Dress and make-up when appearing on show

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Malcolm James
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Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Malcolm James » Mon May 09, 2016 1:13 pm

What sort of dress and make-up do the production team insist on for contestants appearing on the show? I am asking this for a serious reason.

I write guest blogs for someone in the US and one of the things I've questioned is the dominant narrative that the male dominance of activities such as Countdown or chess is due solely to social conditioning ( http://boysmeneducation.com/nature-vers ... ditioning/ ). This imbalance in Countdown has so far escaped public comment, but there has been comment on a similar imbalance in University Challenge ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens ... enter.html ). One of the former female contestants has commented on the way that female contestants are forced to dress as factor which might put women off. I am sceptical about this, and the other societal reasons put forward, and I want to write a follow-up piece.

I imagine that what they do on University Challenge is no different from what they do on Countdown and any other show, like the Breakfast programme. The production team want men and women to look smart and presentable; they don't want them looking as though they're dressed in a tent, but neither do they want them to look over-glamourised and over-sexualised and any requests to allow female contestants to wear a nice strapless, off-the-shoulder number would doubtless be declined.

I should be grateful for any comments from former contestants who have experience of this (or indeed Damian and the production team), so that I can write with some degree of authority.

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Gavin Chipper » Mon May 09, 2016 3:03 pm

Even if people are forced to dress a certain way, it's not exactly common knowledge so it's unlikely to affect applications.

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Malcolm James » Mon May 09, 2016 3:22 pm

The article about University Challenge said that students who had appeared on the show might talk to students thinking about doing so in later years and that this might put them off.

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Countdown Team » Mon May 09, 2016 5:58 pm

All we specify is no logos, ie Adidas Nike etc......for obvious advertising reasons.

Aside from that, we have no input into what contestants wear and don't wish to have.

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Rhys Benjamin » Mon May 09, 2016 6:35 pm

Countdown Team wrote:All we specify is no logos, ie Adidas Nike etc......for obvious advertising reasons.

Aside from that, we have no input into what contestants wear and don't wish to have.
I was told I wasn't allowed white or blue shirts either.
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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Graeme Cole » Mon May 09, 2016 6:39 pm

Rhys Benjamin wrote:
Countdown Team wrote:All we specify is no logos, ie Adidas Nike etc......for obvious advertising reasons.

Aside from that, we have no input into what contestants wear and don't wish to have.
I was told I wasn't allowed white or blue shirts either.
No blue? Is that new? Or is it just don't wear the same shade of blue as the backdrop, so it doesn't look like there's a disembodied head asking for letters?

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Malcolm James » Mon May 09, 2016 8:13 pm

The article on University Challenge included claims that female contestants were asked to wear false eyelashes and to wear clothes which emphasised their cleavage (whilst presumably keeping everything covered). Doesn't sound as though countdown goes in for anything like this, even assuming that what's in the article about university Challenge is actually true.

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Jennifer Steadman » Mon May 09, 2016 8:58 pm

Malcolm James wrote:I write guest blogs for someone in the US and one of the things I've questioned is the dominant narrative that the male dominance of activities such as Countdown or chess is due solely to social conditioning ( http://boysmeneducation.com/nature-vers ... ditioning/ ). This imbalance in Countdown has so far escaped public comment, but there has been comment on a similar imbalance in University Challenge ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens ... enter.html ). One of the former female contestants has commented on the way that female contestants are forced to dress as factor which might put women off. I am sceptical about this, and the other societal reasons put forward, and I want to write a follow-up piece.
In addition to what's already been said: all of that. I managed to get away with a pretty low cut dress in my octorun, but that was my choice of outfit. I've never heard of this as being a reason why someone wouldn't apply for Countdown.

On the gender front: worth noting that the whole pool of contestants is male-dominated, not just its successes. Ann Dibben had 8 male opponents during her recent and awesome octorun, Tricia Pay only ever faced men in her 10 games, I only ever played 1 woman out of 11 different opponents. There was a 6 week period at the start of Series 65 where there wasn't a single female contestant. I would be interested to know, if Countdown Team would be willing to say, whether applications for the show are just as male-dominated.

