Sports puzzles

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sean d
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Sports puzzles

Post by sean d » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:43 pm

Trivial questions for the great minds around here, but anyway, here's two for the weekend.

With the World Snooker Championship on the telly, We all know the maximum* total clearance break is 147, but what is the smallest total clearance break available?
(*actual maximum break is 155 with the use of a free ball to start)

And a slightly more annoying one to try and work out.... in darts what is the lowest 'bogey' number, ie the lowest number (greater than 1, less than 170) that cannot be checked out in 3 darts.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Graeme Cole » Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:55 pm

sean d wrote:Trivial questions for the great minds around here, but anyway, here's two for the weekend.

With the World Snooker Championship on the telly, We all know the maximum* total clearance break is 147, but what is the smallest total clearance break available?
(*actual maximum break is 155 with the use of a free ball to start)
In theory you could pot all 15 reds in one shot, then pot the yellow, then clear up all six colours for 44.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Jon O'Neill » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:30 pm

Graeme Cole wrote:
sean d wrote:Trivial questions for the great minds around here, but anyway, here's two for the weekend.

With the World Snooker Championship on the telly, We all know the maximum* total clearance break is 147, but what is the smallest total clearance break available?
(*actual maximum break is 155 with the use of a free ball to start)
In theory you could pot all 15 reds in one shot, then pot the yellow, then clear up all six colours for 44.
I've done this.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Graeme Cole » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:00 pm

Why are the high-value colours near the non-baulk end where they're easier to get to after potting reds? After you've potted a red, it's likely to be easier to pot the black or pink than one of the baulk colours, but you get more points for the easier shot than for the harder one.

Surely it makes more sense to put pink, black and blue on the baulk line in place of yellow, brown and green, and put yellow, green and brown in place of black, pink and blue?

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Gavin Chipper » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:20 pm

Graeme Cole wrote:Why are the high-value colours near the non-baulk end where they're easier to get to after potting reds? After you've potted a red, it's likely to be easier to pot the black or pink than one of the baulk colours, but you get more points for the easier shot than for the harder one.

Surely it makes more sense to put pink, black and blue on the baulk line in place of yellow, brown and green, and put yellow, green and brown in place of black, pink and blue?
I imagine some guy just made it all up years ago - there's so much about snooker that's arbitrary - and it just stuck.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by sean d » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:01 am

Grame, of course, is right. Graeme, of course, is always right. ;)

Regarding moving high value colours to the baulk end, I'm not sure if it'd make it more difficult for the better players. Sure you'd be moving up and down the table but you'd have a very large margin for error in terms of positioning on the baulk end colours.

No takers on the darts question.....

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Mark Deeks » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:22 am

Graeme Cole wrote:Why are the high-value colours near the non-baulk end where they're easier to get to after potting reds? After you've potted a red, it's likely to be easier to pot the black or pink than one of the baulk colours, but you get more points for the easier shot than for the harder one.

Surely it makes more sense to put pink, black and blue on the baulk line in place of yellow, brown and green, and put yellow, green and brown in place of black, pink and blue?

Break building would be a lot harder. And since break building is the fun part of the game, you don't want that.
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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Andy Platt » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:44 pm

Snooker720 might actually be brilliant to see professionals play. (See Chess960 i.e. randomly assigning the colours at the start of each game).

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Graeme Cole » Thu May 02, 2013 7:18 pm

Mark Deeks wrote:
Graeme Cole wrote:Why are the high-value colours near the non-baulk end where they're easier to get to after potting reds? After you've potted a red, it's likely to be easier to pot the black or pink than one of the baulk colours, but you get more points for the easier shot than for the harder one.

Surely it makes more sense to put pink, black and blue on the baulk line in place of yellow, brown and green, and put yellow, green and brown in place of black, pink and blue?
Break building would be a lot harder. And since break building is the fun part of the game, you don't want that.
Ricky Walden and Barry Hawkins clearly agree with me, as they've just spent about a quarter of an hour setting up the table like this...

Image

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Mark Deeks » Thu May 02, 2013 7:22 pm

And only a minimum of 13 more frames to go! Thrilling stuff lined up there.
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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Dave Preece » Sun May 12, 2013 8:59 pm

37 is the lowest TOTAL clearance...

