Spoilers for Tuesday 29th January 2008

Craig Beevers · Post by **Craig Beevers** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:53 pm

Am I right in suspecting ALIMONY is (dubiously) only in as a mass noun?

ie no ALIMONIES in round whatever.

Joseph Bolas · Post by **Joseph Bolas** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:05 pm

Were the letters there for ARTEFACT?

Craig Beevers · Post by **Craig Beevers** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:07 pm

Yes ARTEFACT was there.

Conor · Post by **Conor** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:08 pm

Nice one Joseph.

Very nice David, 117 is an impressive score.

David O'Donnell · Post by **David O'Donnell** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:42 pm

It was a decent score but still missing too many maxima!! Ah well, I will study hard tonight and see if I can improve in tomorrow's show.

Julian Fell · Post by **Julian Fell** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:36 pm

Hmm not much reaction to today's game, given the excellent performance by David! Had you shaken off the "ennui" by now? Even if you weren't 100% yesterday you still got ECOTONE and HENNAED (ok you didn't risk the latter, but I would never even have seen it in a million years...) and a brilliant first numbers game. Today you were really excellent!

Missing too many maxima? By whose standards? The standards of the people on this group aren't representative of the population at large! I think Paul Howe once said a top octochamp should be looking to get 10 maxima a game on average - you David are comfortably ahead of that so far... out of the contestants we've seen to date that have a chance of being in the next CofC, I think only Craig has missed fewer maxima than you, and he could arguably be the greatest player of all time.

Re the point made by the master himself: ALIMONY is indeed a mass noun, although of course that doesn't necessarily mean ALIMONIES wouldn't be allowed (it's a great spot incidentally - I certainly didn't think of it). Any views on whether DC would allow it, if a contestant offered it? If it helps, the full definition of ALIMONY in ODE2r is: "A husband's (or wife's) provision for a spouse after separation or divorce; maintenance"...

David O'Donnell · Post by **David O'Donnell** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:52 pm

One of the contestants saw it, I have to confess that I didn't but I was going to try and be flashy with MONILIAE but then I had doubts over whether I had spelled it correctly. Young Mr Travers would probably offer LAMINOSE in that selection. I think we decided that it probably wouldn't be allowed and John Corby's program and Charlie Ream's seem to concur.

PS Cheers Julian and Conor.

Conor · Post by **Conor** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:03 pm

Actually, I missed quite a few things today. HEARKEN (fair enough, never heard of it), CONVICTS, SEMOLINA (!!!) and ARTEFACT. I don't think I had the first numbers IIRC, so you'd probably have beaten me.

David O'Donnell · Post by **David O'Donnell** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:05 pm

Conor wrote:Actually, I missed quite a few things today. HEARKEN (fair enough, never heard of it), CONVICTS, SEMOLINA (!!!) and ARTEFACT. I don't think I had the first numbers IIRC, so you'd probably have beaten me.

I don't like it when people over-use the emoticons and I probably shouldn't celebrate beating a 16 year old kid but sod it!

Conor · Post by **Conor** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:30 pm

David O'Donnell wrote:

I don't like it when people over-use the emoticons and I probably shouldn't celebrate beating a 16 year old kid but sod it!

'Kid'

Tomorrow...

David O'Donnell · Post by **David O'Donnell** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:38 pm

Gulp!

Sorry, I call people kid if they are under 25. Actually, I made an exception for Martin Smith (my opponent on Monday) because although he is 26 he looks about 17.

Joseph Bolas · Post by **Joseph Bolas** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:55 pm

David O'Donnell wrote:Gulp!

Sorry, I call people kid if they are under 25. Actually, I made an exception for Martin Smith (my opponent on Monday) because although he is 26 he looks about 17.

I'm curious to know, what do you call people aged 25 or over.

David O'Donnell · Post by **David O'Donnell** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:04 pm

Joseph Bolas wrote:
David O'Donnell wrote:Gulp!

Sorry, I call people kid if they are under 25. Actually, I made an exception for Martin Smith (my opponent on Monday) because although he is 26 he looks about 17.
I'm curious to know, what do you call people aged 25 or over.

Well, 'big lad' if they are small and 'wee lad' if they are big: isn't it obvious?

JimBentley · Post by **JimBentley** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:06 pm

David O'Donnell wrote:It was a decent score but still missing too many maxima!