Apterous used to be male-dominated to the point where one of the in-game features, Top Dog, always referred to the player as 'sir' until a few years ago (when I requested it be changed), and there were quite a few comments in main chat like "Women can't do numbers" or "Women aren't good at this". Personally I found it angered me into wanting to level the playing field, especially when I found there hadn't been a female series winner since 1998. But I would understand if others thought "Fuck this" and left.

The male domination has had an effect. Several women, inc me, have been patronised/sneered at by male opponents in the Green Room [example here]. Accusations have been levied (possibly in private; can't remember now) at several female octochamps that they've been deliberately given easy opponents. My series rival told me he was petrified of losing to me mostly because he was ashamed of the thought of losing to a girl. Then there was the time when one of the charming respondents in this thread allegedly told a series runner up that she and another series runner up were only invited to CoC as "token inclusions" owing to their gender. Good times! (And we've not even gotten onto sexual harassment...) Although it hasn't stopped me from loving the show/Apterous etc, stories such as those outlined have made my friends pretty wary of the community.
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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Gavin Chipper » Mon May 09, 2016 10:41 pm

Jennifer Steadman wrote:Tricia Pay only ever faced men in her 10 games
That's heartless. She was facing a lot more than that.
there were quite a few comments in main chat like "Women can't do numbers"
I'm guilty of that except with Scrabblers rather than women. I can only apologise.

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Malcolm James » Tue May 10, 2016 9:21 am

I think one of the problems with female contestants being patronised by their opponents comes down to the fact that they are nerds and social skills are not their forte. I would certainly hope that the production team would have a quiet word with anyone behaving in the manner described.

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Jennifer Steadman » Tue May 10, 2016 10:41 am

Malcolm James wrote:I think one of the problems with female contestants being patronised by their opponents comes down to the fact that they are nerds and social skills are not their forte. I would certainly hope that the production team would have a quiet word with anyone behaving in the manner described.
I don't know about Hazel's experience, but this is certainly not true of the occasions I've either seen it happen or been involved with. (There does need to be more of a willingness to say when someone's being a dickhead backstage though, rather than worrying that you'll cause trouble.) It's true of many of the Apterous/community-based incidents though - we just need to be careful to distinguish that while poor social skills may explain it, it doesn't excuse it.

BTW, I'm just running some stats on female finalists/octochamps. I'm quite surprised to learn that the 5 years prior to Apterous's inception was even more male-dominated than it has been since (in fact, with the exception of the past few series, women have typically made up at least a quarter of series finalists since Apterous was launched in 2008 - prior to that, there was only 1 series between 49 and 58 that had more than one woman in the finals).
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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Malcolm James » Tue May 10, 2016 11:09 am

i have also done some similar statistical analysis going back to the start of 2002 (the start of the 15-round era) and have also noticed that things were VERY male-dominated for a number of years, but have become somewhat less so. I attributed that largely to random chance, but you may be right about the effect of Apterous.

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Jennifer Steadman » Tue May 10, 2016 11:29 am

There's not a huge difference statistically between 15R era and 9R era, actually. 12.5% of octochamps in the 15R era have been women; 15% in the 9R era. There is a slightly bigger, but not massive, difference between percentage of women finalists between eras (25% for the 9R era, 17% for the 15R era).

If you look at just post-Apterous series, it's 14% octochamps and 21% finalists.

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Malcolm James » Tue May 10, 2016 11:34 am

Jennifer Steadman wrote:It's true of many of the Apterous/community-based incidents though - we just need to be careful to distinguish that while poor social skills may explain it, it doesn't excuse it.
No it doesn't, but we have to distinguish between people just being a p***k and behaviour which is either designed to patronise and belittle women or where they behave towards female contestants very differently than towards male contestants. One of the points that I want to make in my blogpost is that boys are often cruel towards each other, but are expected to take it if they dish it out. They will pick on characteristics which set someone apart, such as being ginger or having ears that stick out, and sometimes when girls or women feel they are being picked on for their gender, they are just being treated the same way as the boys. Unfortunately in these sorts of things, there will always be occasions where people overstep the mark.

