"Frustrated by the programme marginalising her sexuality."

[Michael Wallace]

Another POOFTER article.

In particular:

"Kate says that while she enjoyed her time on countdown ... she was frustrated by what she saw as the programme marginalising her sexuality."

And from Kate in the comments:

"I hoped an interview on a sympathetic website would glean at bit of sympathy and support compared to the downright hostility and agression [sic] and homophobia I’ve encountered on the countdown forums"

Kate hasn't been around since Thursday, apparently, but I am a little surprised by these remarks. I didn't see many of her shows, so don't know about how they "galloped through the introduction about my civil partnership" - but do they spend particularly long discussing contestants' marriages?

I'm also concerned about these comments made about the forums. I agree the place can be a bit hostile and aggressive (usually when people are disagreeing with other people, but that's just how the Internet works). But I'm not really sure where this homophobia allegation is coming from (I would've thought it doesn't take a genius to work out that I'm not being serious when I'm doing it, and not just because I'm a gayer (which someone new might not realise), but also because when I do I go for the "this is so ridiculously extreme that no-one would think anyone would be being serious" angle).

Also, the comments sections make me lol.

[Ben Wilson]

Frankly I'm beginning to think people want to see hostility towards their minority. 'Downright homophobia'? WTF?

[Roxanne]

When has contestant ever talked about their marriage? If they spent ages discussing how she was married to a woman then that would indicate that it's something abnormal. It says in that article that she wants to normalise gay marriage, and surely treating it like it's not an issue is the best way to do it.

[Matt Morrison]

Haha thanks for that Michael. As an aside, I had no idea you were gay until it was mentioned in a thread a week or two ago (shortly before your subtitle became Poofter!) - hardly relevant but thought I'd mention it as you asked, but then I've not had much direct communication with you on here anyway.

Effie: "an out gay person endorsing a homophobic slur. on national tv. not good."
Incredible to think that just saying a word means you are endorsing its most offensive use. Even more ridiculous in the context of trying to gain points on a gameshow.
To quote a song I was listening to yesterday, "It's not the words you say, it's where it comes from". As a homophobic slur, then yes it's a homophobic slur. As a means to get 7 points, it's just a grouped selection of letters.

Jay: "hiya..i watched this show, i thought you were straight, cause u used a homophopic word"
Fantastic! Imagine if that rule applied to saying "nigga" and being white!

[Charlie Reams]

I've commented on the article, so I won't repeat myself here.

[Matt Morrison]

Another important point of note: there's a difference between being mean to someone who is gay, and being homophobic.
Probably worth remembering as Kate might be able to claim one of this forum, but not the other.

[Richard Brittain]

fcking gays

[Charlie Reams]

fcking gays

Here's an example of how the moderators of this forum respond to actual homophobic abuse.

*hits RB with the ban hammer*

[Ben Wilson]

Haha thanks for that Michael. As an aside, I had no idea you were gay until it was mentioned in a thread a week or two ago (shortly before your subtitle became Poofter!) - hardly relevant but thought I'd mention it as you asked, but then I've not had much direct communication with you on here anyway.

Effie: "an out gay person endorsing a homophobic slur. on national tv. not good."
Incredible to think that just saying a word means you are endorsing its most offensive use. Even more ridiculous in the context of trying to gain points on a gameshow.
To quote a song I was listening to yesterday, "It's not the words you say, it's where it comes from". As a homophobic slur, then yes it's a homophobic slur. As a means to get 7 points, it's just a grouped selection of letters.

Jay: "hiya..i watched this show, i thought you were straight, cause u used a homophopic word"
Fantastic! Imagine if that rule applied to saying "nigga" and being white!

The first word I ever declared on Countdown was RAPIST. That doesn't mean I endorse rape.

Charlie famously offered WANKERS, though I'll leave him to clarify his position on the matter.

[Charlie Reams]

Are you saying Kate Richardson doesn't endorse poofters? OMG HOMOPHOBIA!

[Ben Hunter]

Gentle afternoon gameshow Countdown was stunned last week when a mischievous contestant made the 7-letter word ‘poofter’ – a homophobic insult... Countdown host Jeff Stelling looked shocked, repeated the word and then asked Susie Dent in the Dictionary Corner to confirm that it was a word in the dictionary. The other contestant found the word ‘proofed’, to the obvious relief of both Stelling and Dent.

Although this is a fairly accurate description of the scandal, I'm extremely disappointed at the omission of several other important incidents that accompanied that historic moment, such as John Sergeant’s monocle falling off, the Channel 4 test card appearing for a brief moment, and Susie Dent licking her lips in sheer delight as her homophobia became legitimised by the inclusion of 'poofter' in the Oxford Dictionary. These incidents simply must be reported lest I lose all faith in Lesbilicious' journalistic credibility forever.

[Michael Wallace]

Although this is a fairly accurate description of the scandal, I'm extremely disappointed at the omission of several other important incidents that accompanied that historic moment, such as John Sergeant’s monocle falling off, the Channel 4 test card appearing for a brief moment, and Susie Dent licking her lips in sheer delight as her homophobia became legitimised by the inclusion of 'poofter' in the Oxford Dictionary. These incidents simply must be reported lest I lose all faith in Lesbilicious' journalistic credibility forever.

Superb.

Also, I like the way the 'article' describes her as an "out lesbian".

[Jason Larsen]

That's right, Michael!

[Ian Fitzpatrick]

I'm surprised Kate hasn't been back on here, I thought she said she was off to research into queers and we should expect to read her discoveries accordingly.

Quote from the article:
"To me it is important to be out, my sexuality is part of who I am. It’s not something that I’m embarrassed about or shy about. I don’t want to go on about it all the time,..."

oh, right!

[Phil Reynolds]

I didn't see many of [Kate's] shows, so don't know about how they "galloped through the introduction about my civil partnership" - but do they spend particularly long discussing contestants' marriages?

