Track and Field Athletics

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Gavin Chipper
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Track and Field Athletics

Post by Gavin Chipper » Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:32 pm

We've had various athletics discussions on this forum but they have taken place in threads with very specific titles, like this and this so I thought I'd start a new one.

Anyway, Joshua Cheptegei set a new world record in the 5000m with a time of 12:35.36. And I have heard pretty much nothing about it from anyone, which I find a bit strange. They mentioned it in passing on BBC Breakfast the morning after but that's all I've heard without going out of my way to look. Surprisingly none of my many runner friends on Facebook mentioned it, which is weird because they have mentioned other similar things previously.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Fred Mumford » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:22 am

Like darts and snooker, I think athletics is one of those sports that was huge in the 80s but that nobody really gives a shit about anymore.

Whilst I was massively impressed that they came clean that Ben Johnson had failed a drugs test, in the years since it has unfortunately become too easy to be cynical - and basically if you think everyone is cheating (or worse still, you can't tell who is and who isn't) then what's the point?

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Marc Meakin » Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:02 am

It's always popular at the Olympics
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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Paul Worsley » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:00 pm

Fred Mumford wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:22 am
Like darts and snooker, I think athletics is one of those sports that was huge in the 80s but that nobody really gives a shit about anymore.

Whilst I was massively impressed that they came clean that Ben Johnson had failed a drugs test, in the years since it has unfortunately become too easy to be cynical - and basically if you think everyone is cheating (or worse still, you can't tell who is and who isn't) then what's the point?
I agree with this completely, except to say that darts is bigger now than it has ever been.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Gavin Chipper » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:44 pm

Paul Worsley wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:00 pm
Fred Mumford wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:22 am
Like darts and snooker, I think athletics is one of those sports that was huge in the 80s but that nobody really gives a shit about anymore.

Whilst I was massively impressed that they came clean that Ben Johnson had failed a drugs test, in the years since it has unfortunately become too easy to be cynical - and basically if you think everyone is cheating (or worse still, you can't tell who is and who isn't) then what's the point?
I agree with this completely, except to say that darts is bigger now than it has ever been.
I don't know how big darts is generally, but take away my Countdown friends and the Kirk Bevins effect, and I'm not sure I know anyone who gives a shit about it.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Adam Gillard » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:45 pm

This is the most impressive Track and Field thing I've seen this year, from February (BBC Sport article):

Image
Mike Brown: "Round 12: T N R S A E I G U

C1: SIGNATURE (18) ["9; not written down"]
C2: SEATING (7)
Score: 108–16 (max 113)

Another niner for Adam and yet another century. Well done, that man."

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Gavin Chipper » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:23 pm

I mean, it's the most impressive record of all time, given that no-one has managed to run half that distance in the time she took to walk it.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Ian Volante » Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:30 pm

I suspect it's mostly because it's not at a big championship. Diamond League might be the top event every season, but it simply can't compete with e.g. the World champs for profile etc.
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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Phil H » Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:32 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:44 pm
I don't know how big darts is generally, but take away my Countdown friends and the Kirk Bevins effect, and I'm not sure I know anyone who gives a shit about it.
A few weeks ago I went to my local pub hoping I could ask for the French domestic cup final featuring Paris Saint-Germain (football) to be put on the TV, but it turned out a group had already asked for the darts, which I took as a sign of darts' growth.

I can only surmise that the fact Cheptegei's record didn't occur in a particularly major event, and probably not everyone had twigged that athletics events were happening again at all, might have contributed to the lack of attention it got. Plus - and I've been guilty of this myself - the tendency of some in this part of the world to mentally lump all "African middle-distance runners" into a generic, superhuman monolith.

I think the BBC gives athletics a decent amount of coverage given that I hardly know anyone I could chat about it with, although they tend to neglect the field events relative to the running races.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Gavin Chipper » Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:22 pm

Mo Farah beat the one hour world record the other day, and I did see a bit more about this, although not very much - he is British though so that helps.

It's a bit of a random record though. It's not a distance that's often run, so that likely makes it easier than some others. And we can find out. It's very close to half marathon (he ran 21,330m; half marathon is 21,097.5m) distance and if you assume exactly the same pace, he would run a half marathon in about 59:21. That counts against him slightly because his race was slightly longer, but not by much. If you use this calculator it works out at 59:14 equivalent (although I know that calculator throws out rounding errors) and if you use this calculator it works out at 59:19 equivalent.

