Who would be the biggest deaths?

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by David Williams » Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:42 pm

I didn't misread your post. Maybe I could have worded my response more precisely. I'm just surprised that Ali is such a historical footnote to you.

I'd suggest you would be interested to find out more about him. Ten minutes on Wikipedia? You mention his popularity, but that came rather later. He was massively unpopular in the USA at the time.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Mark James » Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:40 pm

David Williams wrote: I'd suggest you would be interested to find out more about him. Ten minutes on Wikipedia? You mention his popularity, but that came rather later. He was massively unpopular in the USA at the time.
I just read his Wikipedia entry and I still don't get what's supposed to set him apart from anyone else? In terms of boxing don't other fighters have a better record than him? Marciano had 49 fights undefeated, Joe Louis had 66 wins to 3 losses while Ali had 56 wins and 5 losses. Then you have his nonsense religious beliefs, his support of black separatism, his womanizing, his insults towards fellow black fighters who did as much if not more to further civil rights and so on. Seems to me like his biggest claim to fame was his ability to talk himself up. He said he was the greatest and people believed him, that seems to be about it. Fair play that he sacrificed his career to oppose the Vietnam war but other than that I don't see much to recommend him.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Fred Mumford » Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:46 pm

Most of his losses came towards the end of his career, long after he should have called it a day. His losses to Frazier and Norton were avenged, he has a winning overall record against them. The years when he should have been at his peak were stripped from him, yet even so in his first (unbeaten) phase of his career he looked as incredible as any have ever done (the Cleveland Williams fight probably being the absolute pinnacle).

Once he came back, the speed and skills were eroded somewhat, but he still had miracles within him - it is difficult to overestimate how awesome and unstoppable George Foreman was considered to be in 1974, and then along came the Rumble in the Jungle.

Boxing historians consider the 1970s one of the very greatest decades for quality of heavyweight fighters, and an ageing Ali was still top of the tree for most of it, even way past his prime.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Jennifer Steadman » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:13 pm

I think it's much easier for musicians and actors to remain 'relevant' to younger generations as their work comes in a more widely available and distributable form (not sure that's been expressed well, but hopefully you get the gist?). Sportsmen and women of yore it's pretty hard to assess because you'd pretty much have to actively seek footage, and I don't care for the vast majority of sports, so...

My dad does fawn over him from time to time and I have asked on occasion what the fuss was all about, but his explanations haven't sounded even remotely worthy of justifying the accolade of GREATEST SPORTSMAN OF ALL TIME - it sounded more like received wisdom rather than anything substantiated: the one thing I do know about him (other than him getting angry at Brian Clough that time) is that he wasn't undefeated, whereas others were. Ali's also never come up in conversation with friends that I can think of, which adds to the feeling that you needed to be there to really understand (or care). He just feels pretty irrelevant to me.

Plus boxing is very obviously shit, so there's that too.
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Gavin Chipper » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:22 pm

Jennifer Steadman wrote:I think it's much easier for musicians and actors to remain 'relevant' to younger generations as their work comes in a more widely available and distributable form (not sure that's been expressed well, but hopefully you get the gist?). Sportsmen and women of yore it's pretty hard to assess because you'd pretty much have to actively seek footage, and I don't care for the vast majority of sports, so...

My dad does fawn over him from time to time and I have asked on occasion what the fuss was all about, but his explanations haven't sounded even remotely worthy of justifying the accolade of GREATEST SPORTSMAN OF ALL TIME - it sounded more like received wisdom rather than anything substantiated: the one thing I do know about him (other than him getting angry at Brian Clough that time) is that he wasn't undefeated, whereas others were. Ali's also never come up in conversation with friends that I can think of, which adds to the feeling that you needed to be there to really understand (or care). He just feels pretty irrelevant to me.

Plus boxing is very obviously shit, so there's that too.
I don't think that without all the political stuff and his ego etc., he would be considered as the greatest sportsman of all time by anyone ever. He'd even struggle to be the greatest boxer. Actually I seem to remember Richard Brittain posting pretty much the same thing once. Should I be worried?

But in terms of this thread, the fact that people do fawn over him means that he ends up pretty high up any list of deaths of the year, whether we like it or not.

If I was going to drop one of the nine for the quarter finals, you've probably all talked me round on Alan Rickman (especially on the Snape thing), and I think I'd ditch Victoria Wood over Paul Daniels.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:50 pm

Without going into excessive detail, the posts over the past few days have been a real eye-opener for me. Obviously I knew there were going to be generational differences on how we all perceive the impact and importance of people, but I didn't realise quite how pronounced they were.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Gavin Chipper » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:19 pm

JimBentley wrote:Without going into excessive detail, the posts over the past few days have been a real eye-opener for me. Obviously I knew there were going to be generational differences on how we all perceive the impact and importance of people, but I didn't realise quite how pronounced they were.
So who do you rank as the top eight deaths of the year so far?