No. Both Charlie and I commented here at the time about how refreshing it was to hear Jeff say casually in her introduction, "Kate lives with her partner Sarah" - i.e. the matter was dealt with in exactly the same way as it would have been if it had been a contestant's husband/wife.

But I'm not really sure where this homophobia allegation is coming from

No, me neither. About the only remark I can recall that could vaguely be deemed homophobic was Roxanne's about a man's shirt worn by "what I could just about recognise as a woman", and even that was a slur more on Kate's personal grooming than on her sexuality. Kate did seem to get very uptight when she was asked, quite reasonably I thought, to elucidate when her posts resorted to self-invented words ("sub-homophobia") or when it was suggested that some punctuation would improve their intelligibility. I'm not sure how arguing with someone about their communication skills constitutes an attack on their sexuality though.

[Martin Gardner]

I don't remember a single homophobic comment, there were comments on the word POOFTER, which like I say, I don't find particularly offensive myself, but then I'm not gay. You know what the papers are like - never let the facts stand in the way of a good story. I suppose there aren't any homophobic comments from this forum quoted directly in the article? No I didn't think so...

[Martin Gardner]

I don't remember a single homophobic comment, there were comments on the word POOFTER, which like I say, I don't find particularly offensive myself, but then I'm not gay. You know what the papers are like - never let the facts stand in the way of a good story. I suppose there aren't any homophobic comments from this forum quoted directly in the article? No I didn't think so...

Ok just read it now, it is interesting. So the "homophobic comments" section is actually posted by Kate in the comments section, not the article itself. Here's a good quote from the article.

“So whilst the word is derogatory if used in a particular context (ie ‘so and so is a right poofter’), on Countdown the word is without any particular context, as it’s generated by a contestant who’s spotted that word amongst a randomly selected group of letters.”

This is the point I was trying to make. If I spot the nine-letter word TERRORISM does it mean I actually support it, or maybe, more likely, I just want the 18 points!

[Matt Morrison]

I suppose there aren't any homophobic comments from this forum quoted directly in the article? No I didn't think so...

Read the article Martin. The bit about homophobia on the forums is nothing to do with the article per se, it comes from one of Kate's own comments at the bottom of the article:
"the downright hostility and agression (sic) and homophobia I’ve encountered on the countdown forums"

[Matt Morrison]

now I look silly! but yeah... you got it.

I really hope Kate comes back here to explain herself but I'd imagine she'll feel fairly unwanted here now. Of her own doing, obviously.

[Hannah O]

Firstly, from what I've seen so far in these forums, it doesn't matter what creed, colour, religion or preference you have- you will get insulted
But seriously, I know I'm not necessarily qualified to comment on this, not having seen Kate's show and having been a member of here for less than a month, but as Ben said, Countdown is a letters and numbers game. All the stigma and controversy associated with certain words goes out the window when you're just trying to make the biggest word. Sure, there are sometimes alternatives to a derogatory word, but the way the letters are drawn in Countdown means that you can't always get by with your lexical flourishes, your REDACTIONs and DOXASTICs. So, if it's the longest word and happens to have negative connotations, there isn't much you can do if you want to succeed!

[George Jenkins]

now I look silly! but yeah... you got it.

I really hope Kate comes back here to explain herself but I'd imagine she'll feel fairly unwanted here now. Of her own doing, obviously.

It's a pity that Homosexuals have to advertise their sexuality so much. It seems to me that they protest too much in an effort to be accepted, and kate was no exception. I believe that she wrote on these pages that she was going to concentrate on the subject.

I've known several hundred men in my lifetime in the Railway service, including several Homosexuals. We knew whom they were, because most of them had partners, but to us, they were our workmates, and a good lot of blokes they were too. I have never heard a word said against them, mainly because nobody was interested. Nowadays the subject seems to forced on us, and it seems that we must take sides. We also had the messy room braggarts whom had to bore us with their sexual exploits with different women. most of them finished up being divorced, so it seems that they were supermen everywhere except in their own beds.

I remember when Homosexuality was a prison offence if a person was caught soliciting in public. One such was Lord Beaulieu whom was caught in London soliciting young R.A.F. men.

Because Sexuality is much written about in these Posts, I feel that I should advertise my own sexual leanings. I married the first girl I took out, I had my first sexual experience on my Wedding night. I spent the rest of my life making up for what I had been missing. Now and again when I catch my Wife Olive, on the landing or in the kitchen I still like to have a cuddle. And she still says, "not on your life Mate, you've had more than your share"

[Martin Gardner]

Firstly, from what I've seen so far in these forums, it doesn't matter what creed, colour, religion or preference you have- you will get insulted!

Yeah I think that's because there's a big male bias on this forum. If it were a mainly female forum, that wouldn't happen.

[JackHurst]

I could understand there being discussion if she had to solve the crucial conumdrum HOOPBHOME, because this would be something the production staff had delibeately included. Countdown has run for over 25 years, there must have been in the region of 30,000 letters rounds played, so its inevitable that such a word will have been used by contestants now and then, nothing worth writing an article under usual circumstances imo. The circumstances in this instance however, make it quite interesting.

I might be wrong, but it seems to me as if Kate wanted to use the show as a means of promoting her thoughts and opinions (Im not saying this was her main goal. She was clearly on the show because she wanted to do well, and she was quite good.). Contestants are there to rearrange letters, dictionary corner guests are there to entertain and create discussion if they wish.

[Charlie Reams]

It's a pity that Homosexuals have to advertise their sexuality so much.

It's a shame you started an otherwise sensible post with such a generalisation. Obviously the gays you hear about are the ones that advertise it, that's tautological. But most of them really don't go on about it, except in the exact same circumstances that anyone would. That is, in fact, exactly the way in which Jeff mentioned Kate's partner on the show, which is why her comment about "marginalisation" is, and I'll put this delicately, fucking stupid.

