Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Discuss anything that happened in recent games. This is the place to post any words you got that beat Dictionary Corner, or numbers games that evaded Rachel.

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Jordan F
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Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Jordan F » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:35 am

This is it. Jen Steadman is on the verge of becoming many things. First and foremost is an octochamp. Secondly is the likely title of undisputed greatest female player in the 15 round era, if not of all time (The highest score by a woman in the 9 round era I believe is Lucy Roberts' 504, which I'm not sure how that'd scale compared to Jen). Thirdly is her seeding. A loss puts her at a solid number 3. A win with 113 or more will put her at number 2, and a win of 142 or more will put her ahead of Dylan Taylor and break the all time record (Tricky, but doable). If she scores 67 or more, this will be the 3rd member of the 900 club in the finals, which is handily the record (I don't think any other season had more than 1). Let's see how it all plays out.

Join Jack for the recap later.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Phyl Styles » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:41 am

The highest-scoring female octochamp over 15 rounds (up to now) looks to me like Grace Page with 829, the only female over 800 points - so that record has gone after Jen's seven games. Lucy Robert's total would crudely equate to 840 points in 15-rounders, but that figure will be massively surpassed today unless Jen disintegrates after 6 points. Hubristic Jen is certainly not, but James could go hullaballistic ...

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Jack Worsley » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:37 pm

ENORMOUS in round 7. Surely something better in round 8 too?

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by John Douglas » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:43 pm

VESICLE (8) R8

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Peter Mabey » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:44 pm

VESICLE, I think?

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Jack Worsley » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:05 pm

Congrats to Jen on a great run, very well deserved female records, even if you do get sick of hearing about them. It's going to be an exciting finals with you, Dylan, Glen and possibly Zarte if he makes it.

I thought your opponent played very well too and would certainly have been capable of winning a few on another week. In fact, you've had a fairly strong set of opponents overall.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Tony Atkins » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:12 pm

Well done to Jen Steadfast Steadman for scoring the same as her 7 round average to make the 8 round calculation earier!
Also well done to Ross for a good game.

Looks like the only other beater available is the last numbers which is supposed to be 99% difficult.
Which of the 4-large experts got it I wonder?
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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Jack Worsley » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:19 pm

Tony Atkins wrote: Looks like the only other beater available is the last numbers which is supposed to be 99% difficult.
Which of the 4-large experts got it I wonder?
Doesn't really count as I was way out of time but here's what I eventaully did:
(100x50x2-75)/25+7= 404. Got to 403 in the time using a similar method but didn't see that until much later. :oops:

I also completely disagree with the 99% difficulty rating as if you're a practised 4L player, that's the sort of method you look for.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Jojo Apollo » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:49 pm

Very well done, Jen, on a great set of games during your octorun. 8-)

The quarters are shaping up nicely. :)

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by James Robinson » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:59 pm

Phyl Styles wrote:James could go hullaballistic ...
I think you could hear me go well hullaballistic after Rachel mentioned all of Jen's achievements. :P :lol:

Was definitely a pleasure seeing all 8 of Jen's games in the comfort of Eddie Mac. ;) :P

Great to see Jen get to 952 points, she actually wanted to be kept in suspense after her 7th show, but she eventually crumbled and we told her the situation, but me, Eddie, Deeksy and AP were all there supporting her.

To make up for MOUSEBIRD yesterday, I was the only one to spot ENORMOUS in round 7. :P :geek: And AP eventually got the 404 just after the time too, which was great. 8-)

And I actually wish I mentioned that the week before I had a premonition that STEADFAST would be Jen's 8th conundrum............ (I only wish I told someone else before it was revealed, so I could try and get some money in a bet. :P )

Also in the nerd stakes (I was keeping on following this during the run), the only time Jen was not in the lead throughout her run was in the first round of today's show, so she was leading in 119 out of the 120 rounds, she was involved with :!: :!: I somehow doubt anyone's come close to that in their octorun :!: :!:

But, still, a super big well done to Jen for 8 games of pure pleasure that I enjoyed thoroughly. ;) :) :D :mrgreen: 8-) :geek: :ugeek:
CO:WY 2020 CANCELLED :cry: :cry: :cry:

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Graeme Cole » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:27 pm

Image

(I've been waiting to do that joke for years.)