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Ian Volante » Tue May 14, 2013 12:08 pm

Dave Preece wrote:37 is the lowest TOTAL clearance...
Explain that then!
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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Adam Gillard » Tue May 14, 2013 12:11 pm

Ian Volante wrote:
Dave Preece wrote:37 is the lowest TOTAL clearance...
Explain that then!
Presumably you go in-off the final black, so your break would score 37 and 7 foul points would be awarded to your opponent.
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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Ian Volante » Tue May 14, 2013 12:33 pm

Adam Gillard wrote:
Ian Volante wrote:
Dave Preece wrote:37 is the lowest TOTAL clearance...
Explain that then!
Presumably you go in-off the final black, so your break would score 37 and 7 foul points would be awarded to your opponent.
That's not a total clearance then, as the final black would be respotted, although this is moot as the frame would be over anyway.
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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Adam Gillard » Tue May 14, 2013 1:11 pm

Saw a break started on a colour in this year's World Championship, which for some reason had never occurred to me before. Can't remember who was playing, but he snookered himself having potted a red, then nominated green and missed at least one attempt, thus ending his break and conceding foul points to his opponent. He was put back in and subsequently escaped from the snooker, potting the green in the process, and starting a new break at 3 points.
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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Gavin Chipper » Tue May 14, 2013 1:21 pm

Ian Volante wrote:
Adam Gillard wrote:
Ian Volante wrote:
Explain that then!
Presumably you go in-off the final black, so your break would score 37 and 7 foul points would be awarded to your opponent.
That's not a total clearance then, as the final black would be respotted, although this is moot as the frame would be over anyway.
Yeah, cos if that counts, you might as well pot everything on your first shot and score nothing.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Ian Volante » Tue May 14, 2013 1:33 pm

Adam Gillard wrote:Saw a break started on a colour in this year's World Championship, which for some reason had never occurred to me before. Can't remember who was playing, but he snookered himself having potted a red, then nominated green and missed at least one attempt, thus ending his break and conceding foul points to his opponent. He was put back in and subsequently escaped from the snooker, potting the green in the process, and starting a new break at 3 points.
Interesting, I've never come across that one before.
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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Dave Preece » Wed May 15, 2013 6:46 am

In off final black, as Adam says, the black wouldn't get respotted, as the frame would be over?

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Dave Preece » Wed May 15, 2013 6:46 am

Ian Volante wrote:
Adam Gillard wrote:Saw a break started on a colour in this year's World Championship, which for some reason had never occurred to me before. Can't remember who was playing, but he snookered himself having potted a red, then nominated green and missed at least one attempt, thus ending his break and conceding foul points to his opponent. He was put back in and subsequently escaped from the snooker, potting the green in the process, and starting a new break at 3 points.
Interesting, I've never come across that one before.
Interesting, missed that one, and I watched nearly all of it!

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Ian Volante » Wed May 15, 2013 8:11 am

Dave Preece wrote:In off final black, as Adam says, the black wouldn't get respotted, as the frame would be over?
Well quite, but the final black hasn't been potted legally, so it's not a total clearance.
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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Dave Preece » Wed May 15, 2013 1:25 pm

Of cousre it is?

Thick as mince!

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Ian Volante » Wed May 15, 2013 3:01 pm

Dave Preece wrote:Of cousre it is?

Thick as mince!
A total clearance couldn't, and doesn't include a foul shot.
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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Ian Volante » Wed May 15, 2013 3:10 pm

Dave Preece wrote:Of cousre it is?

Thick as mince!
Or, to put it another way, say player A gives away 28 points in fouls at the early in the frame due to a fiendish snooker, but then flukes all fifteen reds on his eighth attempt and goes on to pot 1 yellow and all of the colours. However, he fouls the final black as per your scenario, leaving the score at 37-35. Player B comes to the table, pots the black, wins the frame.

By your logic, player A has made a total clearance and lost. A total clearance would not end with the black on the table available to be potted.
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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Dave Preece » Thu May 16, 2013 1:11 am

But that wouldnt be a scenario for the lowest possible total clearance wold it?

37 is the LOWEST POSSIBLE total clearnce, the table will be totally cleared of ALL BALLS, and the break will be 37!

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Gavin Chipper » Thu May 16, 2013 7:50 am

Dave Preece wrote:But that wouldnt be a scenario for the lowest possible total clearance wold it?

37 is the LOWEST POSSIBLE total clearnce, the table will be totally cleared of ALL BALLS, and the break will be 37!
If your scenario counts then so does mine and the lowest possible is 0. So it seems that the answer has to be 44 or 0. 37 is just some arbitrary compromise.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Ian Volante » Thu May 16, 2013 8:14 am

Gavin Chipper wrote:
Dave Preece wrote:But that wouldnt be a scenario for the lowest possible total clearance wold it?

37 is the LOWEST POSSIBLE total clearnce, the table will be totally cleared of ALL BALLS, and the break will be 37!
If your scenario counts then so does mine and the lowest possible is 0. So it seems that the answer has to be 44 or 0. 37 is just some arbitrary compromise.
Yep.

