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Re: Re: Ticket #5803: ZoomDown - evidence of potential cheating

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:07 pm
by Jon Corby
Innis Carson wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:51 pm
I'm with Graeme - unless there are special circumstances that necessitate them, external tools (other than pen and paper) shouldn't be allowed. They take away more or less the only concrete basis on which cheating investigations might be conducted. I sympathise with people who are used to the normal white-on-blue letters and find it harder without them, but this isn't a core element of the game and I don't think there's much of a case that it needs to be accounted for. Certainly not at the cost of raising constant questions of cheating.
Again, if the argument is that it’s not fair that Conor sees the letters “nicely” whereas his opponent doesn’t, I’m far more sympathetic to that. You could counter that they could make their own, but that’s possibly beyond some people too.

“You’re not allowed to see the letters nicely because a tiny number of other people cheat” sucks though.

Re: Re: Ticket #5803: ZoomDown - evidence of potential cheating

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:02 pm
by Graeme Cole
Jon Corby wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:59 pm
I wouldn't think it unfair if somebody else had their own letters from, say, the board game, and used these as a visual aid either. However, if they then started moving these cards around mid-game, that wouldn't be allowed.
If it's good enough for Will D Downing...

Re: Ticket #5803: ZoomDown - evidence of potential cheating

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:15 pm
by Rhys Benjamin
I get the reasoning behind re-typing the selections but my workaround for this is learning to standardise my handwritten capitals and spacing between letters.

If you watch my games on ZoomDown, I’m not looking at the screen because of a lack of space more than anything else. This is why I’m of the view I am on the whole thing - the entire allegations are based on confirmation bias. In the cheating thread (page 1), Charlie says the cheatomatic “rarely” (not “never”) provides false positives, and that signals for players recording soon should be ignored.

If looking away is a crime in itself (it’s not), then the vast majority of ZoomDowners are guilty. And I do believe “nothing” is a valid thing to look at. I constantly stare into the middle distance on one spot when concentrating without looking at anything in particular.

Re: Ticket #5803: ZoomDown - evidence of potential cheating

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:17 am
by Jon Corby
Total misrepresentation of the facts there Rhys.
Rhys Benjamin wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:15 pm
In the cheating thread (page 1), Charlie says the cheatomatic “rarely” (not “never”) provides false positives, and that signals for players recording soon should be ignored.
That's in response to a conversation with Clare (who was appearing soon on the show) who explained that she played practice games alongside various training tools she was using to try and improve. She was concerned about being flagged as a cheat. Charlie was reassuring her that practice games wouldn't get flagged anyway, and that he wouldn't have been particularly bothered about catching people who were about to record since they'd be exposed on TV anyway. Not that the whole method somehow didn't work in that scenario.

If that were the explanation for James's greyed out games, I think James would have conveyed that to Charlie, and we wouldn't be here under the same circumstances. As far as I'm aware, that conversation has not taken place. He was warned not to cheat, he replied with the standard indignant "here's a fantastical explanation for what I (wrongly) think has aroused your suspicions" template email, and his superstats chart then dipped massively. Hmm.
Rhys Benjamin wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:15 pm
If looking away is a crime in itself (it’s not), then the vast majority of ZoomDowners are guilty. And I do believe “nothing” is a valid thing to look at. I constantly stare into the middle distance on one spot when concentrating without looking at anything in particular.
Again, a ridiculous simplification and distortion of the facts. James is very obviously focused on something. He focuses on the exact same place, what was it, 100 times in 20/30 minutes according to Graeme's analysis? Several times for several seconds (for over the half the round in total) while performing the hardest 6s solve ever EVEN WHILE HE'S WRITING DOWN HIS METHOD FFS. You don't see that from anyone, ever, during numbers games. Yes we all glance at nothing, but that looks very different and is easily recognisable. The producer of the show told you as much on the apto thread. Oh, and then of course he didn't do it at all during the next episode. Why would sitting slightly further back/higher up have this effect? If he were prone to looking at nothing to the side while thinking, he'd still do it in a slightly different position, wouldn't he?

If you think "the vast majority of ZoomDowners are guilty" of the same as James, please present your evidence. And we can see if a) they have an explanation for what they're looking at or b) they're clearly "staring at nothing in middle distance" or c) something else.

James didn't. He said he was looking at nothing, because there's nothing there. Unlike Fiona, I don't think that "the more unbelievable a lie, the more likely it is to be true". I just think he's a shit liar.

Re: Ticket #5803: ZoomDown - evidence of potential cheating

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:28 pm
by Noel Mc
Nothing to contribute to any of this, other than admitting that I enjoy checking to see if there have been any more posts to this thread.

Re: Ticket #5803: ZoomDown - evidence of potential cheating

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:41 pm
by Thomas Cappleman
Noel Mc wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:28 pm
Nothing to contribute to any of this, other than admitting that I enjoy checking to see if there have been any more posts to this thread.
Me too. Have another one (sorry it's not more interesting).

Re: Ticket #5803: ZoomDown - evidence of potential cheating

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:46 pm
by Patrick Thompson
Noel Mc wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:28 pm
Nothing to contribute to any of this, other than admitting that I enjoy checking to see if there have been any more posts to this thread.
100% this. It’s like Countdown Eastenders

Re: Ticket #5803: ZoomDown - evidence of potential cheating

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:36 pm
by JackHurst
Patrick Thompson wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:46 pm
Noel Mc wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:28 pm
Nothing to contribute to any of this, other than admitting that I enjoy checking to see if there have been any more posts to this thread.
100% this. It’s like Countdown Eastenders
So what is the plot twist at the end of the episode going to be? Janine Butcher was blackmailing him into doing it?

Re: Ticket #5803: ZoomDown - evidence of potential cheating

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:52 am
by Jon Corby
Fiona T wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:24 am
Fiona T wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:55 am
As to further debating the 'evidence', it seems that doing so is unlikely to change anyone's mind and simply keeps what is a thoroughly unpleasant episode rumbling away.
Q.E.D.
Difference is, I'm open to having my mind changed, genuinely. The issue is that an attempted defence gets made, you point out the holes/contradictions... and then silence.

Re: Re: Ticket #5803: ZoomDown - evidence of potential cheating

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:51 pm
by L'oisleatch McGraw
Maybe not game of the century so... :/
https://www.apterous.org/viewgame.php?game=2690761

Re: Re: Ticket #5803: ZoomDown - evidence of potential cheating

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:05 pm
by Gavin Chipper
Deactivated account.

Re: Ticket #5803: ZoomDown - evidence of potential cheating

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:40 am
by Rhys Benjamin
Jon Corby wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:17 am
[Charlie] wouldn't have been particularly bothered about catching people who were about to record since they'd be exposed on TV anyway.
Isn't James recording soon?

Re: Re: Ticket #5803: ZoomDown - evidence of potential cheating

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:59 am
by Ronan M Higginson
Well this really is a shame :( really good guy and such a shame to have him go.