And if you look here, you will see that the half marathon world record is 58:01, which is quite a lot faster. Farah's time would not make the top 80 even with the most generous time. Mo Farah's half marathon PB is actually slightly faster at 59:07, although apparently on a slightly downhill course.

And finally, arguably the half marathon record itself is likely to be slightly "soft" as it's not really as "main" a distance as the distances either side of it - 10,000m and the full marathon. It doesn't feature among the world or Olympic athletics events. The world record holder is Geoffrey Kamworor whose best achievement is probably winning the silver medal at the 10,000m world championships in 2015 or winning the New York Marathon in 2017 and 2019. His marathon PB is only the 268th fastest time. He's 74th for the 10,000m and 366th for the 5000m.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Thomas Carey » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:54 am

If I was Geoffrey I would simply have run for another two minutes and picked up a free record 🙂
cheers maus

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Phil H » Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:28 pm

"Despite the lack of big names, the British Athletics Championships peaked at 1.4 million viewers on BBC2 at 8.25pm Friday - more than BBC1 and ITV at the same time."

(from @benbloomsport on twitter)

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Phil H » Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:31 pm

Obviously nearly breaking a record is never going to be as sexy as actually doing it, but I was quite excited about Johannes Vetter's 97.76 in the javelin on Sunday - only 72cm behind Jan Zelezny's 98.48, which I've heard being called the most impressive of all athletics world records.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Marc Meakin » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:25 am

Phil H wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:31 pm
Obviously nearly breaking a record is never going to be as sexy as actually doing it, but I was quite excited about Johannes Vetter's 97.76 in the javelin on Sunday - only 72cm behind Jan Zelezny's 98.48, which I've heard being called the most impressive of all athletics world records.
Didn't they have to redisign the javelin due to the risk of it hitting the running track?.

Until it finally got broken I would say Bob Beamons record in the long jump was the most impressive field event record
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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Ian Volante » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:49 am

Phil H wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:31 pm
Obviously nearly breaking a record is never going to be as sexy as actually doing it, but I was quite excited about Johannes Vetter's 97.76 in the javelin on Sunday - only 72cm behind Jan Zelezny's 98.48, which I've heard being called the most impressive of all athletics world records.
Ooh, I've not seen much 90m+ throwing for ages. No thanks to the BBC who really don't like throwing events! I must look out for this bloke.
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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Gavin Chipper » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:25 pm

Marc Meakin wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:25 am

Didn't they have to redisign the javelin due to the risk of it hitting the running track?.
They did redesign it but before the Zelezny record. Old specs.
Until it finally got broken I would say Bob Beamons record in the long jump was the most impressive field event record
It was at altitude though. Which makes me wonder why they don't always just go to somewhere like Mexico City for the jump and sprint records. Fun fact - Bob Beamon's record lasted from 1968 to 1991 - 23 years. Mike Powell's "new" record has last from 1991 until today - 29 years.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Marc Meakin » Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:44 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:25 pm
Marc Meakin wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:25 am

Didn't they have to redisign the javelin due to the risk of it hitting the running track?.
They did redesign it but before the Zelezny record. Old specs.
Until it finally got broken I would say Bob Beamons record in the long jump was the most impressive field event record
It was at altitude though. Which makes me wonder why they don't always just go to somewhere like Mexico City for the jump and sprint records. Fun fact - Bob Beamon's record lasted from 1968 to 1991 - 23 years. Mike Powell's "new" record has last from 1991 until today - 29 years.
Valid point about Powell record still standing although I believe its only 5 cm better than Beamons, although I'm pretty sure the record before that was much greater.
Edit it was fucking 55 centimetres longer, I can't believe altitude makes that much difference surely
Another impressive record was Seb Coes 800 record from 1981 that must have lasted quite a few years too
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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by David Williams » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:25 pm

Honourable mention for Jonathan Edwards, whose world triple jump record has stood for 25 years. He also held the previous record, which stood for about 25 minutes.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Fiona T » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:47 pm

David Williams wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:25 pm
Honourable mention for Jonathan Edwards, whose world triple jump record has stood for 25 years. He also held the previous record, which stood for about 25 minutes.
Blimey, that makes me feel old!
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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Marc Meakin » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:53 pm

David Williams wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:25 pm
Honourable mention for Jonathan Edwards, whose world triple jump record has stood for 25 years. He also held the previous record, which stood for about 25 minutes.
Although I was pleased when he won his medals I've always considered the triple jump the most inferior of field events
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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Fred Mumford » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:50 pm

The worst events are the high jump and pole vault due to their binary nature - setting the target in advance and then just seeing whether you can make it or not. It's what allowed Bubka to break the world record countless times by touring the big events and upping the record by a centimetre at a time, no doubt earning a fortune for doing so, whilst probably routinely being able to go 20cm higher in training.

