Why don't you like Tournament Scrabble

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Marc Meakin
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Why don't you like Tournament Scrabble

Post by Marc Meakin »

I thought I would try and find out why forumites , mostly, don't play competitive Scrabble.
I have been playing Tournament Scrabble for around twenty years.
Recently I have noticed that really have not been attracting new, younger players.
Is it because playing on Facebook meets your needs.
Or simply that although both Countdown and Scrabble are word (and numbers ) games, with numbers being more important in Countdown, that's were the similarity ends.
Both use different Dictionaries
Luck is a big part of scrabble, as is strategy.
Also my spies tell me that co events are much more fun and nothing like the A level exam level of seriousness at a countdown tournament .
There has definitely been a sea change since Apterous, The last prominent Scrabbler to win a series that I can remember was Craig Beevers.
But back in the eighties and nineties there were regular octochamps with a Scrabble background.
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Jennifer Steadman
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Re: Why don't you like Tournament Scrabble

Post by Jennifer Steadman »

I went to the Ilford one a few months ago. My reasons are:

1. I had signed up several times previously and had to drop out due to Sunday engineering works making it literally impossible for me to get there on the day, even though it's my closest tournament (!), because of the 9.30am start (!!!). Even when I did manage to go, I had to get the first train of the day and it was a pretty tight turnaround. This is not an inviting prospect, but with no closer tournament, it's either that or not going at all.

I've mentioned this several times in Scrabble Snippetz but have been dismissed ("We all do it!!!" That's great, but aren't you trying to attract new and younger players? Maybe listen to them??). More helpful players have suggested Facebook or private house tournaments, but - no offence - I don't want to go to a stranger's house or have all these randomers on my Facebook. If ISC were more useable then I'd probably use that, but compared to Apterous it's absolute trash.

2. Just generally from the Snippetz group, I don't get the impression that anyone genuinely wants to make the big changes that would encourage youth participation. You don't have to change what exists if you don't want to, but you then need to offer something else that does meet the needs of the people you ostensibly want to include and encourage. (Although the tournaments are in such weird or concentrated places that I suspect there aren't enough volunteers to run events?)

3. Some opponents were friendly, but the general greeting was "Do you know 2-letter words?" Apart from being slightly patronising, it wasn't the most warm or relatable way to be welcomed. Obviously there are Countdowners who are similarly intense with new players, but I would say that generally it's a lot more sociable. Pub shenanigans are the best part of Co-events! I know there are Weekenders, but that's far too intense and expensive for new players; I suppose the demographics are an obstacle to debauched nights out.

4. The hospital atmosphere during games was not only a bit offputting/stern/intense, but an active hindrance to being able to communicate with my opponents (one was bordering on deaf), and a bit rude too (some woman hissed at me a couple of times when I was having a nice chat with my opponent). Not something that really puts you at ease.

5. The different dictionaries, obviously, and particularly needing to learn all the anagrams of each common word.

Don't want this to seem like I'm slagging the tournament off specifically; it seemed well-run and the organisers/some of my opponents were friendly and helpful. And free entry to your first one is a massive bonus. But ultimately I'm still too invested in this damn game to bother caring about another game. And even if that weren't the case - every time I get into Scrabble, the interest dies off within a week.

Aside from that, it wasn't a community I felt like I belonged in, nor would ever get much enjoyment from. Making it more accessible to a younger and newer audience might improve that, but I'm not sure I really see it happening.
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Re: Why don't you like Tournament Scrabble

Post by Marc Meakin »

I was at that Tourney too, I was going to introduce myself but never found the opportunity .
I think the die hard Scrabbler don't embrace change easily.
Look at the furore over the introduction of tablet Scrabble.
I'm going to a tablet tournament in London in September, though it's a early-ish start it is good value.
Even though playing online face to face seems counter intuitive, it takes the faff ( for me ) of adding up , no overdrawing or dropped tiles and no phones.
So I'm going to see what the fuss is about
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Ben Wilson
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Re: Why don't you like Tournament Scrabble