But in your defence, you haven't missed a lot in the four games so far. Today's game might've seemed worse because the maximums you didn't get - HEARKEN, CONVICTS, METHANOL, ARTEFACT - are more everyday than ones you've missed in the previous three games (NACELLES, RUTILANT, PARURES, etc.) I'd be amazed if anyone takes you to a crucial conundrum before the finals, and even if they do, my money would be on you to get it.

Jon Corby · Post by **Jon Corby** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:08 pm

David O'Donnell wrote:I think we decided that it probably wouldn't be allowed and John Corby's program and Charlie Ream's seem to concur.

I erred on the side of caution with most mass nouns, so that doesn't really mean anything...

Why are you never on msn anymore Dhahvhihd?

Julian Fell · Post by **Julian Fell** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:30 pm

Lol... thanks to Conor's honesty, I might now also gloat that I "beat" him today as well (with the proviso that I wasn't actually playing him!). Sorry Conor, but you are that good, it's very rare that occasions like this come around!

But I think there is an important point to be made here (I think Damian once alluded to this as well): on this forum, and on the two or three mailing lists which preceded it, people have very rarely admitted when they DON'T get a word or numbers solution, though they're very happy to tell everyone about what they DID get... which gives a rather lopsided impression that nobody on here ever misses anything, and it must be a bit daunting / intimidating for newcomers. So well done Conor for bucking the trend and I hope more people follow suit!

Julian Fell · Post by **Julian Fell** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:34 pm

jimbentley wrote:I'd be amazed if anyone takes you to a crucial conundrum before the finals, and even if they do, my money would be on you to get it.

Seconded.

Jon Corby · Post by **Jon Corby** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:31 pm

Julian wrote:But I think there is an important point to be made here (I think Damian once alluded to this as well): on this forum, and on the two or three mailing lists which preceded it, people have very rarely admitted when they DON'T get a word or numbers solution, though they're very happy to tell everyone about what they DID get... which gives a rather lopsided impression that nobody on here ever misses anything, and it must be a bit daunting / intimidating for newcomers. So well done Conor for bucking the trend and I hope more people follow suit!

I always do, when I don't get the maximum available in one round, you will see a post from me to say so...

Gavin Chipper · Post by **Gavin Chipper** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:49 pm

Julian wrote:Re the point made by the master himself: ALIMONY is indeed a mass noun, although of course that doesn't necessarily mean ALIMONIES wouldn't be allowed (it's a great spot incidentally - I certainly didn't think of it). Any views on whether DC would allow it, if a contestant offered it? If it helps, the full definition of ALIMONY in ODE2r is: "A husband's (or wife's) provision for a spouse after separation or divorce; maintenance"...

I know my NODE is out of date, but I think the principle still applies. Mass nouns are obviously a dodgy issue. But to quote from my NODE:

Occasionally, a mass noun may be used in the plural, with the sense of 'different types of X' or 'portions of X', as in the panel tasted a range of bacons. Such uses are recorded in the New Oxford Dictionary of English only when they are particularly important.

By "recorded" they presumably mean:

[count noun]: used to mark those nouns (and senses of nouns) which can take a plural and can be used with 'a', where this is in contrast with an already stated mass noun. By default, in this dictionary all nouns are to be regarded as count nouns unless otherwise stated.

So obviously even if a word indicated to be a mass noun is not also recorded as a count noun, it might still be "a word", but just not important enough to mention, which is where the confusion of the mass noun rule comes from.

However, there are still clear-cut cases, as I am about to demonstrate. Here's another quote from the old NODE.

Plurals formed by adding -s (or -es when they end in -s, -x, -z, -sh, or soft -ch) are regarded as regular and are not shown.

Other plural forms are given in the dictionary, notably for:

[...]

nouns ending in -y, e.g. fly -> flies

Obviously ALIMONY ends in a Y, so this could be a way of finding an answer. But would the NODE only lists the plurals in these cases if the count noun version of the word is "important enough" to be specified? Well, let's look at a couple of examples:

BRANDY - mass noun, not listed as count noun but plural given as BRANDIES.

So, yes, the NODE will give a plural if it deems it to be a word, regardless of its "importance". So now the acid test.

ALIMONY - mass noun, not listed as count noun, no plural given.

So no, ALIMONIES should not be allowed, as long as the current dictionary is similar to my NODE in this respect. There was a similar discussion about PENURIES on the gevincountdown group, which was allowed despite no plural being listed.

The same acid test exists for words ending in -I and -O.

