirk Bevins wrote: *sigh*. I don't believe it - I just don't disbelieve. It's like being an agnostic but for ghosts. I have an open mind when it comes to that sort of thing, which, as I've said loads of times before, is very rare for me so there must be *something* that's keeping me cautious to sway to the side of "ghosts are non-existent".
If you believe in things without evidence then you should profess the same "not disbelief" in all the other infinity of things which probably don't exist, and clearly you don't. So what's different in this case? For full marks, don't admit that it's just because you find it exciting and fun.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by George Jenkins »

Kirk Bevins wrote:
Charlie Reams wrote:My original point was that Kirk is quite happy to believe bullshit as long as it's exciting and new, so that explains the reconciliation.
You're wrong. I don't believe lots of things, like induction. Oh, that's not new is it...
Obviously I don't know everything after all, "what's induction"? If it is exiting, I'm going to join.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Martin Gardner »

George Jenkins wrote:Obviously I don't know everything after all, "what's induction"? If it is exiting, I'm going to join.
Hmm that's pretty amibiguous or just plain wrong lol.

But no, ghost or God or some Gods might well exist, it's very difficult to prove that something doesn't exist. Sort of reminds me on "Have I Got News For You" when Tony Blair was interviewed by the police, the presenter asked Ian Hislop "who wasn't there" and he basically answered "lot's of people weren't there". If there were only two people in the room, then 6 billion people weren't.

That's possibly not as relevant as I first though, but I don't passionately believe that ghost don't exist, I think Kirk's argument works fine, although you could justify absolutely anything like that. Think of Descartes hypothesis about the 'devil' (now often the evil scientist) who fools you into thinking the real world exists by using evil magic and powers, when in fact nothing in the world exists apart from you, the devil and his illusions. See The Matrix I for a perfect example of this. How can you prove (or even demonstrate) that the real world exists?
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by George Jenkins »

Martin Gardner wrote:
George Jenkins wrote:Obviously I don't know everything after all, "what's induction"? If it is exiting, I'm going to join.
Hmm that's pretty amibiguous or just plain wrong lol.

But no, ghost or God or some Gods might well exist, it's very difficult to prove that something doesn't exist. Sort of reminds me on "Have I Got News For You" when Tony Blair was interviewed by the police, the presenter asked Ian Hislop "who wasn't there" and he basically answered "lot's of people weren't there". If there were only two people in the room, then 6 billion people weren't.

That's possibly not as relevant as I first though, but I don't passionately believe that ghost don't exist, I think Kirk's argument works fine, although you could justify absolutely anything like that. Think of Descartes hypothesis about the 'devil' (now often the evil scientist) who fools you into thinking the real world exists by using evil magic and powers, when in fact nothing in the world exists apart from you, the devil and his illusions. See The Matrix I for a perfect example of this. How can you prove (or even demonstrate) that the real world exists?
A dead body is a lump of dead meat, So organised religion introduced the concept of the soul which can escape from the carcase, I.E. the holy ghost. My own PERSONAL opinion, is that this teaching devoped the myth of the existance of ghosts sprouting from the bodies of the dead. I await the posts that gleefully inform me that my opinion is a load of bollocks, and that the belief in the existence of ghosts was before the birth of the first ever recorded con-man, Jesus Christ. I know that there was a belief in various "gods", and you can take your pick from Norse, Eastern, and Western gods. Jesus of course, went one step further. He decided that his god needed a son. Well! It beats working for a living, doesn't it? By the way, is it true that he said-"suffer little children to come unto me". If I said that, I'd be investigated by the police.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Charlie Reams »

George Jenkins wrote:He decided that his god needed a son. Well! It beats working for a living, doesn't it?
Haha, excellent.

Seriously though, Jesus wasn't any more deceptive than any other prophet (before or after), and at least he had some good points on morality. The thing about God having a son comes from Jewish lore, and Jesus wasn't the first to claim to be the fulfillment of the prophecy, although he was unusually successful.
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Lesley Jeavons »

Thanks for responding, with some theories. :D
Rosemary Roberts wrote:
Lesley Jeavons wrote:Noone's commented on my post. So how would you explain (anyone!) how I saw a woman in the room that noone else did? And I wasn't in a semi-conscious state - I was awake, at an afternoon party, and didn't realise she was a ghost until another day when I found out I was the only person who had seen her.
Lesley, it is quite possible that you were dreaming and later conflated the dream with your memory of the party. I have often remembered dreams so vividly that I talked about them as real events and only later realised that what I am describing simply could not have happened. As to your friend's mother confirming your recollection years later - people are very suggestible, and people also like to persuade themselves that they are involved. I really can't think that a ghost is your best hypothesis.
Charlie Reams wrote:
Lesley Jeavons wrote:There was no floaty curtains, weirdness, or figures in white Victorian clothes, etc (the 'usual' ghost settings and attire). She was just 'normal', dressed in jeans and a jumper and looking fully solid!
Rosemary suggests several plausible things. Also hallucinations really do happen, even in people who are otherwise healthy, and this is quite well documented (even if not well understood.) Sometimes we just have to accept that our own senses have deceived us, just as with an optical illusion or a cloud that looks like a dragon. It's cool and it's interesting, but real science it ain't.
Hmmm, as it was so long ago that I find it hard to argue my case with complete conviction. I too remember some dreams so vividly, but never to the point that I've actually confused them with real life. If this is the answer then it would have been a one off, to my knowledge...
Likewise, I've never hallucinated... or have I... you lot are going to have me questioning my own existance. ;)
Kai Laddiman wrote:
Lesley Jeavons wrote:So how would you explain (anyone!) how I saw a woman in the room that noone else did? And I wasn't in a semi-conscious state - I was awake, at an afternoon party, and didn't realise she was a ghost until another day when I found out I was the only person who had seen her. :o
It was a party of 2, hence the other person couldn't see themself. 8-)
:lol: Very good! Reminds me of one of those little solve what's happened before. What was it now... Fred lies naked in the corner, surrounded by broken glass in a pool of liquid, while Tom cowers shivering in the corner.
What happened prior to this?
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by JimBentley »

Lesley Jeavons wrote:Fred lies naked in the corner, surrounded by broken glass in a pool of liquid, while Tom cowers shivering in the corner.
What happened prior to this?
I don't know. Were Fred and Tom attending a party at Michael Barrymore's house?
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Rosemary Roberts »

Lesley Jeavons wrote:Fred lies naked in the corner, surrounded by broken glass in a pool of liquid, while Tom cowers shivering in the corner.
What happened prior to this?
Is this a new forum competition?

Fred has just managed to break the retort in which Tom had imprisoned him; Tom is shivering because he knows that Fred will be really mad when he comes round.
And, of course, Fred is naked because it was a rude retort. Boom Boom
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Re: Ghosts?

Post by Jimmy Gough »

Lesley Jeavons wrote:Fred lies naked in the corner, surrounded by broken glass in a pool of liquid, while Tom cowers shivering in the corner.
What happened prior to this?
Hmmmm....certainly something fishy about that.
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