I might be wrong, but it seems to me as if Kate wanted to use the show as a means of promoting her thoughts and opinions (Im not saying this was her main goal. She was clearly on the show because she wanted to do well, and she was quite good.). Contestants are there to rearrange letters, dictionary corner guests are there to entertain and create discussion if they wish.

IAWTP.

[Matt Morrison]

I might be wrong, but it seems to me as if Kate wanted to use the show as a means of promoting her thoughts and opinions (Im not saying this was her main goal. She was clearly on the show because she wanted to do well, and she was quite good.). Contestants are there to rearrange letters, dictionary corner guests are there to entertain and create discussion if they wish.

IAWTP.

For anyone else who, like me, doesn't talk in Internet abbreviations, IAWTP means "I Agree With This Post".
Posted as I'm sure that'll save plenty of people a few clicks finding out.

To summarise, IAWTPs.

[Phil Reynolds]

It's a pity that Homosexuals have to advertise their sexuality so much.

Charlie has already addressed this point more succinctly that I could have, so I'll move on. George, I wonder if you can see the contrast between your own experience, which you expressed thus:

I've known several hundred men in my lifetime in the Railway service, including several Homosexuals. We knew whom they were, because most of them had partners, but to us, they were our workmates, and a good lot of blokes they were too.

...and the wider social outlook of the time which you refer to here:

I remember when Homosexuality was a prison offence if a person was caught soliciting in public. One such was Lord Beaulieu whom was caught in London soliciting young R.A.F. men.

If everyone was like you, George, and accepted homosexuals on equal terms, there would be no problem. But Lord Beaulieu wasn't "advertising his sexuality", "protesting" or seeking "acceptance" when he was arrested - he was simply trying to meet some like-minded individuals for a bit of bedroom fun. Oscar Wilde was sentenced to two years' hard labour. Alan Turing, who invented computer science and arguably contributed more than any other individual to the Allied victory in World War 2, was chemically castrated and subsequently committed suicide because of society's refusal to accept him on equal terms as you did with your colleagues. I myself am barely more than half your age, but I was born in a time when homosexuality was totally illegal; and, even though it was partially decriminalised in 1967, all sexual liaisons I had before I was 21 (and many of those afterwards) were offences punishable by up to five years in prison. So, when we lived in a society that treated some of its citizens so unfairly, you might begin to see why some of us became sufficiently angered about it to protest. If we hadn't, do you think society would have become more tolerant of its own accord?

Today there is a lot less for gay people to get hot under the collar about. The legal status of homosexuals is mostly on a par with that of heterosexuals. But homophobic prejudice, bullying and injustice still exist in certain quarters, and some of us will still stand up to it if we have to. (And yes, there will always be a strident few who complain of it where it doesn't in fact exist, but what can you do?!)

[George Jenkins]

It's a pity that Homosexuals have to advertise their sexuality so much.

It's a shame you started an otherwise sensible post with such a generalisation. Obviously the gays you hear about are the ones that advertise it, that's tautological. But most of them really don't go on about it, except in the exact same circumstances that anyone would. That is, in fact, exactly the way in which Jeff mentioned Kate's partner on the show, which is why her comment about "marginalisation" is, and I'll put this delicately, fucking stupid.

I might be wrong, but it seems to me as if Kate wanted to use the show as a means of promoting her thoughts and opinions (Im not saying this was her main goal. She was clearly on the show because she wanted to do well, and she was quite good.). Contestants are there to rearrange letters, dictionary corner guests are there to entertain and create discussion if they wish.

IAWTP.

You are absolutely right Charlie, and I thought that I had made it clear that I had known workmates and friends whom didn't advertise their sexuality, and were treated as equals. I hope that doesn't sound patronising, but it wasn't Important to us what their sexual leanings were. my remarks were directed towards people like Kate whom seemed to desire respectabiliy. As far as I am concerned, she is respectable and likable and I told her so. Perhaps the truth is that people like me have no idea what Homosexuals have to put up with in their lives, but as I keep saying, I can listen and learn.

[Hannah O]

Firstly, from what I've seen so far in these forums, it doesn't matter what creed, colour, religion or preference you have- you will get insulted!

Yeah I think that's because there's a big male bias on this forum. If it were a mainly female forum, that wouldn't happen.

Oh, it would. You just wouldn't see it because it'd be in PMs and behind people's backs

But back on-topic, I didn't know that Alan Turing was homosexual- it's a real shame that the man who did so much for computers wasn't accepted. Like you've all said, prejudice and discrimination still unfortunately exists sometimes, but when people are perfectly accepting, it does get slightly tiresome when someone feels the need to inform you about their preferences every time they talk to you (a bit like Little Britain, "the only gay in the village"- while it's clearly an extremely exaggerated caricature of a homosexual, you do get the occasional person who won't stop unless you openly acknowledge them every single time they mention it). It's almost as if the person wants attention- even if one acknowledges their orientation, the person will keep alluding to it even if it's completely non-sequitur in the current conversation.

Again, I'm stressing the fact that this is not a problem at all with the vast majority of homosexuals, and that injustice and bullying is a sad truth still- my comments only apply to a very small minority, and I apologise if I've inadvertently offended with a clumsily worded comment.

[Phil Reynolds]

I apologise if I've inadvertently offended with a clumsily worded comment.

Nothing to apologise for! For most people, our sexuality is a necessary part of who we are - but only a part. As you're obviously aware, Dafydd in Little Britain is a caricature of the kind of person for whom their sexuality becomes their main (or even sole) defining characteristic. I dislike such people; but I also dislike people who say things like, "Why do you have to flaunt your sex life around the office?" - a comment I received once from a workmate in response to the fact that I had a picture of my partner on my desk. When I asked (a) if the fact that he had a picture of his wife and three charming children on his desk meant that he was flaunting his sexuality, and (b) what he could tell me about my sex life if I was supposedly flaunting it so brazenly, he didn't get it (quelle surprise).