Post by Ben Wilson »

Marc Meakin wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:22 pmAlso my spies tell me that co events are much more fun and nothing like the A level exam level of seriousness at a countdown tournament .
I haven't played a scrabble tournament in six years and this is the main reason why. Jen wrote it much more succinctly in point 4 of her post- co-events are much more social but no less competitive. Well, for those at the top of the food chain, but there the same could be said of Scrabble as well- a player rated 150-odd isn't going to win the NSC, and I can speak from experience there. On those rare occasions that I qualified, I went along as at the time I savoured the prospect of competition, but at some point (about 6 years ago, curiously enough), it struck me that co-events and Scrabble tournaments are similar beasts but built very differently.

A Scrabble tournament is a competition with a social aspect tagged on almost as an afterthought, and even then, in some cases, the word 'social' is stretching it. On the odd occasion, at a weekend tournament, I've actually been thrown off a dinner table by some players who had (somehow) reserved it for the exclusive use of members of their club. Even though their club isn't based anywhere near the venue in question. By comparison, a co-event is a social event with a competition tacked on as something for people to do (says the man with a ridiculously detailed COLIN statistics spreadsheet). The main reason I hosted the first COLIN was to meet the likes of Jim Bentley, Mike Brown and Charlie (sorry, Soo) Reams. This is still the main reason I go to events (even if Jim and Soo hardly go themselves anymore).

The co-event scene keeps expanding largely (mostly) thanks to apterous. People find the online scene, they play a few games, wonder over to the forum, the wiki, find the FOCAL website, get hooked. Maybe if Scrabble had a similar online presence, it'd help, but as Jen said, ISC is antiquated and Facebook Scrabble is too random in nature to be a community in the same way as apterous.

One thing I would say though (and I can almost hear Stewart Holden shouting at me here) is that if you want to give Scrabble a crack, your best bet would be to try club play first. It's much more relaxed, much more sociable and you're more likely to make friends you'd actually want to go to Scrabble tournaments with. But, of course, all of the above is just my opinion.
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Re: Why don't you like Tournament Scrabble

Post by szodiac »

My first Scrabble game was in 1986. Then it was a high scoring game. The Americans had been playing to win for ages. So to join in the world Scrabble scene the UK had to follow suit. It suddenly became an us and them situation. Top serious players alienating the weaker play for fun players. The Scrabble scene seems to have become quite restrictive even more so now. Invitationals are encouraged, Top players attend the odd one or two tournaments. Players I knew in 1986 have either stopped playing Scrabble altogether or sadly died. To be honest it feels like it has become a private members club.

I used to run the computer at tournaments inputting results, create pairings and in the early days adjudicate words. I am no longer needed these days as other people seem to be preferred in doing that role. (Although I still run and organise Sunday Drive for the London Scrabble League - you all are welcome just check the website for dates and venues). Wife Diane no longer enjoys Tournament Scrabble, Jessica no longer plays either, but is chair of the WESPA rules committee, while my other daughter Natasha also has other interests and no longer plays.

On the Countdown side I watched the first episode in November 1982 and have continued watching to the present day. Still enjoy it tremendously. The family played in a CoLin event run by Ben Wilson in 2012. Jessica and I played in a few other Co events along the way. I personally find these events more friendly and made to feel more welcome than any Scrabble tournament. Especially our first one at CoRea where everybody dressed as pirates. Co events are a definitely more relaxed, sociable and less strain on the brain.
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Re: Why don't you like Tournament Scrabble

Post by Marc Meakin »

szodiac wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:05 pm My first Scrabble game was in 1986. Then it was a high scoring game. The Americans had been playing to win for ages. So to join in the world Scrabble scene the UK had to follow suit. It suddenly became an us and them situation. Top serious players alienating the weaker play for fun players. The Scrabble scene seems to have become quite restrictive even more so now. Invitationals are encouraged, Top players attend the odd one or two tournaments. Players I knew in 1986 have either stopped playing Scrabble altogether or sadly died. To be honest it feels like it has become a private members club.