James Hurrell · Post by **James Hurrell** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:52 pm

Congratulations David. Statistically your best game, though weirdly the first I have beaten you in having lost the other 3 narrowly. I say I 'beat' you, I was 100-94 behind before the conundrum and saw it instantly, but as you got it in 1 second I cannot say for sure that I would have pressed first. Also I am at home so maybe benefit of doubt should be with you.....oh bugger, just talked myself out of the win.

Paul Howe · Post by **Paul Howe** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:56 pm

Julian wrote: Missing too many maxima? By whose standards? The standards of the people on this group aren't representative of the population at large! I think Paul Howe once said a top octochamp should be looking to get 10 maxima a game on average

Well, I'll take your word for it, as I can't remember ever saying this. However, having managed an average of about 10 maximums in my octochamp run, it's a sentiment I can definitely agree with

James Hurrell · Post by **James Hurrell** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:58 pm

Also, SEMOLINA today, TIRAMISU in a previous game....what can we expect tomorrow?? I'll be looking out for the likes of YOGHURT to make an appearance in a nasty letters selection.

David O'Donnell · Post by **David O'Donnell** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:28 am

Yeah, and oddly they are two desserts I cannot abide.

David O'Donnell · Post by **David O'Donnell** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:45 am

James Hurrell wrote:Congratulations David. Statistically your best game, though weirdly the first I have beaten you in having lost the other 3 narrowly. I say I 'beat' you, I was 100-94 behind before the conundrum and saw it instantly, but as you got it in 1 second I cannot say for sure that I would have pressed first. Also I am at home so maybe benefit of doubt should be with you.....oh bugger, just talked myself out of the win.

Nah! You beat me fair and square James, I did take a moment of hesitation and I was always a lot slower than you at the conundrums at home. Statistically a very good performance but actually I would rate it as a good/decent performance. Scoring in every round helped with the old stats and got me into the top ten - wahey!

James Hurrell · Post by **James Hurrell** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:01 pm

David - it's been mentioned many times already but you really seem to under sell yourself. Admittedly if it were the other way around it would be worse, but you are seriously good and I fully expect you to be well into the 800's when I am sure you complete your 8 games. I think Craig is perhaps a little better as he missed almost nothing (and in most cases had the beaters written down and didn't risk them) but with words like TIRAMISU, ECOTONE, HEMIOLA and SUNBATHE you have to be considered up there. Plus your numbers are superb, though I can tell you are waiting to display 'proper' use of the the 4 from the top. I am waiting for you to have a target around 925-950.

Good luck for your last 4 games.

David O'Donnell · Post by **David O'Donnell** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:31 pm

Obviously I cannot give the game away but I was hoping to show off like Jono. Though, unlike Jono, I don't know if I would have the guts to take the 'big' route when there is an obvious 'small' route. As for under-selling myself it's probably just that I am under Craig's shadow as far as performances go but then I didn't realistically think that I would emulate his performance anyway. My family and friends are mega-impressed since they don't really have a clue about the techniques that can assist a would-be player. Just while I am that point has anyone noticed that when they rely on techniques for finding words their ability to spot pure (un-inflected) words goes downhill?

Jon Corby · Post by **Jon Corby** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:06 pm

David O'Donnell wrote:Just while I am that point has anyone noticed that when they rely on techniques for finding words their ability to spot pure (un-inflected) words goes downhill?

Totally agree mate. I spend so much time now looking for patterns, looking for words that I know I can add other stuff to, etc etc, that I often miss "pure" words that I feel would have got previously. It's a concern.

Julian Fell · Post by **Julian Fell** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:01 pm

Absolutely David, that's the challenge for a top Countdowner - to learn the patterns so that you're more consistent with your word-spotting and don't miss any 'obvious' -ING, -IEST, -IER etc. words, whilst also retaining the 'pure' ability to spot words which don't follow any pattern, like, er... SUNBATHE... or TIRAMISU... or ORISONS... hmmm

Corby I detect a bit of sarcasm from you - of course I'm not saying everybody should make an individual post every time they miss a maximum in every game, I'm just saying that once in a while, people who post loads of winners/beaters could also say e.g. "I did miss x and y in today's game though", just as part of a larger post. Would make everybody seem a bit more human.

Gevin/Gavin: your post is logical enough but you've answered your own question/point - DC have allowed the likes of PENURIES before so they're not going to be too dogmatic about these things. By the way that is NOT your cue to start bashing DC again as you have done so many times in the past...