[Matt Morrison]

Since this has become a discussion of "in-your-face gays" vs. "passive gays" (if you'll excuse my rather blunt simplification), I wonder what you guys think about camp gays.

Personally I view campness in the same way as the 'unnecessary attention' factors discussed here; I find it annoying that gay men deem it necessary to act camply, for no reason, that I can tell, other than simply because they are gay - "I am gay and because I'm ok with being gay it is my duty to make it obvious at all opportunities by acting camp" as if by not acting camp they would be somehow be showing that they are embarrassed by their sexuality.
To me, acting camp is on a par with what many have accused Kate of - making a point of being gay just for being gay's sake.

I'd particularly like to hear your opinions on campness Phil, as I respect you and your opinions hugely, and interestingly, I realise now that I've thought about it that I've always seen you as a generally non-camp gay, though of course I'm happy to accept I might be utterly wrong.

It's worth pointing out I get on great with gay men, and am very very far from homophobic, it's just the camp thing I have a problem with.
But I am not gay and maybe my problem with campness is as much down to me not understanding where campness historically originated from, and where it originates from on an individual personal basis too.

Enlighten me.

Slightly off topic, is it possible for me to be in love with Phil in a totally heterosexual way?

[Phil Reynolds]

I'd particularly like to hear your opinions on campness Phil

Hmm. That's a complex issue and one I don't know if I can do justice to in a few lines. But briefly:

When I was a young man, I found camp men embarrassing, because I felt threatened by them. They were the embodiment of a stereotype that to me, growing up, explained (I thought) why people hated gays so much. I wanted to yell at them: "Don't you understand? If you would only act normally and speak properly and stop lisping and mincing all over the place, people would realise that we are normal and accept us. It's because of you that I'm discriminated against!"

This of course was utter bollocks and a projection of my failure to accept myself. As I matured and became more comfortable with who I was, I realised that most camp men were not play-acting - they were simply being themselves. The camp men I know now (mostly gay, but one or two of the campest men I know are straight) generally couldn't be any other way. (There is also a certain amount of fun to be had from putting it on when amongst friends, and I enjoy camping it up in the right company as much as anyone.)

However, I do find a certain kind of over-exaggerated effeminacy (like the "Leave Britney Alone" video) unpalatable - just as I find swaggering macho displays of male heterosexuality sickening. But true camp, to me, isn't about effeminacy anyway. It's about a sense of artifice, which at its best has produced some of the best spoken and literary wit of this or any other period. The best definition of camp I ever heard was something like: "Treating the trivial as serious and the serious as trivial."

All of the above is a gross over-simplification though. There's much more to camp historically than this - it's a subject on which many learned books have been written. (This Wikipedia article will give you some hints if you're curious.)

I respect you and your opinions hugely

I don't know why, but I'm flattered - I'll gratefully take respect where I can get it.

I realise now that I've thought about it that I've always seen you as a generally non-camp gay, though of course I'm happy to accept I might be utterly wrong.

Ha. Well, I suppose if my speaking voice is anything to be go by, my voiceover showreel may or may not confirm your idea of me. Most of this is just me talking in my normal voice with a slightly exaggerated formality for the microphone; the American lieutenant briefing his men (at around 1:34), which is from a PC game I did some voices for, is probably the butchest I get (although, embarrassingly, the highly compressed EQ makes me sound a bit sibilant which rather counteracts the intended effect).

Slightly off topic, is it possible for me to be in love with Phil in a totally heterosexual way?

You tell me...

[George Jenkins]

It's a pity that Homosexuals have to advertise their sexuality so much.

Charlie has already addressed this point more succinctly that I could have, so I'll move on. George, I wonder if you can see the contrast between your own experience, which you expressed thus:

I've known several hundred men in my lifetime in the Railway service, including several Homosexuals. We knew whom they were, because most of them had partners, but to us, they were our workmates, and a good lot of blokes they were too.

...and the wider social outlook of the time which you refer to here:

I remember when Homosexuality was a prison offence if a person was caught soliciting in public. One such was Lord Beaulieu whom was caught in London soliciting young R.A.F. men.

If everyone was like you, George, and accepted homosexuals on equal terms, there would be no problem. But Lord Beaulieu wasn't "advertising his sexuality", "protesting" or seeking "acceptance" when he was arrested - he was simply trying to meet some like-minded individuals for a bit of bedroom fun. Oscar Wilde was sentenced to two years' hard labour. Alan Turing, who invented computer science and arguably contributed more than any other individual to the Allied victory in World War 2, was chemically castrated and subsequently committed suicide because of society's refusal to accept him on equal terms as you did with your colleagues. I myself am barely more than half your age, but I was born in a time when homosexuality was totally illegal; and, even though it was partially decriminalised in 1967, all sexual liaisons I had before I was 21 (and many of those afterwards) were offences punishable by up to five years in prison. So, when we lived in a society that treated some of its citizens so unfairly, you might begin to see why some of us became sufficiently angered about it to protest. If we hadn't, do you think society would have become more tolerant of its own accord?

Today there is a lot less for gay people to get hot under the collar about. The legal status of homosexuals is mostly on a par with that of heterosexuals. But homophobic prejudice, bullying and injustice still exist in certain quarters, and some of us will still stand up to it if we have to. (And yes, there will always be a strident few who complain of it where it doesn't in fact exist, but what can you do?!)

Phil, I didn't realise How deep this subject was, Homosexuality is not a crime, full stop. So I can't see why people would want to object to it, but as young Hannah implied, the Mob will always attack the minorities. At aged 14, I was a minority of one, When I was called to my Teacher's desk to receive my final exam report before leaving school, my Teacher said "with a name like that you should have done better". Her name was Mrs Jenkins. I can still hear the jeers and laughter of the class, and I was almost in tears walking back to my desk. The fact that a picture I painted was framed and hung in the Teacher's Staff room didn't count.