I used to run the computer at tournaments inputting results, create pairings and in the early days adjudicate words. I am no longer needed these days as other people seem to be preferred in doing that role. (Although I still run and organise Sunday Drive for the London Scrabble League - you all are welcome just check the website for dates and venues). Wife Diane no longer enjoys Tournament Scrabble, Jessica no longer plays either, but is chair of the WESPA rules committee, while my other daughter Natasha also has other interests and no longer plays.

On the Countdown side I watched the first episode in November 1982 and have continued watching to the present day. Still enjoy it tremendously. The family played in a CoLin event run by Ben Wilson in 2012. Jessica and I played in a few other Co events along the way. I personally find these events more friendly and made to feel more welcome than any Scrabble tournament. Especially our first one at CoRea where everybody dressed as pirates. Co events are a definitely more relaxed, sociable and less strain on the brain.
Maybe you could organise a Countdown/Scrabble event.
The emphasis being on having fun .
Maybe a few games of Scrabble using vowel and consonants bags. ( I tested this out and averaged 40 points more per game )
A few games of Countdown using CSW19 as the dictionary.
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Ian Volante
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Re: Why don't you like Tournament Scrabble

Post by Ian Volante »

I'm too busy to learn three-letter words.
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Re: Why don't you like Tournament Scrabble

Post by Martin Peters »

Ian Volante wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:55 pm I'm too busy to learn three-letter words.
Lol. I’ve never played tournament scrabble but I love Scrabble itself
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Re: Why don't you like Tournament Scrabble

Post by Marc Meakin »

Ian Volante wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:55 pm I'm too busy to learn three-letter words.
Maybe there could be a variant where only 4 letter word and above , plays are permitted.
The board could resemble a rather long snake at the end
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Fiona T
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Re: Why don't you like Tournament Scrabble

Post by Fiona T »

I've attended three Scrabble tournaments now - two one day ones, and one weekend.

The one day ones didn't have any social side that I was aware of (this may have been because they're still finding their feet post-covid), and as others have mentioned, seem like pretty serious affairs, with little opportunity for general chit chat, and gameplay conversation largely restricted to the necessities (I also got shh'ed at at my second tourney when chatting to a lady by the tea urn!)

The weekend one I just did was much more fun, and I really enjoyed the pub visits on Friday and Saturday night, and met some lovely, fun people. But I found the scrabble itself pretty full on - 15 games over two days was a lot, and an 8:30 am start on Sunday morning pretty tiring! I believe some even play in evenings too - for me I was scrabbled out after about 6 games in a day.

The overwhelming focus in Scrabble tournaments is the scrabble - with countdown it seems to be a (to my mind) better balance of countdown and sociability.

The other thing is that Scrabble tournaments are very expensive! The one I just attended had large cash prizes for each division - I don't know if people attend for the big prizes and would be put off attending with more modest prizes (or a nice trophy!), but it definitely makes the entrance fee pretty expensive. I suppose it might explain the serious atmosphere too - there's a lot of money at stake!

Don't get me started on dictionary difference whinges, but it's definitely a downside to potential crossover both ways. I think countdown should bite the bullet and adopt CSW - get a definitive wordlist, and appeal to a much wider audience - even non-competitive scrabble players who play online must be disappointed when their perfectly reasonable comparative is disallowed in CD because of some weird syllable rule!

All the tournaments were very well run and executed, and the people I did encounter were friendly, but I guess it depends what you want from a word game tournament - for a middling player like myself, it's a chance to be sociable playing an activity I enjoy with like-minded folk and to be unashamedly nerdy. Reducing the social side definitely reduces the enjoyment (largely why I much prefer Lincoln format countdown!)