Renaldo Nehemiah's record always impressed me, it may not have lasted quite as long as some but he was way ahead of his peers. Mind you, I guess you could say that about the current record too.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Phil H » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:38 pm

Fred Mumford wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:50 pm
The worst events are the high jump and pole vault due to their binary nature - setting the target in advance and then just seeing whether you can make it or not. It's what allowed Bubka to break the world record countless times by touring the big events and upping the record by a centimetre at a time, no doubt earning a fortune for doing so, whilst probably routinely being able to go 20cm higher in training.
Bubka must have known he was far above his contemporaries to play that game? I've enjoyed men's pole vault in recent years - genuinely competitive at a really high standard. High jump was great a few years ago with Barshim threatening the record while being pushed hard by Bondarenko and others.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Phil H » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:41 pm

Ian Volante wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:49 am

Ooh, I've not seen much 90m+ throwing for ages. No thanks to the BBC who really don't like throwing events! I must look out for this bloke.
Volante-like cheekbones to boot.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Marc Meakin » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:36 am

Speaking of records is Kratichvilovas (dubious) 800 netres record ever gonna be beat?
I think it's from 1983 it must be the longest standing track record.
Maria Koch has a record in the 400 metres that's also over 35 years old.
Can we assume there was a little testosterone involved
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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Gavin Chipper » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:02 am

Oh and by the way, Joshua Cheptegai has also broken the 10000m world record, with Letesenbet Gidey also beating the women's 5000m record.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Gavin Chipper » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:06 am

Phil H wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:38 pm
Fred Mumford wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:50 pm
The worst events are the high jump and pole vault due to their binary nature - setting the target in advance and then just seeing whether you can make it or not. It's what allowed Bubka to break the world record countless times by touring the big events and upping the record by a centimetre at a time, no doubt earning a fortune for doing so, whilst probably routinely being able to go 20cm higher in training.
Bubka must have known he was far above his contemporaries to play that game? I've enjoyed men's pole vault in recent years - genuinely competitive at a really high standard. High jump was great a few years ago with Barshim threatening the record while being pushed hard by Bondarenko and others.
I wonder if Bubka regrets playing this game. He might still have the world record if he just tried his best to go as high as he could.

And on the high jump / pole vault thing, surely nowadays they could have a system of laser beams or something to measure the height you reach, so each jump is properly measured, rather than having to get over each set height!

The long jump and triple jump are also pretty crude. Your jump is measured by the further back bit of sand that is disturbed I believe, but when you land, it must be pretty random how far backwards the disturbance goes. Lasers all round!

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Ian Volante » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:10 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:06 am

And on the high jump / pole vault thing, surely nowadays they could have a system of laser beams or something to measure the height you reach, so each jump is properly measured, rather than having to get over each set height!
Aye, but you can't ask people to jump over nothing. The bar provides a point in space to aim for, and tactile feedback, both crucial. I'd agree that the distance above the bar might also be measured by such a method, another way of doing this could be to have them jumping over a large pile of tiny bricks which would act in the same way as sand.
Gavin Chipper wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:06 am
The long jump and triple jump are also pretty crude. Your jump is measured by the further back bit of sand that is disturbed I believe, but when you land, it must be pretty random how far backwards the disturbance goes. Lasers all round!
In this case, not falling backwards is part of the skill. It's easy to throw your feet way out in front of you, but there's not much point just measuring where they land if you're laying flat on your back afterwards. I'd suggest that the long jump can be seen as analogous to getting across a river, and where any of you hits the surface is crucial in that situation.
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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Marc Meakin » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:51 pm

Ian Volante wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:10 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:06 am

And on the high jump / pole vault thing, surely nowadays they could have a system of laser beams or something to measure the height you reach, so each jump is properly measured, rather than having to get over each set height!
Aye, but you can't ask people to jump over nothing. The bar provides a point in space to aim for, and tactile feedback, both crucial. I'd agree that the distance above the bar might also be measured by such a method, another way of doing this could be to have them jumping over a large pile of tiny bricks which would act in the same way as sand.
Gavin Chipper wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:06 am
The long jump and triple jump are also pretty crude. Your jump is measured by the further back bit of sand that is disturbed I believe, but when you land, it must be pretty random how far backwards the disturbance goes. Lasers all round!
In this case, not falling backwards is part of the skill. It's easy to throw your feet way out in front of you, but there's not much point just measuring where they land if you're laying flat on your back afterwards. I'd suggest that the long jump can be seen as analogous to getting across a river, and where any of you hits the surface is crucial in that situation.
When it comes to long jump (and triple jump for those that consider it a non joke event) it would be nice if the measurement was from take off to landing.
Some big jumps were from before the plasticine mark
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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Sam Cappleman-Lynes » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:19 pm