I have a disability with figures that has got a name similar to Dyslexia, but it was not recognised at the time. I can't remember getting a single sum right. My Wife has to check the lottery tickets, because the numbers are a complete jumble to me. However! I discovered that the lessons I learnt in life were more useful to me than school was. Because of my experience in school, I have a slight affinity to your group, and I think I know how you feel.
I finished my last post with a frivolous account of cuddling in the kichen and on the landing which I almost regret that now because of the serious subject, but although the physical side has long gone, our romance is still there.

[david dawson]

I think the world would be a different place today if the letters DPFEOOTWR had not appeared and we got UMFFDIVER instead. Also, the big bastard lexicon of hate that Susie consulted to ok the offensive word should be taken outside and burnt and replaced with a lesbian friendly version that only contains acceptable words such as CLITRUB and BUNNIES and I'VE NEVER DONE THAT BEFORE. Finally, Susie and Rachel can show their solidarity for the cause by wearing dungaress and smoking roll ups.

[Dan Vanniasingham]

I don't really have much to add as most of my thoughts have been posted by others. It's disappointing that Kate has made some comments which could be interpreted as slurs against Countdown. The first lesbian on Countdown? Highly improbable. The first "out" lesbian on Countdown? Well, in the sense that any previous may not have had references to their sexuality mentioned - possibly. But when she says her sexuality is "not something that I’m embarrassed about or shy about", that implies she feels other lesbians DO feel that way. Perhaps, it's more a case of others not feeling the need to promote their sexual preference, because they're more secure with themselves.

Anyway, the main reason behind my post is:

I've commented on the article, so I won't repeat myself here.

Any unjustified slur against a website I'd devoted a large chunk of my life too would seriously piss me off. I think you've handled this very well, Charlie, and I hope Kate either highlights the homophobia she's referring to or offers an unreserved apology against this community.

[Phil Reynolds]

I finished my last post with a frivolous account of cuddling in the kichen and on the landing which I almost regret that now because of the serious subject, but although the physical side has long gone, our romance is still there.

George, I didn't interpret your comment as at all frivolous, at least not in the sense of diminishing the subject matter at hand. Keep right on posting. You can congratulate yourself with the thought that I now know slightly more about your sexual history than you know about mine!

You ended another of your posts last night with the comment that you are not too old to listen and learn. I hope I'm as open-minded as you are when I'm in my 80s.

[Jon Corby]

When has contestant ever talked about their marriage? If they spent ages discussing how she was married to a woman then that would indicate that it's something abnormal. It says in that article that she wants to normalise gay marriage, and surely treating it like it's not an issue is the best way to do it.

Spot on, and...

Gentle afternoon gameshow Countdown was stunned last week when a mischievous contestant made the 7-letter word ‘poofter’ – a homophobic insult... Countdown host Jeff Stelling looked shocked, repeated the word and then asked Susie Dent in the Dictionary Corner to confirm that it was a word in the dictionary. The other contestant found the word ‘proofed’, to the obvious relief of both Stelling and Dent.

Although this is a fairly accurate description of the scandal, I'm extremely disappointed at the omission of several other important incidents that accompanied that historic moment, such as John Sergeant’s monocle falling off, the Channel 4 test card appearing for a brief moment, and Susie Dent licking her lips in sheer delight as her homophobia became legitimised by the inclusion of 'poofter' in the Oxford Dictionary. These incidents simply must be reported lest I lose all faith in Lesbilicious' journalistic credibility forever.

...brilliant!

[Chris Corby]

I love the way George writes 'homosexuality' in the middle of a sentence as 'Homosexuality' - as in 'God'

[Phil Reynolds]

I love the way George writes 'homosexuality' in the middle of a sentence as 'Homosexuality' - as in 'God'

Well, it did use to be a capital offence...

[Martin Gardner]

I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said, yeah, but when I was on Countdown for the first time, Richard didn't say "Martin enjoys pool and snooker, and he's straight!" Jeff did mention it on her first show, and did a very good job of it. Like I remember one guy about 5 years ago who'd had a brain tumour and was in a wheelchair, and Richard mentioned it about 8 times in the same show - that really was over the top. What chance does anyone have of being accepted as 'normal' (used with no particular connotation here) if people, or even they themselves, keep going on about all their differences?

[Chris Corby]

I love the way George writes 'homosexuality' in the middle of a sentence as 'Homosexuality' - as in 'God'

Well, it did use to be a capital offence...

[Phil Reynolds]

I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said, yeah, but when I was on Countdown for the first time, Richard didn't say "Martin enjoys pool and snooker, and he's straight!" Jeff did mention it on her first show, and did a very good job of it.

And Jeff didn't say, "Our challenger today is Kate Richardson, who's a lesbian." He simply said, "She lives with her partner, Sarah." Had you been married, I would have similarly expected Richard to mention the name of your wife. In each case, the viewer would draw the appropriate inference about the contestant's sexuality - although they would be more conscious of doing so in Kate's case, because it's unusual on Countdown to hear a same-sex partner referred to explicitly. The point is, the more often this happens, the less remarkable it will seem.

[George Jenkins]

I love the way George writes 'homosexuality' in the middle of a sentence as 'Homosexuality' - as in 'God'

Oh blast! Another mistake. I'm still having trouble with my nouns and verbs. When I said that I'm always willing to learn, I forgot that I might not have enough time left, to learn enough to avoid the missiles that you young educated blokes fire at me. (Thinks! hope I've got the commas and full stops in the right place)

It could have been worse. I wrote at first, "Oh sod it!" and was horrified when the implications of that statement hit me. Thanks for making me laugh Chris.

[Kevin Thurlow]

"Alan Turing, who invented computer science and arguably contributed more than any other individual to the Allied victory in World War 2, was chemically castrated and subsequently committed suicide because of society's refusal to accept him on equal terms as you did with your colleagues. "

Er, well the inquest decided he committed suicide as he "was ashamed of being homosexual". But he wasn't, he was quite open about it. His work colleagues knew of his tastes. He died by ingestion of cyanide. He might have been depressed by the ghastly chemical treatment, or he might have accidentally taken cyanide (he was a sloppy lab worker), or he might have been murdered by security services as he was a "risk". An "Open" verdict would have been more sensible.