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Jennifer Steadman » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:34 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote:Actually I seem to remember Richard Brittain posting pretty much the same thing once. Should I be worried?
Might not post my review of your book now.
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:12 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote:
JimBentley wrote:Without going into excessive detail, the posts over the past few days have been a real eye-opener for me. Obviously I knew there were going to be generational differences on how we all perceive the impact and importance of people, but I didn't realise quite how pronounced they were.
So who do you rank as the top eight deaths of the year so far?
I'm not going to because to be honest, I've come to find it all a bit depressing. I should stress that I'm hardly one to judge given some of the stuff I've posted in the past, but I think death has kind of caught up with me. Too many people I know have died lately and I'd prefer not to enter into the whole thing. Sorry.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by David Williams » Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:36 pm

Mark James wrote:
David Williams wrote: I'd suggest you would be interested to find out more about him. Ten minutes on Wikipedia? You mention his popularity, but that came rather later. He was massively unpopular in the USA at the time.
I just read his Wikipedia entry and I still don't get what's supposed to set him apart from anyone else? In terms of boxing don't other fighters have a better record than him? Marciano had 49 fights undefeated, Joe Louis had 66 wins to 3 losses while Ali had 56 wins and 5 losses. Then you have his nonsense religious beliefs, his support of black separatism, his womanizing, his insults towards fellow black fighters who did as much if not more to further civil rights and so on. Seems to me like his biggest claim to fame was his ability to talk himself up. He said he was the greatest and people believed him, that seems to be about it. Fair play that he sacrificed his career to oppose the Vietnam war but other than that I don't see much to recommend him.
Just to be clear, I'm not fawning over him. I thought he was a seriously nasty piece of work. But he was a great sportsman, and immensely charismatic and articulate as well. As well as his stand on the Vietnam war he was a major figure (not always positively by any means) in race relations and Islamophobia, all of which are still relevant today. Given the chance I'm sure he would have been an excellent Sheriff of Nottingham, and probably clever enough to drop Bruce Willis off that office block.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Gavin Chipper » Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:59 pm

Jennifer Steadman wrote:
Gavin Chipper wrote:Actually I seem to remember Richard Brittain posting pretty much the same thing once. Should I be worried?
Might not post my review of your book now.
What shop do you work in?

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Ian Volante » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:11 pm

I agree with that ranking above, definitely should resurrect Paul Daniels to solve the problem.
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Gavin Chipper » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:04 am

Andrew Sachs has tried to throw a spanner in the works, but he's not top eight material. Not this year. He should have waited a month.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Marc Meakin » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:00 pm

Probably not Octochamp material, but it was sad to hear the death of Greg Lake today.
He wrote the best Christmas song ever imho
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:56 pm

Marc Meakin wrote:Probably not Octochamp material, but it was sad to hear the death of Greg Lake today.
He wrote the best Christmas song ever imho
I agree, always been one of my favourite Xmas songs. It might sound schmaltzy but it has tremendously bleak lyrics and is always a welcome antidote to yer normal Xmas fare.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Gavin Chipper » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:30 pm

Ian McCaskill has died, and he's certainly a big name, but I don't think he makes the big eight. Also, Jamie Ilett-Jones (I think it was him) reminded me that Harper Lee (To Kill a Mockingbird) died this year as well. She's a difficult one to place because while famous, she's not exactly someone who we ever would have been reminded of on a daily or weekly basis because of repeated TV appearances. A bit like a lesser Fidel Castro. So while I'd have Fidel Castro in a top eight, I don't think I'd include Harper Lee.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Marc Meakin » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:08 pm

Walter Swinburn dead at 55 is a shock
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Conor » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:21 am

Leonard Cohen is another one who wasn't mentioned here.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:28 pm

For completeness, here's a few more potential candidates that I don't think have been mentioned yet. Whilst I can't see any of them usurping anyone in Gevin's list, I think some of them would make other people's lists, depending on their age and particular cultural leanings:

January 18 – Glenn Frey, American musician (b. 1948)
February 16 – Boutros Boutros-Ghali, Egyptian politician and diplomat, Secretary-General of the UN (b. 1922)
March 6 – Nancy Reagan, American actress, First Lady of the United States (b. 1921)
March 8 – George Martin, English record producer, composer, arranger and engineer (b. 1926)
March 24 – Garry Shandling, American actor and comedian (b. 1949)
March 24 – Johan Cruyff, Dutch footballer and manager (b. 1947)
August 15 – Dalian Atkinson, English footballer (b. 1968)
August 29 – Gene Wilder, American actor (b. 1933)
September 25 – Arnold Palmer, American golfer (b. 1929)
September 28 – Shimon Peres, 9th President and 8th Prime Minister of Israel, Nobel Peace Prize laureate (b. 1923)
September 8 – Prince Buster, Jamaican singer-songwriter and producer (b. 1938)
October 24 – Bobby Vee, American pop singer (b. 1943)
November 7 – Janet Reno, American lawyer (b. 1938)
December 8 – John Glenn, American aviator, astronaut and politician (b. 1921)