Marc Meakin wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:51 pm
When it comes to long jump (and triple jump for those that consider it a non joke event) it would be nice if the measurement was from take off to landing.
Some big jumps were from before the plasticine mark
Ian's "jumping over a river" analogy is good here too. If you take off from before the edge of the bank that's your fault and you're going to get wet.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Fred Mumford » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:19 pm

Edwards' 18.29 was well behind the line, at least 10cm I would say. It's a shame his 18.43 was non legal for wind (2.4 ish I think), I wonder how much difference that really made. Either way I definitely think his world record doesn't quite do him justice, and am surprised it still stands today.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Gavin Chipper » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:32 pm

Ian Volante wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:10 pm
Gavin Chipper wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:06 am
The long jump and triple jump are also pretty crude. Your jump is measured by the further back bit of sand that is disturbed I believe, but when you land, it must be pretty random how far backwards the disturbance goes. Lasers all round!
In this case, not falling backwards is part of the skill. It's easy to throw your feet way out in front of you, but there's not much point just measuring where they land if you're laying flat on your back afterwards. I'd suggest that the long jump can be seen as analogous to getting across a river, and where any of you hits the surface is crucial in that situation.
I understand this, but there might be a "wake" that travels back a bit beyond where you actually make contact, and how far this goes is likely to be basically random.
Last edited by Gavin Chipper on Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Marc Meakin » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:45 pm

Fred Mumford wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:19 pm
Edwards' 18.29 was well behind the line, at least 10cm I would say. It's a shame his 18.43 was non legal for wind (2.4 ish I think), I wonder how much difference that really made. Either way I definitely think his world record doesn't quite do him justice, and am surprised it still stands today.
Not being facetious here but does it say anywhere that a track or sand pit has to be on a level plane.
I mean if you had a significant downward incline then you could go much further.
As for wind speed that's a bit of a joke ad it is only measured from when you start your run up
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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Ian Volante » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:34 pm

Marc Meakin wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:45 pm
Fred Mumford wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:19 pm
Edwards' 18.29 was well behind the line, at least 10cm I would say. It's a shame his 18.43 was non legal for wind (2.4 ish I think), I wonder how much difference that really made. Either way I definitely think his world record doesn't quite do him justice, and am surprised it still stands today.
Not being facetious here but does it say anywhere that a track or sand pit has to be on a level plane.
I mean if you had a significant downward incline then you could go much further.
As for wind speed that's a bit of a joke ad it is only measured from when you start your run up
I'll admit that I've not looked into the rules, but I'd be amazed if athletics venues didn't have stipulated a minimum gradient, otherwise they wouldn't be used for high-level events. Also, the water would run out of the steeplechase pit.
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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Fiona T » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:08 pm

https://www.uka.org.uk/EasysiteWeb/getr ... Attachment

2. The maximum lateral inclination of the runway should be 1:100
(1%) unless special circumstances exist which justify the IAAF
providing an exemption and, in the last 40m of the runway, the
overall downward inclination in the direction of running shall not
exceed 1:1000 (0.1%).

and

7. The landing area should be filled with soft damp sand, the top
surface of which shall be level with the take-off board.
8-) <-2m-> 8-)

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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Ian Volante » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:45 am

Fiona T wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:08 pm
https://www.uka.org.uk/EasysiteWeb/getr ... Attachment

2. The maximum lateral inclination of the runway should be 1:100
(1%) unless special circumstances exist which justify the IAAF
providing an exemption and, in the last 40m of the runway, the
overall downward inclination in the direction of running shall not
exceed 1:1000 (0.1%).

and

7. The landing area should be filled with soft damp sand, the top
surface of which shall be level with the take-off board.
Perfect, thanks.
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Re: Track and Field Athletics

Post by Marc Meakin » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:09 pm

I do like the vagueries of measurement of sports pitches especially football.
The minimum and maximum measurements vary a lot and if you've ever been to Oxford Uniteds ground you will see that sloping pitches are alliwed
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