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Jennifer Steadman » Tue May 10, 2016 12:00 pm

Malcolm James wrote:
Jennifer Steadman wrote:It's true of many of the Apterous/community-based incidents though - we just need to be careful to distinguish that while poor social skills may explain it, it doesn't excuse it.
No it doesn't, but we have to distinguish between people just being a p***k and behaviour which is either designed to patronise and belittle women or where they behave towards female contestants very differently than towards male contestants. One of the points that I want to make in my blogpost is that boys are often cruel towards each other, but are expected to take it if they dish it out. They will pick on characteristics which set someone apart, such as being ginger or having ears that stick out, and sometimes when girls or women feel they are being picked on for their gender, they are just being treated the same way as the boys. Unfortunately in these sorts of things, there will always be occasions where people overstep the mark.
Yes, this is also true (although seeing as over half the population of both Britain and Ireland is female, it's pretty unbelievable that this is defined as something which sets someone apart!). I suppose you could say that, while I certainly don't think my 2nd opponent would have been so uppity if he'd been playing someone like him, he possibly would have been just as aloof if he'd played an 21-year-old guy. Could be an age, class or personality thing, or maybe it goes back to the 'I can't lose to a GIRL' mentality (which is pathetic, but not unique to Countdown).

(The other incident was definitely gender-based, though, and did overstep the mark.)
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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Malcolm James » Tue May 10, 2016 12:13 pm

Jennifer Steadman wrote:Yes, this is also true (although seeing as over half the population of both Britain and Ireland is female, it's pretty unbelievable that this is defined as something which sets someone apart!).
If a girl were the only girl in a school chess club it would.

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Gavin Chipper » Tue May 10, 2016 2:46 pm

Malcolm James wrote:What sort of dress and make-up do the production team insist on for contestants appearing on the show? I am asking this for a serious reason.

I write guest blogs for someone in the US and one of the things I've questioned is the dominant narrative that the male dominance of activities such as Countdown or chess is due solely to social conditioning ( http://boysmeneducation.com/nature-vers ... ditioning/ ). This imbalance in Countdown has so far escaped public comment, but there has been comment on a similar imbalance in University Challenge ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens ... enter.html ). One of the former female contestants has commented on the way that female contestants are forced to dress as factor which might put women off. I am sceptical about this, and the other societal reasons put forward, and I want to write a follow-up piece.

I imagine that what they do on University Challenge is no different from what they do on Countdown and any other show, like the Breakfast programme. The production team want men and women to look smart and presentable; they don't want them looking as though they're dressed in a tent, but neither do they want them to look over-glamourised and over-sexualised and any requests to allow female contestants to wear a nice strapless, off-the-shoulder number would doubtless be declined.

I should be grateful for any comments from former contestants who have experience of this (or indeed Damian and the production team), so that I can write with some degree of authority.
I've just read your piece. While interesting, I'm not sure I agree with all of it.
If a girl has an aptitude for maths, no-one is going to be able to tell her that ‘little girls can’t do maths’. She will just laugh at the suggestion.
Do you know that? A girl who is good at maths might be good at lots of other things as well, and if she gets the impression that other subjects are more "for girls" (even if it's not someone explicitly saying "Little girls can't do maths"), she might be more inclined to pursue something else.
However, if a girl struggles at maths (and plenty of girls and boys do struggle), this becomes a justification for not trying. Talented individuals tend to be driven. For example, if a boy is an avid reader and has great aptitude for English, he will not be put off by being asked to read ‘girly’ books in class, but will seek out books he enjoys reading from the local library.
Do talented individuals tend to be driven? I don't know. No-one is born good at reading anyway, so unless someone gets into it into the first place, their talent might not be used.
Similarly, if required to learn a musical instrument, children without a particular musical aptitude might tend to be influenced by societal pressure in their choice of instrument, e.g. flute for girls or trombone or drums for boys. However, if a boy is a future solo flautist of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra he will believe that he was put on this Earth to play the flute and will allow nothing, but nothing, to stand in his way.
And particularly this. I'm sure plenty of people who could have potentially been a future solo flautist of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra never got past the stage where they had to start making a real effort.
Not only are talented, driven individuals resistant to societal pressures
As I say, I'd question the "talented" bit, but the driven individuals are likely to be the ones that have already got over the social pressures, if they felt there were any. It effectively takes a decision to become driven in a particular field in the first place and social pressures may affect where someone's drive ends up.