Congratulations Jen, looking forward to seeing you in the finals. You're not just the best female player ever, you're one of the all-time greats, full stop. Today's challenger was probably the strongest of all your opponents, too.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Graeme Cole » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:29 pm

James Robinson wrote:Also in the nerd stakes (I was keeping on following this during the run), the only time Jen was not in the lead throughout her run was in the first round of today's show, so she was leading in 119 out of the 120 rounds, she was involved with :!: :!: I somehow doubt anyone's come close to that in their octorun :!: :!:
Interestingly, I was talking to Andy Platt about this just a few weeks ago. He was ahead after 118 of his 120 rounds, and that was the record until today.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Matt Morrison » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:01 pm

Haha that's awesome Graeme.
That's awesome Jen. (Not funny.)

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Jordan Leckonby » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:07 pm

probably more suited to the ask graeme thread but whose the octochamp who was behind in most rounds, i would see that as the greater achievement. it might be Ned P, cos he seemed to go behind a lot

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Jon Corby » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:14 am

Jordan Leckonby wrote:probably more suited to the ask graeme thread but whose the octochamp who was behind in most rounds, i would see that as the greater achievement. it might be Ned P, cos he seemed to go behind a lot
I'm not sure "greater" is the right word. It's "different", sure.
Graeme Cole wrote:Image
Brilliant :D
Jack Worsley wrote:(100x50x2-75)/25+7= 404. Got to 403 in the time using a similar method but didn't see that until much later.
I got the 403 (by adding the 75, and not using the 7 at all) in about 5 minutes, and quit fairly happy with that. Didn't see the minor refinement to get to 404 at all! (What actually happened was I spent 2 seconds looking at it, "2, yeah, make another 2, yeah, that's done it", fast-forwarded on to the end, watched open-mouthed as Jen unconfidently declared it not written down, was amazed when she fluffed it, waited for her opponent to show her how ridiculously easy it was, then realised when he did that it had all gone horribly wrong. So I paused and had another go. I reckon I'd have been declaring 407 in the regular 30 seconds...)

Anyway, brilliant run Jen, absolutely fantastic standard, there should be some cracking games in the finals. Did I see you getting a bit emotional at the end?

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Dave Preece » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:27 pm

Highest ever % of max???

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Jennifer Steadman » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:52 pm

Reporting from Budapest... Thanks everyone!
Graeme Cole wrote:Image
:lol:
Jon Corby wrote:I got the 403 (by adding the 75, and not using the 7 at all) in about 5 minutes, and quit fairly happy with that. Didn't see the minor refinement to get to 404 at all! (What actually happened was I spent 2 seconds looking at it, "2, yeah, make another 2, yeah, that's done it", fast-forwarded on to the end, watched open-mouthed as Jen unconfidently declared it not written down, was amazed when she fluffed it, waited for her opponent to show her how ridiculously easy it was, then realised when he did that it had all gone horribly wrong. So I paused and had another go. I reckon I'd have been declaring 407 in the regular 30 seconds...)

Anyway, brilliant run Jen, absolutely fantastic standard, there should be some cracking games in the finals. Did I see you getting a bit emotional at the end?
a) I definitely had 402 during the 30 seconds (50*7 + 75 - 25 + 2), but while running through different permutations of numbers I was convinced I'd got 404, but couldn't remember how I'd got there. Thought I'd try it anyway in case it came back to me - given that there's only one solution and it's not one I would ever have thought about, I must have miscalced however I 'did' it. Was a bit nervy because I knew I just needed one of the last 2 rounds to overtake Glen as 2nd seed, but as Ross was a really strong player (esp for a non-Apterite), I thought he might have got it. Didn't realise it was 99% difficulty at the time :D (And in response to Jack quibbling with Crossword Tools's difficulty rating - I think that if it takes you and Andy five minutes each to solve it [i.e. 10x longer than you get in the studio] when you're the two best 4L players ever, then that alone probably befits a 99% difficulty rating!)

