incoherency solver

 Newbie
 Posts: 24
 Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:50 am
incoherency solver
Does the incoherency number solver give all possible solutions?

 Devotee
 Posts: 519
 Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 1:10 am
Re: incoherency solver
Yep.Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:26 pmDoes the incoherency number solver give all possible solutions?

 Newbie
 Posts: 24
 Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:50 am
Re: incoherency solver
Owen Carroll:
Do you have any evidence to back your claim?
Do you have any evidence to back your claim?

 Devotee
 Posts: 519
 Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 1:10 am
Re: incoherency solver
I've used it a lot to practise for the show. It gives all possible solutions.Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:40 amOwen Carroll:
Do you have any evidence to back your claim?

 Newbie
 Posts: 24
 Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:50 am
Re: incoherency solver
Owen Carroll:
Why are you so certain that the incoherency solver gives all possible solutions to a given problem? I presume that you have not analysed each and every problem.
Why are you so certain that the incoherency solver gives all possible solutions to a given problem? I presume that you have not analysed each and every problem.

 Devotee
 Posts: 549
 Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:42 pm
Re: incoherency solver
Of course he hasn't analysed every single problem  he hasn't the time and nor has anyone. I can safely say that the numbers solver will give the closest solution possible every time due to the code it has been programmed with. It won't give every solution though as for stuff like 100 8 5 2 6 10 @110 there would clearly be far too many to list.Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:59 pmOwen Carroll:
Why are you so certain that the incoherency solver gives all possible solutions to a given problem? I presume that you have not analysed each and every problem.

 Devotee
 Posts: 519
 Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 1:10 am
Re: incoherency solver
Elliott's right. When I said all possible solutions I meant the closest solution it can get to, if it can't get right on.

 Newbie
 Posts: 24
 Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:50 am
Re: incoherency solver
What Elliott Mellor says is a reasonable outcome from a good solver. However, it is not meaningful to equal "all possible solutions" to "the closest solution" as Owen Carroll has stated.
Suppose that there are just four solutions (avoiding trivial equivalent solutions due to commutative properties, i.e. a+b = b+a, a*b = b*a ), does the solver gives all 4 solutions?
Suppose that there are just four solutions (avoiding trivial equivalent solutions due to commutative properties, i.e. a+b = b+a, a*b = b*a ), does the solver gives all 4 solutions?

 Postapocalypse
 Posts: 8533
 Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm
Re: incoherency solver
I think you're opening a whole can of worms talking about what counts as equivalent solutions though.Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:32 pmWhat Elliott Mellor says is a reasonable outcome from a good solver. However, it is not meaningful to equal "all possible solutions" to "the closest solution" as Owen Carroll has stated.
Suppose that there are just four solutions (avoiding trivial equivalent solutions due to commutative properties, i.e. a+b = b+a, a*b = b*a ), does the solver gives all 4 solutions?

 Newbie
 Posts: 24
 Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:50 am
Re: incoherency solver
Gavin Chipper:
Thanks for the pointer to the "can of worms". I do not wish to reopen this "can of worms" but the equivalence problem is not exactly "rocket science"; any competent mathematician should be able to solve the problem.
Going back to the incoherency solver, suppose that there are "too many" nontrivial solutions. Does anybody know how many is "too many"?
Thanks for the pointer to the "can of worms". I do not wish to reopen this "can of worms" but the equivalence problem is not exactly "rocket science"; any competent mathematician should be able to solve the problem.
Going back to the incoherency solver, suppose that there are "too many" nontrivial solutions. Does anybody know how many is "too many"?

 Devotee
 Posts: 549
 Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:42 pm
Re: incoherency solver
More than 1. It will only ever give 1 solution regardless of whether there is 2 solutions or 200 solutions.Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:23 pmGavin Chipper:
Thanks for the pointer to the "can of worms". I do not wish to reopen this "can of worms" but the equivalence problem is not exactly "rocket science"; any competent mathematician should be able to solve the problem.
Going back to the incoherency solver, suppose that there are "too many" nontrivial solutions. Does anybody know how many is "too many"?