I also don't think that running is a brilliant analogy to more "mental" skills. It's not just the elite male athletes that stand out. It's really noticeable to a jobbing runner like me that there are far fewer female runners at my level than males. There is a clear and noticeable physical strength difference between males and females, that isn't clear with mental abilities.

Anyway, I'm not saying I disagree with everything you've said. It could be that there are genetic reasons for there being more men at the absolute top of certain fields. There's a school of thought that there's generally more "freaks" among males than females - in a good and bad way. For example, most females can generally get by socially in the world, whereas you get quite a lot of completely socially inept males. Basically higher variance in the male population all round could mean more males at the absolute top. But that might be barking up the wrong tree.

But going back to Countdown in particular, I don't think it's an ability cap there that stops females. Countdown is very much a game where most people who practice could reach a very high level. Not everyone will be Conor Travers, but most people could be probable octochamps and with a decent chance of winning a series.

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Ciaran McCarthy » Mon May 16, 2016 2:44 pm

Rhys Benjamin wrote:
Countdown Team wrote:All we specify is no logos, ie Adidas Nike etc......for obvious advertising reasons.

Aside from that, we have no input into what contestants wear and don't wish to have.
I was told I wasn't allowed white or blue shirts either.
I was wearing blue shirt when i was on recording....is it changed after 2014?

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Tim Down » Mon May 16, 2016 8:39 pm

Ciaran McCarthy wrote: I was wearing blue shirt when i was on recording....is it changed after 2014?
Not that I'm aware of. I wore several blue-ish shirts on the show, most recently the series finals in April. Perhaps shirts that closely match the colour of the set would be a problem.

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by James Laverty » Tue May 17, 2016 12:19 pm

Tim Down wrote:
Ciaran McCarthy wrote: I was wearing blue shirt when i was on recording....is it changed after 2014?
Not that I'm aware of. I wore several blue-ish shirts on the show, most recently the series finals in April. Perhaps shirts that closely match the colour of the set would be a problem.
I remember both Dan and Dylan wearing navy during CoC. Probably is just royal blue and similar shades. Can anyone who was on the show before the current set introduced remember if there was a similar guideline for the old set?
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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Stewart Gordon » Tue May 17, 2016 6:02 pm

Malcolm James wrote:What sort of dress and make-up do the production team insist on for contestants appearing on the show? I am asking this for a serious reason.
I was on in 2007. What I remember being told is:
  • Not white
  • No logos or patterns, other than wide stripes
  • Preferably not round-necked T-shirts for men (why men specifically I don't know, but I knew this was merely a preference)
But you could well ask to what extent contestants' outfits followed the written rules. But my advice to anyone going on would be "if in doubt, try it out".
Malcolm James wrote:This imbalance in Countdown has so far escaped public comment, but there has been comment on a similar imbalance in University Challenge ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens ... enter.html ).
I've just had a quick look at that article. It's hard to believe how people manage to be victims of such sexist treatment in this day and age.

(But people who can't get their heads around something as basic as the difference between "I" and "me" shouldn't be even allowed into university, let alone on University Challenge....)
Malcolm James wrote:I imagine that what they do on University Challenge is no different from what they do on Countdown and any other show, like the Breakfast programme. The production team want men and women to look smart and presentable; they don't want them looking as though they're dressed in a tent, but neither do they want them to look over-glamourised and over-sexualised and any requests to allow female contestants to wear a nice strapless, off-the-shoulder number would doubtless be declined.
And requests to allow them to wear a horrid strapless, off-the-shoulder number would be accepted? :)

No, seriously, we can't know where they will draw the line unless they tell us. Moreover, if they're about not having them looking over-glamorised and over-sexualised, would they apply the same standard here to the host, arithmetician and DC as they do to contestants?