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Gavin Chipper » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:42 pm

JimBentley wrote:For completeness, here's a few more potential candidates that I don't think have been mentioned yet. Whilst I can't see any of them usurping anyone in Gevin's list, I think some of them would make other people's lists, depending on their age and particular cultural leanings:

January 18 – Glenn Frey, American musician (b. 1948)
February 16 – Boutros Boutros-Ghali, Egyptian politician and diplomat, Secretary-General of the UN (b. 1922)
March 6 – Nancy Reagan, American actress, First Lady of the United States (b. 1921)
March 8 – George Martin, English record producer, composer, arranger and engineer (b. 1926)
March 24 – Garry Shandling, American actor and comedian (b. 1949)
March 24 – Johan Cruyff, Dutch footballer and manager (b. 1947)
August 15 – Dalian Atkinson, English footballer (b. 1968)
August 29 – Gene Wilder, American actor (b. 1933)
September 25 – Arnold Palmer, American golfer (b. 1929)
September 28 – Shimon Peres, 9th President and 8th Prime Minister of Israel, Nobel Peace Prize laureate (b. 1923)
September 8 – Prince Buster, Jamaican singer-songwriter and producer (b. 1938)
October 24 – Bobby Vee, American pop singer (b. 1943)
November 7 – Janet Reno, American lawyer (b. 1938)
December 8 – John Glenn, American aviator, astronaut and politician (b. 1921)
That's a pretty decent list. Thanks, Jim I'm not sure how I never mentioned Boutros Boutros-Ghali. Obviously made famous by The Fast Show. ;)

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:59 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote:
JimBentley wrote:For completeness, here's a few more potential candidates...
That's a pretty decent list. Thanks, Jim I'm not sure how I never mentioned Boutros Boutros-Ghali. Obviously made famous by The Fast Show. ;)
No problem! As a result of a casual (and not entirely serious) comment I made on Facebook to Chris Butler, I've been looking at the last thirty years of notable deaths, so if you want any other years (1987 onwards) I can do those too.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Gavin Chipper » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:43 pm

JimBentley wrote:
Gavin Chipper wrote:
JimBentley wrote:For completeness, here's a few more potential candidates...
That's a pretty decent list. Thanks, Jim I'm not sure how I never mentioned Boutros Boutros-Ghali. Obviously made famous by The Fast Show. ;)
No problem! As a result of a casual (and not entirely serious) comment I made on Facebook to Chris Butler, I've been looking at the last thirty years of notable deaths, so if you want any other years (1987 onwards) I can do those too.
All of them please.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:56 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote:All of them please.
You might have to give me a couple of days. I got the base information from Wikipedia and it's all formatted differently for different years for some reason; as such it's taking a while to get it all shaped into a consistent format. Plus certain years are covered in far more detail than others, so I'm trying to cut them down so that they're vaguely comparable with one another (but this of course brings cultural bias into the equation, as I can only really go by my judgment for that). Also it's quite US-biased and there are a lot of omissions - i.e. people that have notability in the UK only who might be of relevance in UK-based lists - that I'm trying to add in as I go along. There's over 8,000 records at the moment (it'll probably end up at around 6,000 but as it needs looking at line-by-line, there's only so much I can do of it in one go before getting sick of the whole thing).

Once it's done though, it will be a triumph!

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Jon O'Neill » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:50 am

This would be great. You could rate each death by certain weighted criteria (e.g. UK notability, worldwide notability, surprisingness of death) and see if 2016 really is such a bad year, or if it's just confirmation bias/recency effect.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Jennifer Steadman » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:00 am

Obviously not the biggest deaths for us, but some big ones elsewhere in the world that spring to mind: king of Thailand, Islam Karimov (long-serving president/dictator of Uzbekistan, famed for allegedly boiling people alive), and Antonin Scalia.
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Jennifer Steadman » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:05 am

JimBentley wrote:
Gavin Chipper wrote:All of them please.
You might have to give me a couple of days. I got the base information from Wikipedia and it's all formatted differently for different years for some reason; as such it's taking a while to get it all shaped into a consistent format. Plus certain years are covered in far more detail than others, so I'm trying to cut them down so that they're vaguely comparable with one another (but this of course brings cultural bias into the equation, as I can only really go by my judgment for that). Also it's quite US-biased and there are a lot of omissions - i.e. people that have notability in the UK only who might be of relevance in UK-based lists - that I'm trying to add in as I go along. There's over 8,000 records at the moment (it'll probably end up at around 6,000 but as it needs looking at line-by-line, there's only so much I can do of it in one go before getting sick of the whole thing).