 Newbie
 Posts: 24
 Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:50 am
Re: incoherency solver
Elliott Mellor:
"More than 1. It will only ever give 1 solution regardless of whether there is 2 solutions or 200 solutions."
I do not understand your statement. I have seen up to six alternative solutions from the incoherency solver.
"More than 1. It will only ever give 1 solution regardless of whether there is 2 solutions or 200 solutions."
I do not understand your statement. I have seen up to six alternative solutions from the incoherency solver.

 Postapocalypse
 Posts: 8533
 Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm
Re: incoherency solver
Maybe they could, but then another mathematician could solve the problem and come up with a different answer. The point is that it's partly subjective.Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:23 pmGavin Chipper:
Thanks for the pointer to the "can of worms". I do not wish to reopen this "can of worms" but the equivalence problem is not exactly "rocket science"; any competent mathematician should be able to solve the problem.

 Devotee
 Posts: 549
 Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:42 pm
Re: incoherency solver
I've never really cared that much about it, but from any times I've used the solver it has only ever given one solution  perhaps you're thinking of a different solver.Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:45 amElliott Mellor:
"More than 1. It will only ever give 1 solution regardless of whether there is 2 solutions or 200 solutions."
I do not understand your statement. I have seen up to six alternative solutions from the incoherency solver.

 Devotee
 Posts: 549
 Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:42 pm
Re: incoherency solver
This. I'd say 100*5+10 is the same solution as 5*100+10 but not the same as 5*100+4+6, but opinion on this differs.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:14 pmMaybe they could, but then another mathematician could solve the problem and come up with a different answer. The point is that it's partly subjective.Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:23 pmGavin Chipper:
Thanks for the pointer to the "can of worms". I do not wish to reopen this "can of worms" but the equivalence problem is not exactly "rocket science"; any competent mathematician should be able to solve the problem.

 Newbie
 Posts: 24
 Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:50 am
Re: incoherency solver
Gavin Chipper:
Elliot Mellor:
I am using the incoherency solver and it often gives more than one solution. My original question was whether the solution set is complete. If incoherency gives only one answer then my question is not a meaningful question in the first place.
Mathematics is never considered as subjective. If a different mathematician gets another solution then the initial axioms used by these two mathematicians are obviously different. If they use the same playing field then the results have to be identical.
5*100+10 is obviously different from 5*100+4+6 since there are 3 and 4 integers, respectively.
Elliot Mellor:
I am using the incoherency solver and it often gives more than one solution. My original question was whether the solution set is complete. If incoherency gives only one answer then my question is not a meaningful question in the first place.
Mathematics is never considered as subjective. If a different mathematician gets another solution then the initial axioms used by these two mathematicians are obviously different. If they use the same playing field then the results have to be identical.
5*100+10 is obviously different from 5*100+4+6 since there are 3 and 4 integers, respectively.

 Devotee
 Posts: 549
 Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:42 pm
Re: incoherency solver
I've just checked and it actually seems you are now right, it does give more than one solution. However I am certain this never used to be the case. It seems the solution set is complete  I just typed in a set of numbers and target that should give loads of solutions and indeed it gave me a heck of a lot.
Also, if you're going to bother about something like this can you bother to spell my name correctly?
Also, if you're going to bother about something like this can you bother to spell my name correctly?

 Postapocalypse
 Posts: 8533
 Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm
Re: incoherency solver
Then in this case they might be using different axioms, because by asking which numbers solutions in Countdown are identical, you're not formally defining it.Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:18 pmGavin Chipper:
Elliot Mellor:
I am using the incoherency solver and it often gives more than one solution. My original question was whether the solution set is complete. If incoherency gives only one answer then my question is not a meaningful question in the first place.
Mathematics is never considered as subjective. If a different mathematician gets another solution then the initial axioms used by these two mathematicians are obviously different. If they use the same playing field then the results have to be identical.
5*100+10 is obviously different from 5*100+4+6 since there are 3 and 4 integers, respectively.