Even more logically, if you're going to ignore the rules of the game, why bother with all the potting? Just knock a cushion off and sweep the balls onto the floor.
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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Ian Volante » Thu May 16, 2013 8:16 am

Gavin Chipper wrote:
Graeme Cole wrote:Why are the high-value colours near the non-baulk end where they're easier to get to after potting reds? After you've potted a red, it's likely to be easier to pot the black or pink than one of the baulk colours, but you get more points for the easier shot than for the harder one.

Surely it makes more sense to put pink, black and blue on the baulk line in place of yellow, brown and green, and put yellow, green and brown in place of black, pink and blue?
I imagine some guy just made it all up years ago - there's so much about snooker that's arbitrary - and it just stuck.
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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Jon O'Neill » Thu May 16, 2013 8:41 am

Ian Volante wrote:
Gavin Chipper wrote:
Dave Preece wrote:But that wouldnt be a scenario for the lowest possible total clearance wold it?

37 is the LOWEST POSSIBLE total clearnce, the table will be totally cleared of ALL BALLS, and the break will be 37!
If your scenario counts then so does mine and the lowest possible is 0. So it seems that the answer has to be 44 or 0. 37 is just some arbitrary compromise.
Yep.

Even more logically, if you're going to ignore the rules of the game, why bother with all the potting? Just knock a cushion off and sweep the balls onto the floor.
Amazing.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Dave Preece » Thu May 16, 2013 7:23 pm

Potting ALL balls on the table in one shot scoring zero wouldn't be the end of the game though? ALL colours (not reds) would be respotted and play would continue!

The same would happen in Ian's even odder example? However, the LAST black potted legally or not, is the end of the game, unless scores are tied!

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Ryan Taylor » Thu May 16, 2013 7:34 pm

Two words: Jacintha Saldanha

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Innis Carson » Thu May 16, 2013 8:13 pm

What if someone pots all the balls on the first shot and then immediately concedes the frame?

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Mark James » Thu May 16, 2013 9:03 pm

Dave Preece wrote:However, the LAST black potted legally or not, is the end of the game, unless scores are tied!
Nope. The black can be respotted no matter what the scores are. People only don't play on when just the black is left because they don't reckon you can get a snooker but you could feasibly (well, as feasibly as potting all the red balls in one go) get the snooker by getting one or both of the balls in the jaws of the pockets.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Mark James » Thu May 16, 2013 9:11 pm

Mark James wrote:
Dave Preece wrote:However, the LAST black potted legally or not, is the end of the game, unless scores are tied!
Nope. The black can be respotted no matter what the scores are. People only don't play on when just the black is left because they don't reckon you can get a snooker but you could feasibly (well, as feasibly as potting all the red balls in one go) get the snooker by getting one or both of the balls in the jaws of the pockets.
Nope, ignore all that. I'm wrong. Dave is right.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by sean d » Thu May 16, 2013 11:29 pm

Interesting. I had 44 for my answer, but Dave's thrown a cat among the snooker playing pigeons. I think I'll stick with 44 though, it can't be considered a total clearance with a foul in it, imo.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Ian Volante » Thu May 16, 2013 11:59 pm

Hmm, we run into an impasse, purely since the term "total clearance" isn't actually defined as far as I can tell.
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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Dave Preece » Fri May 17, 2013 12:23 am

Ryan Taylor wrote:Two words: Jacintha Saldanha
Two words: read on...

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Dave Preece » Fri May 17, 2013 12:25 am

Innis Carson wrote:What if someone pots all the balls on the first shot and then immediately concedes the frame?
Why would they?

Thy would be 7-0 down, with 27 to play for?

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Dave Preece » Fri May 17, 2013 12:26 am

Mark James wrote:
Mark James wrote:
Dave Preece wrote:However, the LAST black potted legally or not, is the end of the game, unless scores are tied!
Nope. The black can be respotted no matter what the scores are. People only don't play on when just the black is left because they don't reckon you can get a snooker but you could feasibly (well, as feasibly as potting all the red balls in one go) get the snooker by getting one or both of the balls in the jaws of the pockets.
Nope, ignore all that. I'm wrong. Dave is right.
Just to clarify, when the black is gone, it's gone... Unless scores are level!

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Dave Preece » Fri May 17, 2013 12:29 am

sean d wrote:Interesting. I had 44 for my answer, but Dave's thrown a cat among the snooker playing pigeons. I think I'll stick with 44 though, it can't be considered a total clearance with a foul in it, imo.
It's a total clearance, I was first asked this question, and old the answer when I was about 9, it's an old question to say the least, good one tho...