Once it's done though, it will be a triumph!
Even if you don't list everyone, it would be interesting to see a list of your top 8 'octochamps' by year (and any who just missed the cut).
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:05 pm

Jon O'Neill wrote:This would be great. You could rate each death by certain weighted criteria (e.g. UK notability, worldwide notability, surprisingness of death) and see if 2016 really is such a bad year, or if it's just confirmation bias/recency effect.
Jeez, you don't ask for much! In any case, I'm not best qualified to assign them all such criteria, as to be honest I'm not entirely familiar with all 6,500 - 7,000 odd of them.

So, I've had a quick skim through and chosen (what were to me) the most notable deaths, making sure there were at least 20 from each year (some years sailed through the target and ended up with more than 20). HOWEVER, in an attempt to reduce comments along the lines of "why have you chosen x/why haven't you chosen y/you're an idiot" I should say that these lists are highly subjective, as I could only really pick people that I could remember. As such, there's a lot of names from the worlds of pop music, television, film and science fiction writing and probably a lack of foreign politicians, public servants, engineers, classical composers, etc. etc. In addition, as I mentioned earlier, I'm sure there's still a lot of names missing (especially from the earlier years) simply because Wikipedia didn't mention them in the first place and I've forgotten them. ALSO, I can't guarantee that I was completely consistent in my choices (nobody's perfect).

Anyway, all that taken into account, I've cut the 7,000 down to 775. With 30 years considered, that gives an average (mean) of 25.87 per year.

Above average years:

2016 - 46
1994 - 39
2014 - 34

1993 - 33
1999 - 32
2003 - 30
1998 - 29
1997 - 28
2013 - 28
2004 - 27
2006 - 27
2015 - 27
1995 - 26
2001 - 26

Below average years:

1996 - 24
2002 - 24
2010 - 24
2012 - 24
1987 - 22
2000 - 22
1990 - 21
2007 - 21
2009 - 21
2011 - 21
1988 - 20
1989 - 20
1991 - 20
1992 - 20
2005 - 20
2008 - 20

Although it looks as though 2016 is the easy winner, I'm sure a lot of that's down to it being more recent and it's easier to remember these people dying.

So in conclusion: INCONCLUSIVE.

(I'll get onto the names from each year shortly, if there's still an interest).

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Gavin Chipper » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:44 pm

Jon O'Neill wrote:This would be great. You could rate each death by certain weighted criteria (e.g. UK notability, worldwide notability, surprisingness of death) and see if 2016 really is such a bad year, or if it's just confirmation bias/recency effect.
I think the first half of 2016 was definitely an outlier, and this was noticeable by the comparative death dearth since.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Marc Meakin » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:33 pm

There are always one or two biggies over the Christmas period.
In fact, hey Jim, could you do a monthly breakdown while your at it
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:49 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote:
Jon O'Neill wrote:This would be great. You could rate each death by certain weighted criteria (e.g. UK notability, worldwide notability, surprisingness of death) and see if 2016 really is such a bad year, or if it's just confirmation bias/recency effect.
I think the first half of 2016 was definitely an outlier, and this was noticeable by the comparative death dearth since.
You definitely have a point here; of my 46 from this year (so far) 27 are from January - June, with "only" 19 from July - December (although things look to be speeding up again). Oh, and in answer to Marc, although I've not got a detailed breakdown for all 30 years, there definitely tends to be more in winter months (call it November - February), which I guess is quite logical. Here's 2016 by date, anyway:

2016 (46)