 Enthusiast
 Posts: 278
 Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:32 pm
Re: incoherency solver
Correct, the main thing that converted me to the crossword tools number solver was that the incoherency one only used to return a single solution. The incoherency one does have a couple of advantages though  unlimited free goes, and the ability to solve number problems that fall outside the Countdown rules.Elliott Mellor wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:05 pmI've just checked and it actually seems you are now right, it does give more than one solution. However I am certain this never used to be the case.

 Newbie
 Posts: 24
 Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:50 am
Re: incoherency solver
Pedantically, you are correct. However, one has to start with a reasonable set of axioms/definitions to study equivalence between solutions. Unfortunately, I do not believe that it is going to be an easy exercise.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:02 pmThen in this case they might be using different axioms, because by asking which numbers solutions in Countdown are identical, you're not formally defining it.Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:18 pmGavin Chipper:
Elliott Mellor:
I am using the incoherency solver and it often gives more than one solution. My original question was whether the solution set is complete. If incoherency gives only one answer then my question is not a meaningful question in the first place.
Mathematics is never considered as subjective. If a different mathematician gets another solution then the initial axioms used by these two mathematicians are obviously different. If they use the same playing field then the results have to be identical.
5*100+10 is obviously different from 5*100+4+6 since there are 3 and 4 integers, respectively.

 Devotee
 Posts: 549
 Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:42 pm
Re: incoherency solver
Why do you want to know?Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:28 pmPedantically, you are correct. However, one has to start with a reasonable set of axioms/definitions to study equivalence between solutions. Unfortunately, I do not believe that it is going to be an easy exercise.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:02 pmThen in this case they might be using different axioms, because by asking which numbers solutions in Countdown are identical, you're not formally defining it.Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:18 pmGavin Chipper:
Elliott Mellor:
I am using the incoherency solver and it often gives more than one solution. My original question was whether the solution set is complete. If incoherency gives only one answer then my question is not a meaningful question in the first place.
Mathematics is never considered as subjective. If a different mathematician gets another solution then the initial axioms used by these two mathematicians are obviously different. If they use the same playing field then the results have to be identical.
5*100+10 is obviously different from 5*100+4+6 since there are 3 and 4 integers, respectively.

 Postapocalypse
 Posts: 8533
 Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:37 pm
Re: incoherency solver
Which was my original point  the can of worms.Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:28 pmPedantically, you are correct. However, one has to start with a reasonable set of axioms/definitions to study equivalence between solutions. Unfortunately, I do not believe that it is going to be an easy exercise.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:02 pmThen in this case they might be using different axioms, because by asking which numbers solutions in Countdown are identical, you're not formally defining it.Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:18 pmGavin Chipper:
Elliott Mellor:
I am using the incoherency solver and it often gives more than one solution. My original question was whether the solution set is complete. If incoherency gives only one answer then my question is not a meaningful question in the first place.
Mathematics is never considered as subjective. If a different mathematician gets another solution then the initial axioms used by these two mathematicians are obviously different. If they use the same playing field then the results have to be identical.
5*100+10 is obviously different from 5*100+4+6 since there are 3 and 4 integers, respectively.

 Newbie
 Posts: 24
 Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:50 am
Re: incoherency solver
I have some preliminary ideas how to solve the equivalence problem.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:04 pmWhich was my original point  the can of worms.Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:28 pmPedantically, you are correct. However, one has to start with a reasonable set of axioms/definitions to study equivalence between solutions. Unfortunately, I do not believe that it is going to be an easy exercise.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:02 pm
Then in this case they might be using different axioms, because by asking which numbers solutions in Countdown are identical, you're not formally defining it.

 Newbie
 Posts: 24
 Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:50 am
Re: incoherency solver
I do not understand your question.Elliott Mellor wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:11 pmWhy do you want to know?Vince Fernando wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:28 pmPedantically, you are correct. However, one has to start with a reasonable set of axioms/definitions to study equivalence between solutions. Unfortunately, I do not believe that it is going to be an easy exercise.Gavin Chipper wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:02 pm
Then in this case they might be using different axioms, because by asking which numbers solutions in Countdown are identical, you're not formally defining it.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 9 guests