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Dave Preece » Fri May 17, 2013 12:33 am

Ian Volante wrote:Hmm, we run into an impasse, purely since the term "total clearance" isn't actually defined as far as I can tell.
I suppose calling it a 'draw' is about as good as winning an argument against some of the bell ends on here who are that far up their own 'clever' arses that they are never wrong...

Well done me I say!

;-)

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Dave Preece » Fri May 17, 2013 12:35 am

PS

A total clearance is a TOTAL clearance of all 21 balls that ends the game.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Dave Preece » Fri May 17, 2013 12:37 am

Missing the last black on 37 doesn't end the game, as the oncoming player can get potting practice, score seven and save a whitewash — if he wished

Potting the black and going in off ends the frame.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Ian Volante » Fri May 17, 2013 10:25 am

Dave Preece wrote:
Ian Volante wrote:Hmm, we run into an impasse, purely since the term "total clearance" isn't actually defined as far as I can tell.
I suppose calling it a 'draw' is about as good as winning an argument against some of the bell ends on here who are that far up their own 'clever' arses that they are never wrong...

Well done me I say!

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Innis Carson » Fri May 17, 2013 3:41 pm

Dave Preece wrote:PS

A total clearance is a TOTAL clearance of all 21 balls that ends the game.
Even by this definition you could have a 'total clearance' of 0, if you twice fail to hit a red on the opening shot, and on the third attempt, pot all 21 balls having hit the pink first. By failing three times to hit the right ball when you had a clear shot at it, you automatically lose the frame.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Gavin Chipper » Tue May 21, 2013 4:04 pm

Innis Carson wrote:
Dave Preece wrote:PS

A total clearance is a TOTAL clearance of all 21 balls that ends the game.
Even by this definition you could have a 'total clearance' of 0, if you twice fail to hit a red on the opening shot, and on the third attempt, pot all 21 balls having hit the pink first. By failing three times to hit the right ball when you had a clear shot at it, you automatically lose the frame.
Nice. But even with the conceding thing where Dave asked why you would do it, it doesn't matter why - the fact is you could!

Edit - I suppose you could argue in your case that the total clearance doesn't end the game. The game is over with the hit pink and the others just happen to follow it in. And with conceding, it's the act of conceding not the clearance. But it's open to interpretation as the definition is just a passive description and not part of the game.
Last edited by Gavin Chipper on Tue May 21, 2013 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Gavin Chipper » Tue May 21, 2013 4:08 pm

By the way what are the rules on referee errors? If a referee miscounted a break and insisted he was right, would that be final? If so, you could have a total clearance of -79. And yeah the game would end because the referee says so.

Edit - Is a football referee required to keep count of the scores or they just assumed? But then what would happen in a game that could go to extra time and the referee disagrees about whether it should?

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Graeme Cole » Tue May 21, 2013 8:44 pm

Gavin Chipper wrote:By the way what are the rules on referee errors? If a referee miscounted a break and insisted he was right, would that be final? If so, you could have a total clearance of -79. And yeah the game would end because the referee says so.

Edit - Is a football referee required to keep count of the scores or they just assumed? But then what would happen in a game that could go to extra time and the referee disagrees about whether it should?
Years ago I read somewhere that a football referee (no idea what level) miscounted the score of the match. Team A beat Team B 3-1. The ref then went into the dressing rooms after 90 minutes to get the players out for extra time. Both teams agreed that the score was 3-1 to Team A, but the referee was having none of it, and insisted it was 2-2. They played extra time and the team that had actually lost the match went on to win.

I can't find any authority for that story, but there's a similar one here.

Incidentally, in searching the web for unusual football phenomena I've found this strange match between Barbados and Grenada in a tournament with such unusual rules that it was in Barbados' interest to score an own goal, then in Grenada's interest to score a goal or an own goal with the result that Barbados had to defend both ends.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Martin Long » Thu May 30, 2013 5:18 pm

159 is the lowest bogey number for the darts question.

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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by sean d » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:08 pm

gg wp Martin!
It's hard to give a satisfactory explanation of darts bogeys, but briefly...
It's fairly easy to find a checkout for any value up to 140.
From there you can check out all even numbers up to 160 using T20, T20 and a double.
And all odd numbers up to 157 using T20, T19 and a double.
The lowest number not covered so far is 159, and there's no way to check it out using one or more bulls.

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Mark Deeks
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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Mark Deeks » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:27 pm

Yes there is. Treble twenty, treble twenty, double nineteen and a half. Or treble twenty, single 49, bull.
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Dave Preece
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Re: Sports puzzles

Post by Dave Preece » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:53 am

I guess I was correct then...

Again!!!

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