January 10 – David Bowie, English singer, songwriter and actor (b. 1947)
January 14 – Alan Rickman, English actor and director (b. 1946)
January 18 – Glenn Frey, American musician (b. 1948)
January 26 – Black, British singer-songwriter (b. 1962)
January 26 – Abe Vigoda, American actor (b. 1921)
January 30 – Frank Finlay, British actor (b. 1926)
January 31 – Terry Wogan, Irish-British broadcaster (b. 1938)
February 16 – Boutros Boutros-Ghali, Egyptian politician and diplomat, Secretary-General of the UN (b. 1922)
February 19 – Umberto Eco, Italian writer and philosopher (b. 1932)
February 19 – Harper Lee, American writer (b. 1926)
March 6 – Nancy Reagan, American actress, First Lady of the United States (b. 1921)
March 8 – George Martin, English record producer, composer, arranger and engineer (b. 1926)
March 10 – Anita Brookner, British novelist (b. 1928)
March 10 – Keith Emerson, British musician (b. 1944)
March 14 – Peter Maxwell Davies, English composer and conductor (b. 1934)
March 17 – Paul Daniels, English magician (b. 1938)
March 24 – Johan Cruyff, Dutch footballer and manager (b. 1947)
March 24 – Garry Shandling, American actor and comedian (b. 1949)
March 31 – Ronnie Corbett, British comedian (b.1930)
April 6 – Merle Haggard, American country singer (b. 1937)
April 10 – Howard Marks, English drug smuggler and author (b. 1945)
April 20 – Victoria Wood, English comedian, actress, singer and songwriter, screenwriter and director, (19 May 1953 – 20 April 2016)
April 21 – Prince, American singer-songwriter and multi-instrumentalist (b. 1958)
April 24 – Billy Paul, American singer (b. 1934)
June 3 – Muhammad Ali, American boxer (b. 1942)
June 6 – Peter Shaffer, British playwright and screenwriter (b. 1926)
June 10 – Gordie Howe, Canadian ice hockey player (b. 1928)
June 28 – Scotty Moore, American guitarist (b. 1931)
August 13 – Kenny Baker, British actor (b. 1934)
August 15 – Dalian Atkinson, English footballer (b. 1968)
August 29 – Gene Wilder, American actor (b. 1933)
September 8 – Prince Buster, Jamaican singer-songwriter and producer (b. 1938)
September 16 – Edward Albee, American playwright (b. 1928)
September 28 – Shimon Peres, 9th President and 8th Prime Minister of Israel, Nobel Peace Prize laureate (b. 1923)
October 23 – Pete Burns, British singer (b. 1959)
October 23 – Jimmy Perry, English actor and scriptwriter, best known for devising/co-writing the BBC sitcom Dad's Army (b. 1923)
October 24 – Bobby Vee, American pop singer (b. 1943)
November 7 – Leonard Cohen, Canadian singer, songwriter and poet (b. 1934)
November 7 – Janet Reno, American lawyer (b. 1938)
November 13 – Leon Russell, American musician (b. 1942)
November 23 – Andrew Sachs, German-born British actor (b. 1930)
November 25 – Fidel Castro, 16th Prime Minister and 17th President of Cuba (b. 1926)
December 7 – Greg Lake, British musician (b. 1947)
December 8 – John Glenn, American aviator, astronaut and politician (b. 1921)
December 10 – Ian McCaskill, 78, British meteorologist and weatherman (b. 1938)
December 12 – Walter Swinburn, flat racing jockey and trainer (b. 1961)

I'll not spam the forum with all 776 in one go, don't worry!

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Gavin Chipper » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:36 pm

I don't think Jimmy Perry, co-creator of Dad's Army, has been mentioned.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:44 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote:I don't think Jimmy Perry, co-creator of Dad's Army, has been mentioned.
Fixed. Keep them coming, as mentioned I'm sure I've missed a lot. Given the points I noted earlier (and the general UK-based nature of this forum and thread), keep an eye out especially for British omissions.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Gavin Chipper » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:54 pm

JimBentley wrote:
Gavin Chipper wrote:I don't think Jimmy Perry, co-creator of Dad's Army, has been mentioned.
Fixed. Keep them coming, as mentioned I'm sure I've missed a lot. Given the points I noted earlier (and the general UK-based nature of this forum and thread), keep an eye out especially for British omissions.
I presume you've been through this thread, so it would only be people that haven't been mentioned at all?

Edit - Although I haven't seen Caroline Aherne on your list.

Edit 2 - And Vivean Gray (Mrs Mangel) and Ken Barrie (Postman Pat), if you consider them significant enough.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Gavin Chipper » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:59 pm

Peter Vaughan from Porridge.
Carla Lane from Bread.
David Gest (scraping the barrel a bit)
Frank Kelly (Father Jack)
Jean Alexander
Anton Yelchin
Denise Robertson
Tony Warren

Some of these aren't much to me but I did a quick Google and these came up.

Edit - Jack put Jean Alexander in while I was editing this!
Last edited by Gavin Chipper on Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Jack Worsley » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:03 pm

Good work, Jim. I'll add two more who I think should be included, although not in the top eight:

Jean Alexander: Actress best known for her portrayal of iconic character Hilda Ogden in Coronation Street. (14th October, b. 1926)

Carlos Alberto: Brazilian footballer, famous for his goal in the 1970 World Cup final. (25th October, b. 1944)

I was going to suggest Caroline Aherne as well but Gevin beat me to it.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Marc Meakin » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:24 pm

I was convinced Peter Vaughan had died years ago, ditto John Glenn.
Also, Jimmy Young and Ed Stewpot Stewart
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:53 pm

Cheers for the suggestions, folks, I'll add (some of them) to the list; not sure how I missed Jean Alexander, Caroline Aherne and Jimmy Young. I had Anton Yelchin, Denise Robertson, Peter Vaughan, David Gest, Carlos Alberto, Frank Kelly and Carla Lane but skipped them either because I didn't consider them significant enough or thought they'd been a bit forgotten, but given their mentions here, I'll probably add them. I'm drawing a line at Vivean Gray, Ken Barrie and Ed "Stewpot" Stewart though, there's only so far down the celebrity pecking order I want to go.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Thomas Carey » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:11 pm