Jon Corby · Post by **Jon Corby** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:35 pm

Julian wrote:Corby I detect a bit of sarcasm from you - of course I'm not saying everybody should make an individual post every time they miss a maximum in every game

Lol, no I was being silly, but not in that way. I was trying to imply that I never ever miss any maxima, hence why you won't have seen any such post from me

It's probably best just to ignore me from now on...

Julian Fell · Post by **Julian Fell** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:03 pm

Ah right. I seem to be good at misinterpreting your posts Jon don't I? Oh well...

Jon Corby · Post by **Jon Corby** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:19 pm

Julian wrote:Ah right. I seem to be good at misinterpreting your posts Jon don't I? Oh well...

Heh, yeah, I had noticed that theme developing too!

It's not just you mate, if it makes you feel any better. I was actually called an "unfunny bigoted twat" by somebody on the mailing list once

Dinos Sfyris · Post by **Dinos Sfyris** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:35 am

Corby wrote:
Julian wrote:Ah right. I seem to be good at misinterpreting your posts Jon don't I? Oh well...
Heh, yeah, I had noticed that theme developing too!

It's not just you mate, if it makes you feel any better. I was actually called an "unfunny bigoted twat" by somebody on the mailing list once

Thats outrageous. You're not unfunny

Charlie Reams · Post by **Charlie Reams** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:37 am

Hey they were two thirds right.

EDIT: Dinos spoilt my joke

Chris Corby · Post by **Chris Corby** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:43 pm

Corby wrote:
Julian wrote:Ah right. I seem to be good at misinterpreting your posts Jon don't I? Oh well...
Heh, yeah, I had noticed that theme developing too!

It's not just you mate, if it makes you feel any better. I was actually called an "unfunny bigoted twat" by somebody on the mailing list once

Yes, sorry about that son

but you are

Charlie Reams · Post by **Charlie Reams** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:50 pm

Do you really live in Hnampshire?

David O'Donnell · Post by **David O'Donnell** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:05 pm

Classic! Good to see Corby junior and Corby senior share the same sense of humour.

Chris Corby · Post by **Chris Corby** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:50 pm

Charlie Reams wrote:Do you really live in Hnampshire?

Now amended..

My wireless keyboard keeps putting in a phantom 'n' to words, for instance

'Soo' becomes 'Soon'

'Conor' becomes 'Connor'

and 'cuts' becomes

the Government

Howard Somerset · Post by **Howard Somerset** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:26 pm

I've just been watching Tuesday's game. I realise that my hearing is not quite up to the standard that it once was, but I'm convinced that in round 13, the challenger offered the unavailable word FETTER, rather than FATTER, and that Des repeated the word FETTER. Whether I'm right or not, it makes no difference to the scores, as David came up with a longer word.

Well done, David on a magnificent performance so far. I'm now looking forward to watching your fifth game, and, hopefully, a some more.

Now back to the recording to see what you make of round 14.

Gavin Chipper · Post by **Gavin Chipper** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:30 pm

Julian wrote:Gevin/Gavin: your post is logical enough but you've answered your own question/point - DC have allowed the likes of PENURIES before so they're not going to be too dogmatic about these things. By the way that is NOT your cue to start bashing DC again as you have done so many times in the past...

Well, they seem to have changed their minds about OPALINES.

Martin Smith · Post by **Martin Smith** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:09 pm

David O'Donnell wrote:Gulp!

Sorry, I call people kid if they are under 25. Actually, I made an exception for Martin Smith (my opponent on Monday) because although he is 26 he looks about 17.

Yea, he was surprised when I started talking about going for a pint afterwards. And being from Eastbourne and doing charity work makes me sound more like 62 than 26...

Charlie Reams · Post by **Charlie Reams** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:48 pm

Maybe you should join the Nick Wainwright School of Youthfulness.

David O'Donnell · Post by **David O'Donnell** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:17 pm

I was surprised Martin. So was my brother and girlfriend when I told them your age. In fact only my mother guessed your age bang on: I suppose having three sons who have now passed the 26 mark makes it easier for her to judge.

As for Howard's comment about FETTER/FATTER it really just is Brian's Scottish accent. He definitely meant FATTER but it sounds so much like FETTER that I am not surprised Des was confused. I had been hanging out with him and chatting to him before the game so I knew he was saying FATTER; quite a few of my Scottish relatives have similar accents.

David O'Donnell · Post by **David O'Donnell** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:59 pm

Whoops! Just realised I have made a cock-up here, you were talking about Tuesday's game and as if the thread title doesn't give it away!