b) Yes - the lovely bit at the end from Rachel made me even more emotional than achieving all the things I wanted to do on the show and more had done! I resolved not to cry until they'd stopped filming in case I was required for any retakes. As soon as the cameras stopped rolling I went over to Mark and cried all over him for about 5 minutes. #TeamMiyagiAndDanielSan
Dave Preece wrote:Highest ever % of max???
I believe I dropped fewer points (72) than anyone else has, if that counts :?

That second day of filming was the best day of my life, I loved every second of it [apart from those few minutes after game 7...] and was so glad that some of my favourite people could be there to watch it and celebrate afterwards :) Bloody excited about finals and being back on set - if not for actually playing such a high standard of opponent :lol: Roll on November! (But only once I've made up for being away from Apterous for 3 weeks with a looot of practice...)
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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Phyl Styles » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:46 pm

Phyl Styles wrote:
James could go hullaballistic ...

I think you could hear me go well hullaballistic after Rachel mentioned all of Jen's achievements. :P :lol:
Did I just invent a new word and get someone else to use it too?

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Matt Morrison » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:00 pm

Countdown tears of joy are very cute. I only remember you and Graeme (cool gang) but I'm sure there are others. Anybody?

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Clive Brooker » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:24 am

Jack Worsley wrote:I also completely disagree with the 99% difficulty rating as if you're a practised 4L player, that's the sort of method you look for.
Do you have examples of games which you think are harder?

No 99% game has ever been solved on the show, either by a contestant or an arithmetician with or without extra time. This one maintains that record, which suggests that WTP isn't too wide of the mark.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Jon O'Neill » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:38 am

I got that 404 one in about 5 seconds. It's intuitive if you know what to look for and what order to do it all in. The one that Rachel got in the last CoC final was much harder IMO:

50, 75, 100, 25, 9, 9. Target: 483.

This gets 88% on WTP.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Clive Brooker » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:09 am

Whether or not a game is solvable using something from a 4 largeist's bag of tricks doesn't make it inherently easier. A fairer test is to put yourself in the position of someone who is arithmetically competent but hasn't studied the numbers game in detail. The 483 example is pretty easy if you notice that is half of 966.

Also, for some reason WTP doesn't put any games in the range 90% - 98%, so 88% is nearer to 99% than it might appear.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Jon O'Neill » Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:45 pm

Clive Brooker wrote:Whether or not a game is solvable using something from a 4 largeist's bag of tricks doesn't make it inherently easier. A fairer test is to put yourself in the position of someone who is arithmetically competent but hasn't studied the numbers game in detail. The 483 example is pretty easy if you notice that is half of 966.

Also, for some reason WTP doesn't put any games in the range 90% - 98%, so 88% is nearer to 99% than it might appear.
Why should the difficulty be measured for someone who hasn't studied the numbers game in detail, as opposed to someone who has? I think each way of thinking about the difficulty has its merits, particularly in 4 from the top games.

The difficulty in Rachel's one there is trying 966/2 when there are a hundred other things to try before you consider it, whether you've studied four from the top or not (in fact, knowing lots of tricks that don't apply will probably hinder you in a case like this since you waste time checking.) The 404 solution was literally the first thing I thought of.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Martin Long » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:44 pm

For the 483 one, I wouldn't immediately think of 966/2. Instead I do 50*9 then find the 33 by (100*9-75)/25.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Jon O'Neill » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:44 pm

That's sneaky.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Graeme Cole » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:37 pm

Dave Preece wrote:Highest ever % of max???
I meant to look into this when I read this post a few days ago, but only got round to it now.

In a word, yes.

Jen got 952 out of 1024, which is 92.97%. This beats Dylan Taylor (974/1050 = 92.76%) who in turn beat Craig Beevers, who had held the record for years (907/987 = 91.89%).