JimBentley wrote: I've never been a fan of Death Pool games as a lot of my picks would be people I'd be sad to see die, but I suppose if you insist that I absolutely must:

- Muhammed Ali (congestive heart disease)
- Glen Campbell (pneumonia)
- Billy Connolly (complications of Alzheimer's)
- Fidel Castro (natural causes or shock reveal that he's actually been dead for years)
- George (Herbert Walker) Bush (natural causes)
- Zsa Zsa Gabor (plastic surgery failure)
- Ronnie Corbett (natural causes)
- Clive James (cancer)
- Ian Brady (suicide through starvation)
- Peter Sutcliffe (murdered)
Throwback to the Death Pool lists people made at the start of the year. 3/10 already on the Jimlist and potential for more before the year ends. Skimming through the lists above I can't see any others with a single correct one
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Jennifer Steadman » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:15 pm

I reckon either/both of the Queen and Prince Philip are going to croak next year.
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:18 pm

Thomas Carey wrote:
JimBentley wrote: I've never been a fan of Death Pool games as a lot of my picks would be people I'd be sad to see die, but I suppose if you insist that I absolutely must:

- Muhammed Ali (congestive heart disease)
- Glen Campbell (pneumonia)
- Billy Connolly (complications of Alzheimer's)
- Fidel Castro (natural causes or shock reveal that he's actually been dead for years)
- George (Herbert Walker) Bush (natural causes)
- Zsa Zsa Gabor (plastic surgery failure)
- Ronnie Corbett (natural causes)
- Clive James (cancer)
- Ian Brady (suicide through starvation)
- Peter Sutcliffe (murdered)
Throwback to the Death Pool lists people made at the start of the year. 3/10 already on the Jimlist and potential for more before the year ends. Skimming through the lists above I can't see any others with a single correct one
Haha, yeah. As part of my EXTENSIVE RESEARCH I read back through this thread and couldn't help noticing the same thing.

And I didn't kill them, honest.

[off-topic] While I'm here I couldn't help noticing this - possibly the greatest headline of the year - a few days ago:

Yorkshire Ripper Peter Sutcliffe and killer Ian Huntley bond in jail over love of BBC's Planet Earth II

I mean, where to start? Maybe this sort of thing this needs its own thread.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:00 pm

Tell me my 2015 omissions (this will get harder as we proceed, but 2015 should be recent enough in the memory for a few):

2015 (27)

January 21 – Leon Brittan, British politician (b. 1939)
January 25 – Demis Roussos, Greek singer (b. 1946)
February 27 – Leonard Nimoy, American actor (b. 1931)
March 12 – Terry Pratchett, English writer (b. 1948)
April 14 – Percy Sledge, American singer (b. 1940)
April 30 – Ben E. King, American singer (b. 1938)
May 2 – Ruth Rendell, British author (b. 1930)
May 14 – B.B. King, American singer-songwriter and guitarist (b. 1925)
June 1 – Charles Kennedy, British politician (b. 1959)
June 7 – Christopher Lee, English actor (b. 1922)
June 9 – James Last, German composer and big band leader (b. 1929)
June 25 – Patrick Macnee, English actor (b. 1922)
July 10 – Omar Sharif, Egyptian actor (b. 1932)
July 30 – Lynn Anderson, American country singer (b. 1947)
August 1 – Cilla Black, English singer and entertainer (b. 1943)
August 30 – Oliver Sacks, British-American neurologist and writer (b. 1933)
September 19 – Jackie Collins, British novelist (b. 1937)
October 3 – Denis Healey, British politician (b. 1917)
October 9 – Geoffrey Howe, British politician (b. 1926)
November 15 – Saeed Jaffrey, Indian-British actor (b. 1929)
November 18 – Jonah Lomu, New Zealand rugby union player (b. 1975)
December 19 – Jimmy Hill, English footballer and television presenter (b. 1928)
December 23 – Don Howe, English footballer (b. 1935)
December 28 – Guru Josh, British musician (b. 1964)
December 28 – Lemmy, British singer and bass guitarist (b. 1945)
December 29 – Pavel Srnícek, Czech footballer (b. 1968)
December 31 – Natalie Cole, American singer (b. 1950)

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Gavin Chipper » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:23 am

Jennifer Steadman wrote:I reckon either/both of the Queen and Prince Philip are going to croak next year.
I'm hoping that Prince Philip outlives the Queen. People have always said that Prince Philip is on his last legs, but he just goes on and on, so I'd like to see this happen. Of course, by official rules, as the spouse of the monarch, Prince Charles would be forced to take him on as a second wife.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Gavin Chipper » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:25 am