I would have thought the great majority of viewers of Countdown want to see good contests and don't care about the domestic arrangements of competitors. Most contestants want to do well, but some it seems have hidden agendas, and use the programme to publicise themselves, either as a job interview or for other reasons. Some of course get sponsorship for a worthy charity, which is great, but those charities don't get named on television, so why go into unnecessary detail in other cases? It might be mildly interesting if someone has 8 children, but only if they have given them names like Marmaduke, Moon Unit, etc.

[David Roe]

I would have thought the great majority of viewers of Countdown want to see good contests and don't care about the domestic arrangements of competitors. Most contestants want to do well, but some it seems have hidden agendas, and use the programme to publicise themselves, either as a job interview or for other reasons. Some of course get sponsorship for a worthy charity, which is great, but those charities don't get named on television, so why go into unnecessary detail in other cases? It might be mildly interesting if someone has 8 children, but only if they have given them names like Marmaduke, Moon Unit, etc.

Taken to extremes, you could say the contestants' names aren't relevant. Calling them Champion and Challenger would do. The producers have decided that names, locations, and immediate family are of sufficient interest to the viewers, and I'm happy with that. I certainly didn't like (or understand) the Junior Mastermind series where the children were identified only by their first names.

Incidentally, the production team make sure that what they say about you is what you want it to be. There was a man on on the same day as me who had had three children, but one had died since the application form had been filled in. They were extremely concerned that RW should not say anything the competitor didn't wanted him to say, and had quite a detailed discussion about it. No doubt if someone is on with an obvious disability such as the man mentioned earlier in the wheelchair, but the contestant doesn't want it mentioned, it won't be.

[Matt Morrison]

When I was a young man, I found camp men embarrassing [...] They were the embodiment of a stereotype that to me, growing up, explained (I thought) why people hated gays so much. [...] This of course was utter bollocks and a projection of my failure to accept myself. As I matured and became more comfortable with who I was, I realised that most camp men were not play-acting - they were simply being themselves. The camp men I know now (mostly gay, but one or two of the campest men I know are straight) generally couldn't be any other way. [...] However, I do find a certain kind of over-exaggerated effeminacy (like the "Leave Britney Alone" video) unpalatable - just as I find swaggering macho displays of male heterosexuality sickening. But true camp, to me, isn't about effeminacy anyway. It's about a sense of artifice, which at its best has produced some of the best spoken and literary wit of this or any other period. The best definition of camp I ever heard was something like: "Treating the trivial as serious and the serious as trivial."

I agree with most of what you've said. My problem is understanding how a gay man becomes camp. You say you "realised that most camp men were not play-acting - they were simply being themselves" and this is what I struggle with. I hope I am safe in saying that gay men aren't born camp (even though they may have been born gay), just like straight men aren't born as chauvinistic wankers (yet so many turn out that way). Whilst I can understand how environmental factors and sexual awakenings can easily turn straight men into twats, I am confused as to how gay men develop their campness. It just seems as though it is something that is developed quite deliberately rather than subconsciously. Very few straight men become wankers deliberately, I'd say it's a combination of hormones, inherited predatorial instincts, discovering a feeling of physical power over women, etc. that turns them into wankers without them effecting such a change. And this 'wankerness', these "[sickening] swaggering macho displays of male heterosexuality" as you put it (and I'd agree), tend to be expressed not through physical characteristics so much as through mental attitudes. Campness, on the other hand, is more of a brand of physicality, a change in voice, in gait, in expression, that to me, feels more forced than it does a product of subconscious development.

I also understand where you're coming from with reference to campness in literature - it's something I touched upon in parts of my English degree. But I'm more concerned with campness in terms of an individual's way of being - how many camp gays are thinking about "Treating the trivial as serious and the serious as trivial" when they act camp, and how many are just being camp because they think it's the right way to show that they are gay and proud?

What I am saying is that, from what I have experienced, a camp gay and a non-camp gay who are both at ease with their sexuality are fairly likely to think similarly in terms of attitude to sexuality.
Whereas the difference between a respectable straight man and a "let's get dahn the boozer and shag some birds" straight man is more likely to be seen in their attitudes, and not in their physicalities (although a swagger in their walk would be one counter-example).
To me, campness is applied deliberately and more physical, chauvinism is oppositely subconsciously developed and more attitudinal.
You even described camp as "a sense of artifice" and that sums it up for me - I hate it when people act 'fake', regardless of the person's sexuality, and regardless of whether that fakeness comes in the form of dishonesty and back-stabbing or if it comes in the form of adding "fierce" and "girlfriend" to the end of every sentence.

I appreciate I'm wittering on here, and probably making little sense. Perhaps over-conscious of not offending anyone. I'm eager not to be seen as someone who doesn't understand the plight of the homosexual, I'm just being honest here and expressing my confused thoughts on a subject I admit to not understanding. The more I think about it the more I'd be open to hearing a camp gay explain "this is why I act camp".

I don't know why, but I'm flattered - I'll gratefully take respect where I can get it.

At the risk of this becoming an exercise in ass-licking, I've always looked up to you Phil since I joined here, and despite you acting coy and surprised, it's not like I've kept it a secret! I enjoy your posts thoroughly, your attitudes generally make sense to me, and above all I love the way you write, from the way I see similarities with my own writing (no such thing as a brief explanation, you waffle in the same delightful language that you'd write an essay in) to your cute little habits (one such example, you'll never ever write a proper noun like Countdown without italicising it properly as Countdown, it makes me smile!). In short, you're probably a gay version of where I'd like to be when I'm older, and I admire your self-assurance and confidence.