Edit to add - I find the idea of "invitationals" a bit odd/cliquey - of course people are perfectly entitled to organise events and invite only their friends but IMO those events should be separate from official scrabble events and shouldn't affect official ABSP ratings. Maybe I've missed something here about these events - I'm pretty new to it all.
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Re: Why don't you like Tournament Scrabble

Post by Callum Todd »

Really interesting perspective Fiona, thanks for sharing. I'd be fascinated to try out a Scrabble tournament one day but I wonder how welcoming it would be to a total non-Scrabbler. If you notice anything at these tournaments you think co:events could do better be sure to say so and we can take it on board.

The idea of Countdown adopting CSW is an intriguing one. Obviously apto and co:events are always likely to follow Countdown's lead on this so it's up to them really. I think it depends on what Countdown is. Is it primarily a word game, amongst other word games? If so, moving to CSW would certainly be a good idea. Much more clarity on validity and more emphasis on anagramming ability. But I like that Countdown has more interest in the meanings of words: Dictionary Corner certainly sounds a lot better than Wordlist Corner.

I think the problem with the Oxford Online Dictionary is that it allows lots of silly made-up words but without any real consistency. Maybe it's the best compromise but for me the best solution would be to revert to the printed dictionary (much narrower range of words valid means it is more rewarding of 'organic' word knowledge, but misses out on some of the newer words especially around developing tech and internetspeak, etc.) Failing that, if an online dictionary must be used, I think CSW is the one.
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Re: Why don't you like Tournament Scrabble

Post by Matt Rutherford »

Bumping this as I spent Sunday at the Ilford Scrabble tournament and have got myself signed up for a two-day affair in Hinckley at the end of December. I'd recommend Aptofolk to give at least one Scrabble jaunt a go.

YAY-This one was run by our own James Burley, run very well. People were very friendly, and patient with the newbie (I lost all my games, including one against a nine-year-old. I got HOPLITE against him, though, so c'est la vie). Got shown how to work things (thanks Fiona!) and it's on the whole very enjoyable. Even if your short words aren't up to scratch, Countdown's fast anagramming and word knowledge does give you an advantage.

YAY/NAY (possibly)-Was markedly quieter and different to a CoEvent, as has been touched on before. I quite liked it in its own way, but I know that's not to everyone's tastes.

NAY (definitely)-Again, as touched on, it's a slight bugger to get to. It involved a stay at Stansted Airport (closest thing that didn't leave me destitute what with the boxing match) and a cross-London run. Timing was still tight as well

Regardless, give it a go, at least once. Our two games are similar, but still very different. Countdown is less to chance and more based on raw word-spotting skill, but Scrabble brings heavy tactical play into it. Makes for a neat contrast
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Re: Why don't you like Tournament Scrabble

Post by Marc Meakin »

Matt Rutherford wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:16 pm Bumping this as I spent Sunday at the Ilford Scrabble tournament and have got myself signed up for a two-day affair in Hinckley at the end of December. I'd recommend Aptofolk to give at least one Scrabble jaunt a go.

YAY-This one was run by our own James Burley, run very well. People were very friendly, and patient with the newbie (I lost all my games, including one against a nine-year-old. I got HOPLITE against him, though, so c'est la vie). Got shown how to work things (thanks Fiona!) and it's on the whole very enjoyable. Even if your short words aren't up to scratch, Countdown's fast anagramming and word knowledge does give you an advantage.

YAY/NAY (possibly)-Was markedly quieter and different to a CoEvent, as has been touched on before. I quite liked it in its own way, but I know that's not to everyone's tastes.

NAY (definitely)-Again, as touched on, it's a slight bugger to get to. It involved a stay at Stansted Airport (closest thing that didn't leave me destitute what with the boxing match) and a cross-London run. Timing was still tight as well

Regardless, give it a go, at least once. Our two games are similar, but still very different. Countdown is less to chance and more based on raw word-spotting skill, but Scrabble brings heavy tactical play into it. Makes for a neat contrast
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One game I played whereby I couldn't buy a vowel and my opponent had too many, I remarked, its a shame we can't use 2 seperated bags for vowels and consonants.
If i ever manage to go to a Co : Event I would like to play a game of Countdown Scrabble
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