When I was discussing big deaths with one of my "real life" friends, he mentioned Jo Cox. But I'm not sure that really counts, because it was her death that made her famous rather than it being a case of a big name dying. Because you wouldn't include someone like Lee Rigby presumably (in whatever year that was). Although Jo Cox was an MP, so must have had some level of well-knownness.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:03 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote:When I was discussing big deaths with one of my "real life" friends, he mentioned Jo Cox. But I'm not sure that really counts, because it was her death that made her famous rather than it being a case of a big name dying. Because you wouldn't include someone like Lee Rigby presumably (in whatever year that was). Although Jo Cox was an MP, so must have had some level of well-knownness.
Yes, this is quite an interesting subset of people in itself (i.e. those principally known either because they were murdered, or because they committed murders). Here's a non-exhaustive list of some of the better-known ones:

1987

August 19 – Michael Ryan, English mass murderer (Hungerford massacre) (b. 1960)

1989

January 24 – Ted Bundy, American serial killer (executed) (b. 1946)

1993

April 22 – Stephen Lawrence, British murder victim (b. 1974)

1994

February 14 – Andrei Chikatilo, Russian serial killer (executed) (b. 1936)
May 10 – John Wayne Gacy, American serial killer (b. 1942)
June 12 – Nicole Brown Simpson, American murder victim (b. 1959)
November 28 – Jeffrey Dahmer, American serial killer (b. 1960)

1995

January 1 – Fred West, English serial killer (b. 1941)

1996

December 25 – JonBenét Ramsey, American beauty pageant queen and murder victim (b. 1990)

1998

October 10 – Marvin Gay, Sr., American Pentecostal minister and father/murderer of Marvin Gaye (born 1914)

1999

April 26 – Jill Dando, 37, British journalist and television presenter (Crimewatch), murder by gunshot

2000

October 21 – Reginald Kray, British murderer (born 1933).

2002

October 30 – Jam Master Jay, 37, DJ of Run DMC, murdered.
November 15 – Myra Hindley, 60, the Moors murderess.

2004

January 13 – Harold Shipman, British serial killer (b. 1946)

2008

November 10 – Arthur Shawcross, American serial killer, (b. 1945)

2012

June 17 – Rodney King, American criminal and victim of police brutality (b. 1965)

2013

May 22 – Lee Rigby, British Army soldier and murder victim (b. 1987)
June 7 – Richard Ramirez, American serial killer (b. 1960)

2016

June 16 – Jo Cox, British Labour Party politician and murder victim (b. 1974)

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Peter Mabey » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:09 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote:
Jennifer Steadman wrote:I reckon either/both of the Queen and Prince Philip are going to croak next year.
I'm hoping that Prince Philip outlives the Queen. People have always said that Prince Philip is on his last legs, but he just goes on and on, so I'd like to see this happen. Of course, by official rules, as the spouse of the monarch, Prince Charles would be forced to take him on as a second wife.
On the other hand, I'd guess that she could outlive her mother to become the first centenarian monarch (though I don't expect to see it as she's a month younger than I am.)

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Zarte Siempre » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:16 pm

JimBentley wrote:
Gavin Chipper wrote:When I was discussing big deaths with one of my "real life" friends, he mentioned Jo Cox. But I'm not sure that really counts, because it was her death that made her famous rather than it being a case of a big name dying. Because you wouldn't include someone like Lee Rigby presumably (in whatever year that was). Although Jo Cox was an MP, so must have had some level of well-knownness.
Yes, this is quite an interesting subset of people in itself (i.e. those principally known either because they were murdered, or because they committed murders).
I would counter that if someone's death makes them famous, then it'll be because of its noteworthiness and therefore become a bigger death than just a famous old person dying of being old.

Jo Cox was certainly the most haunting domestic death of the year for me.
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Marc Meakin » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:29 pm

When Ian Brady, surely the most hated serial Killer this country has ever seen, dies this month it will probably have more column inches than any other death this year
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Marc Meakin » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:24 pm

Ok 2017 Deadpool top ten
1. Bruce Forsythe
2.Donald Trump
3.Bobby Charlton
4.Pele
5.Keith Richards
6. Dame Maggie Smith
7. Frederick Forsyth
8. David Attenborough
9. Bill Oddie
10. Stevie Wonder

Only Donald trump not to die of natural causes unless you count lead poisoning from a bullet wound
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:13 pm

Marc Meakin wrote:Ok 2017 Deadpool top ten
1. Bruce Forsythe
2.Donald Trump
3.Bobby Charlton
4.Pele
5.Keith Richards
6. Dame Maggie Smith
7. Frederick Forsyth
8. David Attenborough
9. Bill Oddie
10. Stevie Wonder

Only Donald trump not to die of natural causes unless you count lead poisoning from a bullet wound
Intriguing list; not sure if it's intentional but you're missing a lot of obvious ones. I'm considering about fifty at the moment and it's going to be tough to reduce it to just ten. Also, I think I'll wait until December 31st because some of my choices are undoubtedly so prescient that they may not last until 2017.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Gavin Chipper » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:17 pm