I suppose if my speaking voice is anything to be go by, my voiceover showreel may or may not confirm your idea of me.

I listened to the first 10 seconds of your VO showreel and loved it, I shall listen to the whole thing at some point but I'd better split it into blocks so I don't get too tickled all at once. What was the PC game you did some voices for? (presuming I'm not geeky enough to recognise it from the samples alone when I hear them)

Finally, I apologise for kind of relying on you as the token gay in the forum. I know you're not offended, but just thought I'd say sorry anyway!

[Jon Corby]

Jesus, get a room.

[Charlie Reams]

If I ever feel the need to add a voiceover to apterous, Phil, you're totally hired.

[Michael Wallace]

Jesus, get a room.

Yeah, this thread is getting a bit faggy.

[Martin Gardner]

I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said, yeah, but when I was on Countdown for the first time, Richard didn't say "Martin enjoys pool and snooker, and he's straight!" Jeff did mention it on her first show, and did a very good job of it.

And Jeff didn't say, "Our challenger today is Kate Richardson, who's a lesbian." He simply said, "She lives with her partner, Sarah." Had you been married, I would have similarly expected Richard to mention the name of your wife. In each case, the viewer would draw the appropriate inference about the contestant's sexuality - although they would be more conscious of doing so in Kate's case, because it's unusual on Countdown to hear a same-sex partner referred to explicitly. The point is, the more often this happens, the less remarkable it will seem.

Yeah, I don't think they could have handled it better, personally.

[Matt Morrison]

Jesus, get a room.

JEALOUS!
You know I love you too Jon, you've just not been posting enough recently for me to have the opportunity to remind you.
Don't make me choose between you and Phil.

[Phil Reynolds]

Alan Turing [...] committed suicide because of society's refusal to accept him on equal terms

Er, well the inquest decided he committed suicide as he "was ashamed of being homosexual".

Eh? The coroner's verdict was suicide, but Turing's sexuality wasn't even mentioned, in either the evidence or the summing up. The coroner did say something about "a man of his type" being unpredictable, but the context suggests that he was talking about Turing's solitary nature and extreme intellect rather than his sexuality. Where is your quotation above taken from?

I agree with you that an open verdict may have been more appropriate in view of the many questions that surrounded Turing's death. But I incline towards the view held by Turing's biographer, Andrew Hodges: that Turing's post-war ambitions were continually frustrated by the fact that he was considered (with no justification whatever) a "security risk" and was not allowed to play as active a role in crucial research and development as he would have wished; and it was this frustration that ultimately led him to take his own life.

I would have thought the great majority of viewers of Countdown want to see good contests and don't care about the domestic arrangements of competitors.

I disagree. Most people watch game shows for two reasons: the game itself, and the human interest factor. Look at all the media curiosity about Gail Trimble, the captain of the winning University Challenge team. We certainly don't need to know any details of contestants' private lives; but knowing, for example, that James Hurrell was imminently to be married certainly added to the enjoyment of seeing him do well on Countdown.

[David Williams]

As someone who watches University Challenge maybe once a year, read about Gail Trimble yesterday, recorded it and has studiously avoided seeing anything about it today . . .

Though I agree viewers do like human interest, one of the strengths of Countdown is that you don't get much. Although they seem to blather on for ages, the forced banter with Rachel, the introduction of the contestants, the celebrity, a nod in Susie's direction, you've only got to fast forward about four minutes. If you set to record at 3:30 they're already playing. Not a lot of time to set the world to rights.

[Hannah O]

I liked the capital offence comment!

As for Gail Trimble, she does Latin. My Latin teacher went out of his way to point this out to us! I hope that isn't a spoiler- sorry if it is!

As everyone has said, Countdown doesn't go into massive detail about the contestants' personal lives, giving us enough information to get to know them while keeping it relatively succinct. However, for certain types who might, say, form designs on someone they see on the television, the media is a way of finding out more about the person and whether they are taken or not However, that applies more to celebrities or well-known people than contestants...

[Gavin Chipper]

fcking gays

Here's an example of how the moderators of this forum respond to actual homophobic abuse.

*hits RB with the ban hammer*

I think that comment was faked.

[Phil Reynolds]

My problem is understanding how a gay man becomes camp. [several hundred words snipped] The more I think about it the more I'd be open to hearing a camp gay explain "this is why I act camp".

Matt, all that you've said sounds eminently reasonable and well thought out, probably more so than my hastily assembled opinions. Ultimately, as with all nature v. nurture debates, the real reasons why people behave as they do stem from a complex mish-mash of influences and are different for each individual. In the final analysis, I don't care how camp or butch somebody is; I look for other qualities when deciding whether or not I like someone, such as kindness, sensitivity, thoughtfulness and sincerity.

Your comments about me are very kind and a little embarrassing. I probably work hard at portraying my better qualities in written forums where I can think carefully about the impact of what I say before hitting the Submit button. (And still don't always get it right, as Allan Harmer will testify.) If you ever meet me IRL you're probably in for some major disappointment.

What was the PC game you did some voices for? (presuming I'm not geeky enough to recognise it from the samples alone when I hear them)

The clip in my showreel is a re-recorded dialogue sample from a game called Alpha Black Zero. I was cast as the central character (one Lieutenant Kyle Hardlaw), and at the request of the Dutch game developers I did it with an English accent, as did most of the other lead voice actors. However, the distributors didn't like it and insisted that the characters be redone with American voices. There wasn't the time or budget for the developers to come back to the UK, so they got Netherlands-based actors to do the re-records. They were very apologetic, said their hands had been tied by the distribution deal and insisted they much preferred the voices the way we'd originally done them. For my showreel I redid the Kyle Hardlaw voice with an American accent myself, purely to try and get some variety in there. Oh, and the game bombed.