However, there is the question of the new format. There are more numbers rounds now and you might say these are usually easier to max than letters rounds. So let's just look at letters...

Top ten 15-round octochamps ordered by percentage of max on letters in their heats. Jen's still top.

Code: Select all

                           LETTERS SCORE    MAX        %
   1 Jen Steadman                    597    627    95.22
   2 Dylan Taylor                    613    653    93.87
   3 Julian Fell                     650    701    92.72
   4 Jack Hurst                      655    717    91.35
   5 Edward McCullagh                602    659    91.35
   6 Craig Beevers                   609    667    91.30
   7 Giles Hutchings                 609    669    91.03
   8 Andy Platt                      620    682    90.91
   9 Kirk Bevins                     644    711    90.58
  10 Chris Davies                    626    693    90.33
It's a similar story if we also include conundrums. But we can do better than that. If we adapt new 15-rounder scores to the old 15-round format, by multiplying letters scores by 11/10 and multiplying numbers scores by 3/4, then we can include letters, numbers and conundrums for everyone. And the table of octotals ordered by percentage of max looks like this...

Code: Select all

                                 OCTOTAL       MAX        %
   1 Jen Steadman                 937.95   1007.45    93.10
   2 Dylan Taylor                 957.55   1036.05    92.42
   3 Craig Beevers                907       987       91.89
   4 Jack Hurst                   946      1031       91.76
   5 Edward McCullagh             896       979       91.52
   6 Julian Fell                  924      1015       91.03
   7 Giles Hutchings              954.40   1049.15    90.97
   8 Kirk Bevins                  925      1031       89.72
   9 David O'Donnell              880       995       88.44
  10 Chris Davies                 892      1013       88.06
Best octorun ever.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Gavin Chipper » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:12 am

What about maxes out of 120? Wasn't it decided that that was a better measure?

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Matt Morrison » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:10 am

I don't know how long we can go on without some kind of automated procedure that judges a particular spot's difficulty in terms of the selection. Building up stats like this would surely be beastly progress to judging octoruns, right?

Finding an easy max 8, something like RELATION or whatever, when it's going to be a super easy spot to most players (and always has at least one alternative) counts for the same in terms of % of max and total number of maxes than spotting some mental 8 which is very low probability and darrenic, and differentiating the two would be a huge advance, right?

Obviously some decent work would be required on a couple of counts, both specific to the word itself and specific to the selection it was found in, but that would be pretty exciting work, right?

Right.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Jon Corby » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:23 am

Right.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Dave Preece » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:52 pm

Defo right.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Gavin Chipper » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:28 pm

Definitely. You could argue that this sort of stuff averages out over a run, but if it's close between players, you could easily argue that I doesn't. I think I made up a system in the Ask Graeme thread that had this sort of thinking in mind. But these things are complicated to calculate.

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Adam Gillard » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:47 pm

Ross was excellent and was very unfortunate to come up against Jen (he was closer to Jen's score than Zarte was to Dylan's when there was a whole big uproar). A nice touch from Damian with the conundrum.

Jen, you are awesome. Congratulations on achieving octochampdom! If I've understood correctly, you never dipped below 12 maxes, which is astonishing! I've thoroughly enjoyed your run and this series is really hotting up now - are finals tickets up for grabs yet?
Mike Brown: "Round 12: T N R S A E I G U

C1: SIGNATURE (18) ["9; not written down"]
C2: SEATING (7)
Score: 108–16 (max 113)

Another niner for Adam and yet another century. Well done, that man."

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Re: Spoilers for Tuesday September 10th 2013 (S69 P45)

Post by Malcolm James » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:52 am

I don't think there would have been 'uproar' if Zarte had been the challenger. It was only because he already proven himself with 5 wins and an average of 115. He was made to look good, but not exceptional, by Dylan and how many times has a recapper or poster said that the challenger might have done well if they had not come up against such a strong champion. some of those might well have been of the calibre of Zarte.

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