JimBentley wrote:1993

April 22 – Stephen Lawrence, British murder victim (b. 1974)
Also, James Bulger - 12th February (b. 1990)

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Marc Meakin » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:53 pm

JimBentley wrote:
Marc Meakin wrote:Ok 2017 Deadpool top ten
1. Bruce Forsythe
2.Donald Trump
3.Bobby Charlton
4.Pele
5.Keith Richards
6. Dame Maggie Smith
7. Frederick Forsyth
8. David Attenborough
9. Bill Oddie
10. Stevie Wonder

Only Donald trump not to die of natural causes unless you count lead poisoning from a bullet wound
Intriguing list; not sure if it's intentional but you're missing a lot of obvious ones. I'm considering about fifty at the moment and it's going to be tough to reduce it to just ten. Also, I think I'll wait until December 31st because some of my choices are undoubtedly so prescient that they may not last until 2017.
I can see what you mean with the likes of Zsa Zsa Gabor, Roger Moore and Angela Landsbury in their nineties.
Mine was just based on a hunch.
I also have a wish list for 2017
Ian Huntley
Peter Sutcliffe
Ian Brady if he survives December
Sepp Blatter
Vladimir Putin
Rolf Harris
Dianne Abbott
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:09 pm

Marc Meakin wrote:
JimBentley wrote:Intriguing list; not sure if it's intentional but you're missing a lot of obvious ones.
I can see what you mean with the likes of Zsa Zsa Gabor, Roger Moore and Angela Landsbury in their nineties.
This might come back to bite me but I think Angela Lansbury is still in great health. She was acting (as the lead) in a London play as recently as last year - and possibly this year - so I can't see her going anytime soon.

There are plenty of other likely "they can't live forever" candidates (I don't think I'm giving a great deal of clues with this, everyone's going to consider very old people, aren't they? It's a logical starting point):

Olivia de Havilland (100)
Kirk Douglas (100)
Vera Lynn (99)
Zsa Zsa Gabor, as already mentioned (99)
Billy Graham (98)
Liz Smith (95)
Prince Philip (95)
Peter Sallis (95)
Denis Norden (94)
Henry Kissinger (93)
Murray Walker (93)

I'm going to have a couple of these but I think my list is mainly going to include others.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Marc Meakin » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:40 am

Very interesting article on the magazine section of the BBC website ( can't do links obvs )
Could have been written by Jim
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Gavin Chipper » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:42 pm

Marc Meakin wrote:Very interesting article on the magazine section of the BBC website ( can't do links obvs )
Why not?

Edit - This, I presume.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Marc Meakin » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:01 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote:
Marc Meakin wrote:Very interesting article on the magazine section of the BBC website ( can't do links obvs )
Why not?

Edit - This, I presume.
well why bother, when i can get a slave to do it :D
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Mark James » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:37 pm

If you go by Doug Stanhope's death pool scoring system there's no point picking people over 100 years old.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by JimBentley » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:24 pm

Mark James wrote:If you go by Doug Stanhope's death pool scoring system there's no point picking people over 100 years old.
I was looking at his site the other day and think his scoring system is shite, to be honest. If you're going to score like that something like (120 - age) would be far more appropriate. Also he allows you to go way, way down the notability ladder for your picks whereas I'd be a lot more rigorous.

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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Marc Meakin » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:59 pm

I do think you should get higher points based on youth
Although Amy Winehouse was no surprise.
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Marc Meakin » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:36 pm

The man who invented the Heimlich manouvre died today......I'm choked
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Re: Who would be the biggest deaths?

Post by Jennifer Steadman » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:01 pm

JimBentley wrote:
Marc Meakin wrote:
JimBentley wrote:Intriguing list; not sure if it's intentional but you're missing a lot of obvious ones.
I can see what you mean with the likes of Zsa Zsa Gabor, Roger Moore and Angela Landsbury in their nineties.
This might come back to bite me but I think Angela Lansbury is still in great health. She was acting (as the lead) in a London play as recently as last year - and possibly this year - so I can't see her going anytime soon.

There are plenty of other likely "they can't live forever" candidates (I don't think I'm giving a great deal of clues with this, everyone's going to consider very old people, aren't they? It's a logical starting point):

Olivia de Havilland (100)
Kirk Douglas (100)
Vera Lynn (99)
Zsa Zsa Gabor, as already mentioned (99)
Billy Graham (98)
Liz Smith (95)
Prince Philip (95)
Peter Sallis (95)
Denis Norden (94)
Henry Kissinger (93)
Murray Walker (93)

I'm going to have a couple of these but I think my list is mainly going to include others.
Zsa Zsa's croaked it, leaving a hole in lots of people's 2017 deathlists.
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