I subsequently did a whole load of character voices for another game developed by the same team, an MMRPG called The Chronicles of Spellborn. This one seems to have been quite well received, and this time my contribution's acknowledged in the credits. They also got me to do the narration for a quick trailer they threw together while the game was still in production, which (I've just discovered to my surprise while Googling) is on YouTube here. It's a bit rough around the edges really - not my best work. I was aiming for tones of deep portent, and missing.

[Gavin Chipper]

I see similarities with my own writing

That's quite funny, because you know how sometimes on a forum you sometimes get people muddled up (maybe it's just me)? But I sometimes do with you and Phil.

By the way, on the subject of campness, I'm not sure how conscious a thing it is. If someone hangs around with camp people, it's likely to "rub off" as people who hang around with each other often have similar mannerisms to some degree.

But also one of my friends is gay but when I first met him he had a girlfriend and was completely in denial even to himself. But he was also quite camp, and a lot of people were surprised he had a girlfriend. So I wouldn't see that as conscious campness.

[George Jenkins]

Jesus, get a room.

I have read all the different opinions on these pages from Homosexuals, Lesbians, heteresexuals and Bisexuals. I've read about the prejudices and even hatred against you. Now I would like to relate to you my experience as a red blooded Heteresexual male, whom loves the Gels, (only for platonic friendship, because I am married to a lovely Gel already)
Now! you would think that I would not suffer any prejudice at all, would you, so I'll tell you a story of how I became to be known as a spineless wimp. It is 1944, and we are all in the pub. All my Uncles and Aunts are with us, and we are all in Uniform, and I am 16years old. My dad is buying the drinks, and when he came to me, He said "what are YOU Having" ( unfortunately, I can't reproduce the sneer in his voice in these pages). I said "I'll have a grapefruit please". He then turned to my young brother whom was only 14 years old, and said, "What's a REAL man going to drink". My brother said "I'll have a pint of cider" you should have seen the look of pride on my dad's face as my brother drank a pint of cider in one go. the fact that he vomited it all in the gutter about 10 minutes later didn't matter. He was a real man

When my dad died suffering from smoking and drinking diseases, we cremated him, and as the coffin went down, I said to myself, "goodbye you Bastard".

Another time, I walked into the Driver's mess-room at Victoria Station, and it was packed with Drivers drinking tea, smoking, and playing cards. One of them said "we need another man for cards George" and I replied, "sorry, I don't play cards". then another one whom I didn't know said,"I bet you don't drink either". I said ,"no, I don't". He said, "and I bet you don't smoke. I said "You are right, I don't smoke". then he said "why don't you go and jump in the river, because you've got nothing to live for".
I said Very loudly " if I had to play a game of cards which even my two little girls play, and if I had to drink and piss myself while I'm spewing up in the gutter, and If I had to smoke and stink for the rest of my life, that would be the time to jump in the river.

The silence was, as they say, deafening; and the Bastard whom thought that he was being very clever, didn't say another word. So you see Lads and Lassies, to upset ignorant jobs, you only have to be a bit different. they don't feel comfortable if we don't join the Herd

So, I bet that you know what I'm going to say next? Yup! you are correct. All, I repeat, all of my old workmates whom were magnificent Macho men are dead. they died from lung cancers, Emphysema, Liver diseases etc. Also two of my younger "real men" brothers and one sister. While I am in full flow and seething with anger and spite, I must say to you smokers and heavy drinkers that you have just read the story of your future. Believe me!

Blast! I am now as bad as the rest of the bullies and prejudiced people that I have been condemning. Never mind, I may save a life with my remark.

[George Jenkins]

My problem is understanding how a gay man becomes camp. [several hundred words snipped] The more I think about it the more I'd be open to hearing a camp gay explain "this is why I act camp".

Matt, all that you've said sounds eminently reasonable and well thought out, probably more so than my hastily assembled opinions. Ultimately, as with all nature v. nurture debates, the real reasons why people behave as they do stem from a complex mish-mash of influences and are different for each individual. In the final analysis, I don't care how camp or butch somebody is; I look for other qualities when deciding whether or not I like someone, such as kindness, sensitivity, thoughtfulness and sincerity.

Your comments about me are very kind and a little embarrassing. I probably work hard at portraying my better qualities in written forums where I can think carefully about the impact of what I say before hitting the Submit button. (And still don't always get it right, as Allan Harmer will testify.) If you ever meet me IRL you're probably in for some major disappointment.

What was the PC game you did some voices for? (presuming I'm not geeky enough to recognise it from the samples alone when I hear them)

The clip in my showreel is a re-recorded dialogue sample from a game called Alpha Black Zero. I was cast as the central character (one Lieutenant Kyle Hardlaw), and at the request of the Dutch game developers I did it with an English accent, as did most of the other lead voice actors. However, the distributors didn't like it and insisted that the characters be redone with American voices. There wasn't the time or budget for the developers to come back to the UK, so they got Netherlands-based actors to do the re-records. They were very apologetic, said their hands had been tied by the distribution deal and insisted they much preferred the voices the way we'd originally done them. For my showreel I redid the Kyle Hardlaw voice with an American accent myself, purely to try and get some variety in there. Oh, and the game bombed.

I subsequently did a whole load of character voices for another game developed by the same team, an MMRPG called The Chronicles of Spellborn. This one seems to have been quite well received, and this time my contribution's acknowledged in the credits. They also got me to do the narration for a quick trailer they threw together while the game was still in production, which (I've just discovered to my surprise while Googling) is on YouTube here. It's a bit rough around the edges really - not my best work. I was aiming for tones of deep portent, and missing.

I have just listened to your voice on the clip Phil. Very pleasant and cultivated. I got carried away a bit while listening, and had to watch it to the end.

[Charlie Reams]

Seems like you were pretty lucky not to get hit by that train though.

[Phil Reynolds]

I have just listened to your voice on the clip Phil. Very pleasant and cultivated. I got carried away a bit while listening, and had to watch it to the end.

Thanks George. It would probably have sounded a lot better if I'd had the faintest inkling of what the flip I was talking about.