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Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:36 am
by Elliott Mellor
Rhys Benjamin wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:29 am
- Their numbers are worse than England’s.
Source please. What are you using as this metric? Number of deaths? Number of cases? Cases per 100000 of the population? Something else?

I've just checked the gov.uk website...

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/deaths shows 49612 deaths in England vs 4256 in Scotland. That's 88.1 per 100k population vs 77.9.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/cases shows 491428 cases in England vs 37033 in Scotland. Per 100k population that's 873.1 vs 677.9.

Sure as hell doesn't look like their numbers are worse than ours. Perhaps you can explain a different way of interpreting this government data.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:12 pm
by Rhys Benjamin
Their R number is higher than in England.

Their positivity rate (i.e. cases scaled for testing numbers) is 13%, whereas in England it’s less than 5%.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:45 pm
by Elliott Mellor
Fair enough, by that metric they are doing worse. It would have been a lot more helpful if you'd clarified this, though, since by the metrics I wrote England is doing far worse.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:48 pm
by Sam Cappleman-Lynes
In fairness, Rhys was just responding to the request to summarise the article, and it's probably spelled out in there, although I'm not a subscriber so I haven't read it.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:50 pm
by Rhys Benjamin
In fairness to Elliott I meant the present tense, as in the situation in Scotland now is worse than England now (mainly because England's outbreaks are highly localised) but I can understand why you would think I meant "done" rather than "doing" even though I used neither of those words.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:54 am
by Ian Volante
Rhys Benjamin wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:12 pm
Their R number is higher than in England.

Their positivity rate (i.e. cases scaled for testing numbers) is 13%, whereas in England it’s less than 5%.
As far as I've seen, the R number for all (possibly maybe not quite all) regions of the UK is somewhere in a range which is statistically inseparable. The confidence range for Scotland is a little higher than elsewhere, I suspect that's what you're referring to.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:20 pm
by Rhys Benjamin
Now that Captain Hindsight has called for one, Sky News have sent three notifications today about a second lockdown and why they think it’s a good idea, yet not one peep out of them about the WHO U-turning on lockdowns. Bias.

It’s also notable that for many people their Brexit position correlates to their lockdown position - from full remoan ignore the referendum (lockdown forever) to no dealers (get rid of social distancing).

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:29 pm
by Fiona T
Rhys Benjamin wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:20 pm
It’s also notable that for many people their Brexit position correlates to their lockdown position
Do you have evidence for that?

Edit to say that wasn't meant to sound confrontational - genuinely curious if this is the case or just supposition

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:06 pm
by Gavin Chipper
Quite often you have a "left" position and a "right" position on seemingly completely unrelated subjects. How many people fit this model in reality though I don't know.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:00 pm
by Noel Mc
We (NI) are going in to a two week lockdown from this weekend. Schools closed an extra week for mid term. Restaurants etc. all shut. Close to the full shabang.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:26 pm
by Rhys Benjamin
Fiona T wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:29 pm
Rhys Benjamin wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:20 pm
It’s also notable that for many people their Brexit position correlates to their lockdown position
Do you have evidence for that?

Edit to say that wasn't meant to sound confrontational - genuinely curious if this is the case or just supposition
It’s just anecdotal for now.

——

More media bias: just over two hours before Labour called for a lockdown, Ashworth claimed Labour don’t want one. Not a peep out of the media on this either.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:52 am
by Elliott Mellor
Rhys Benjamin wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:26 pm
Fiona T wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:29 pm
Rhys Benjamin wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:20 pm
It’s also notable that for many people their Brexit position correlates to their lockdown position
Do you have evidence for that?

Edit to say that wasn't meant to sound confrontational - genuinely curious if this is the case or just supposition
It’s just anecdotal for now.

——

More media bias: just over two hours before Labour called for a lockdown, Ashworth claimed Labour don’t want one. Not a peep out of the media on this either.
Lol, so basically you made a wild overgeneralisation based on a few personal accounts. Funny how you're obsessed with how parties and such get branded and portraying the truth and stuff, yet you're perfectly happy to make claims like this and pass them off as true without anything solid to back you up. You're no better than the "media" which you talk about.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:30 am
by Marc Meakin
Noel Mc wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:00 pm
We (NI) are going in to a two week lockdown from this weekend. Schools closed an extra week for mid term. Restaurants etc. all shut. Close to the full shabang.
What about over the border?

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:43 am
by Gavin Chipper
I find it incredibly weird that in England, the Prime Minister/government of the entire UK gets to decide our coronavrius rules, but that other parts of the UK have their own system.

I know this is an age-old thing, and is related to e.g. this but it is a bizarre asymmetry nonetheless, and this whole coronavirus thing has brought it out strongly.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:55 am
by Jennifer Steadman
YouGov latest findings on 'rona restriction support, with Leave/Remain divides: 1; 2

So some significant differences, particularly on whether or not to encourage people back to workplaces, but not *extreme* differences in most areas.