Maybe what we should be asking is: Has any of you ever been told that the outfit in which you've emerged from the dressing room is unacceptable and been instructed to change?

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by James Laverty » Wed May 18, 2016 2:26 pm

Graeme Cole wrote:
Rhys Benjamin wrote:
Countdown Team wrote:All we specify is no logos, ie Adidas Nike etc......for obvious advertising reasons.

Aside from that, we have no input into what contestants wear and don't wish to have.
I was told I wasn't allowed white or blue shirts either.
No blue? Is that new? Or is it just don't wear the same shade of blue as the backdrop, so it doesn't look like there's a disembodied head asking for letters?
I think watching today proves blue is allowed, since Robin is wearing a blue shirt, and Rachel's dress seems to be rather close to the colour of the set.
Definitely not Jamie McNeill or Schrodinger's Cat....

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Karen Pearson » Tue May 24, 2016 2:04 pm

I don't have the dress guidelines that were issued for Countdown when I was on, but I do recall they were relatively easy to comply with. Here is an example of what other shows state:
"Due to television cameras and lights causing a lot of restrictions on what you can wear, please read the following very carefully and adhere to the rules:
Please bring a choice of FIVE outfits (or 5 tops and 2 bottoms) that fit the below criteria and a mix of colours. We really want to see everyone’s individualism so if you have a particular style then do let it shine through. Just remember you will be watching this show back at some point so you will want to look your best. The basic rule is smart/casual.
THINGS TO AVOID
• NO BLACK TOPS.
• NO PLAIN WHITE TOPS/TSHIRTS.
• No very light pastel colours such as yellow, pale pink, lilac.
• No shiny material such as satin or taffeta.
• No ripped jeans.
• No checks and stripes. Some patterns cause the camera to strobe so be really careful with your selection!
• No logos or any form of advertising on them - no matter how small (even Lacoste etc).
• Avoid thin or see-through fabrics as studio lighting greatly emphasises transparency (unless you have very suitable and deliberate under layers)
TIPS ON WHAT TO WEAR
• Stronger, vibrant colours look good on camera.
• Imagine your dressing for an informal dinner date, or out with people you'd like to impress
• Clothes must be appropriate for a show screened at a family-friendly time.
FOOTWEAR
• Please do not wear scruffy trainers.

• Ladies, due to health and safety regulations DO NOT WEAR HIGH HEELS. Low kitten heels may be acceptable but bring flat choices just in case.

JEWELLERY
Please keep jewellery to a minimum and avoid anything too heavy or dangly as the microphones are sensitive and will pick up even the slightest jangling. "


This was a for a single-appearance show (i.e. not like Countdown where you might end up filming 8 shows). On more than one occasion, I have had every single outfit rejected and have had to wear something the production company has given me. However, never has anyone tried to make me wear something I'm uncomfortable with, and usually the reason for rejection is due to colours clashing with the set. And my husband, who's also been on a few shows, has had all of his outfits rejected too on occasion too. In fact, on the show above, one of the ladies was given a cardigan to wear, as her top was blending into the background. So, I have never encountered a production company trying to make the women dress in a particular way, or in a different way from the men, for a quiz show.

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Jon Corby » Tue May 24, 2016 2:47 pm

James Laverty wrote:I think watching today proves blue is allowed, since Robin is wearing a blue shirt, and Rachel's dress seems to be rather close to the colour of the set.
fucks sake spoilers

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Fred Mumford » Tue May 24, 2016 8:09 pm

Jon Corby wrote: fucks sake spoilers
The set's been that colour for about 7 years.

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Re: Dress and make-up when appearing on show

Post by Gavin Chipper » Tue May 24, 2016 8:14 pm

Fred Mumford wrote:
Jon Corby wrote: fucks sake spoilers
The set's been that colour for about 7 years.
He's so far behind he still doesn't know that he loses to Charlie Reams.

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