This may also be of interest.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:43 am
by Elliott Mellor
Jennifer Steadman wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:55 am
YouGov latest findings on 'rona restriction support, with Leave/Remain divides: 1; 2

So some significant differences, particularly on whether or not to encourage people back to workplaces, but not *extreme* differences in most areas.

This may also be of interest.
Interesting, thanks for providing sources for Rhys's argument. I wasn't entirely disputing that there might be differences before, but when there is precisely zero evidence to back a point up then it rather negates the impact of it.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:44 pm
by Noel Mc
Marc Meakin wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:30 am
Noel Mc wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:00 pm
We (NI) are going in to a two week lockdown from this weekend. Schools closed an extra week for mid term. Restaurants etc. all shut. Close to the full shabang.
What about over the border?
Different restrictions depending on the county. Not totally up to speed. My brother works down in Dublin and he hasn't been able to leave the county for a month or so.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:48 pm
by Noel Mc
Gavin Chipper wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:43 am
I find it incredibly weird that in England, the Prime Minister/government of the entire UK gets to decide our coronavrius rules, but that other parts of the UK have their own system.

I know this is an age-old thing, and is related to e.g. this but it is a bizarre asymmetry nonetheless, and this whole coronavirus thing has brought it out strongly.
I've often thought about this. To me it would make sense for there to be a devolved government in England.

Granted, my perception has always been that 'England thinks they're the bosses, the rest are just plebs'. But as you've mentioned, it actually works the other way as well.

Why should my MP* get to have an input on decisions which just affect England.

*lol, my MP doesn't take his seat in parliament anyway

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:03 pm
by Rhys Benjamin
I wasn't really making a full "argument", Elliott, just a mere anecdotal observation. I was pleasantly surprised there was any sources at all for it (so much so I didn't bother to look), so that's a fascinating discovery, Jen.

Mind you, I have passionately argued against devolution for a number of years now (even regarding council tax). The problem is it's a political suicide to reinstate powers back to Westminster, unless the alternative is an English Assembly. London, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland all have assemblies and all have different levels of power devolution. One country* but about 5-6 systems.

There's two ways around this: have a devolved England and standardise devolved powers, or take back control of devolved powers. Devolution in terms of Scottish independence, however, seems to have a lingering stench of appeasement. No matter how many powers are given to Scotland, they still argue for independence.

*"nation state", to use the technical term, before people say "isn't Scotland/Wales/NI a country"

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:12 pm
by Noel Mc
Rhys Benjamin wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:03 pm
No matter how many powers are given to Scotland, they still argue for independence.
I'm not Scottish, so I don't know for sure, but I imagine this very sentiment is what drives some Scots towards wanting independence.

Removing the devolved government in Stormont would be very risky indeed. When the Assembly wasn't sitting for over a year, we verged towards Direct Rule, a phrase which does not sit well with a lot of people.


If
Scotland do have another independence referendum and if it is successful (or unsuccessful I suppose, depending on your view point), it would presumably only hasten an Irish unity referendum.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:19 am
by Ian Volante
Rhys Benjamin wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:03 pm
No matter how many powers are given to Scotland, they still argue for independence.
This feels like a naive comment.

People that want independence will generally argue for independence until it's granted - devolution is welcome for many of these people, but is a very different issue, and for many highlights failings in the system.

Devolution wasn't a done deal by any means in the 90s, and there are many people against it even now. There are numerous intersecting issues here on all sides, independence just one of many. It's by no means a unanimous issue within the SNP, and I'd wager that the current relatively high level of support for independence is driven by an impression of ongoing fecklessness at a UK level mixed with (wilful?) ignorance of, or illiteracy about, many issues that affect people outside the (demographically rather than geographically) affluent south of England.

It doesn't help that the collegiate approach that is sometimes professed at a UK regional level doesn't seem to be done in any sort of coherent manner, and that the people of England are generally being left behind with their own lack of a legislative chamber or regional devolution.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:12 am
by Gavin Chipper
I'm going to stick my neck out and say that, regardless of where one stands on devolution generally, dealing with an international pandemic shouldn't be a devolved issue.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:43 pm
by Noel Mc
Gavin Chipper wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:12 am
I'm going to stick my neck out and say that, regardless of where one stands on devolution generally, dealing with an international pandemic shouldn't be a devolved issue.
I would agree, but only so far as I think it should be dealt with on a land-mass basis. Wales, Scotland and England together, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland together.

Lots of people live in Scotland/Walee yet work in England and vice versa.

Lots of people live in NI and work in the ROI and vice versa.

I imagine the numbers are low for people commuting daily/weekly across the Irish Sea.

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:06 am
by Marc Meakin
Has a post been removed?

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:16 am
by Gavin Chipper
Marc Meakin wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:06 am
Has a post been removed?
What did it say?

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:58 am
by Marc Meakin
It's probably me having a senior moment.
Especially as I thought it was from you 😁

Re: COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:48 am
by Rhys Benjamin
Vallance really ought to resign. The government have always said they’re being led by the science but Vallance’s failures are quite extensive... https://t.co/y8W813Sfof